Getting the best from your system...

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  • BTB
    Senior Member
    • Jan 2006
    • 198

    Getting the best from your system...

    With all the recent threads relating to whether amps or power cords make a difference, I thought I'd post a thread to encourage some thought/discussion around a recent upgrade I made, that we could all (make that should all) take the time to look into... room treatments. I would guess that the underlying reason for the "popularity" of the type of threads mentioned above (other than having a good fight!!) is that we all want to get the best out of our systems, and are prepared to investigate things that can help us squeeze the last bit of performance out of our costly investments.

    I recently had a acoustic professional come around to my place to assess my room. Like most, I don't have a dedicated space and therefore have to work around a room which is undoubtedly compromised from an optimal audio performance viewpoint. After a relaxed consultation (a bit of measurement, a bit of listening) the recommendation was for an absorption panel behind each speaker (set up is 2 channel) and a combination of absorption & mid range diffusion on the wall the speakers fire onto. Just for information... a flutter echo across my listening position (the brick walls in this area are parallel & rendered in smooth plaster & are therefore highly reflective) was the biggest problem I had indentified, LF build up is not a problem in my room so no bass trapping was required.

    My biggest concern was over damping the room & producing that characteristic lifeless, dry, unnatural sound quality, so I spent a lot of time over the space of a week & a half trying various combinations of panels, turns out I needn't have bothered to a large extent, the original suggestions were spot on anyway.

    Briefly, here is a list (in no specific order) of the improvements I've heard so far:

    1) Intelligibility of speech has improved (both audio & actual conversation)
    2) Bass notes are decidedly more articulate and seem slightly more extended with much greater impact.
    3) Stereo images are more holographic & soundstaging has improved in all 3 dimensions.

    In short the overall sound seems more focussed, and I have a sense of being left with only the "good stuff" now that all the muck (I.E reflections and the colourations they result in) has been removed.

    So, while amp/power cord type threads are more difficult to resolve, and the conclusions not always so clear... this is something I would confidently recommend to anyone who's serious about getting the most out of their system. I no longer consider room treatment a "tweak", but rather an essential component in the playback chain, which is unfortunately often overlooked.

    One wonders how many expensive equipment upgrades are done in the misguided hopes of rectifying a problem inherent to the room, not the electronics. If you have identified any serious acoustic problems in your room that have not yet been addressed, you might find, like me, that the benefits of sorting the room out far outstrip any of the other similar cost "tweaks" out there. Well worth investigating! :T
  • whoaru99
    Senior Member
    • Jul 2004
    • 638

    #2
    Originally posted by BTB
    One wonders how many expensive equipment upgrades are done in the misguided hopes of rectifying a problem inherent to the room, not the electronics. If you have identified any serious acoustic problems in your room that have not yet been addressed, you might find, like me, that the benefits of sorting the room out far outstrip any of the other similar cost "tweaks" out there. Well worth investigating! :T
    I'd wager far more than one really cares to know or believe.
    There are some things which are impossible to know, but it is impossible to know which things these are. :scratchhead:

    ----JAFFE'S PRECEPT

    Comment

    • dyazdani
      Moderator Emeritus
      • Oct 2005
      • 7032

      #3
      I built a room full of treatments for around $300. There is nothing out there that would have made as much an improvement for the price.

      I noticed the same things as the OP...
      Danish

      Comment

      • twitch54
        Senior Member
        • Apr 2006
        • 340

        #4
        BTB, You have hit the nail on the head !! Trouble is, it's not "sexy" to talk about room treatments like so much of the overpriced tweek crap that's out there !!
        Dave

        Comment

        • Chris D
          Moderator Emeritus
          • Dec 2000
          • 16877

          #5
          Okay... well what if you add naked girls in each corner? They'll absorb bass, and be very sexy.
          CHRIS

          Well, we're safe for now. Thank goodness we're in a bowling alley.
          - Pleasantville

          Comment

          • DelRay
            Senior Member
            • Jun 2004
            • 369

            #6
            I'm in agreement here. If you go the diy route, a little money towards treating your room will go a long way.

            Comment

            • dknightd
              Senior Member
              • Mar 2006
              • 621

              #7
              Originally posted by Chris D
              Okay... well what if you add naked girls in each corner? They'll absorb bass, and be very sexy.
              The WAF on naked girls is even lower than on acoutic panels
              Last edited by Chris D; 13 November 2016, 16:54 Sunday.

              Comment

              • Arneson
                Senior Member
                • Jan 2006
                • 240

                #8
                This requires a blind naked girl test, in the corners, on the sofa, stacked up front on the floor, then in the next room.
                Taking scanning spectrum readings for each position.
                Jim

                Comment

                • Martyn
                  Senior Member
                  • Feb 2006
                  • 380

                  #9
                  It's not that simple. You'd probably need big, buxom girls to absorb bass and skinny ones for the higher frequencies (let's not bother with subwoofers). To test this hypothesis with any real rigour, you'd have to find several pairs of identical twins of different builds.

                  Of course, you'd also need to be blindfolded which might take much of the fun out of it.

                  Comment

                  • bigburner
                    Super Senior Member
                    • May 2005
                    • 2649

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Chris D
                    Okay... well what if you add naked girls in each corner? They'll absorb bass, and be very sexy.
                    Chris, you've been on active duty overseas for too long...

                    Nigel.
                    Last edited by Chris D; 13 November 2016, 16:55 Sunday.

                    Comment

                    • Chris D
                      Moderator Emeritus
                      • Dec 2000
                      • 16877

                      #11
                      Yes, yes I have.

                      No argument there.

                      I've got two big blue balls right now the size of Bose cubes. (but much higher quality)
                      CHRIS

                      Well, we're safe for now. Thank goodness we're in a bowling alley.
                      - Pleasantville

                      Comment

                      • BTB
                        Senior Member
                        • Jan 2006
                        • 198

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Chris D
                        I've got two big blue balls right now the size of Bose cubes.
                        Well done guys... another worthwhile discussion for the benefit of the greater audio community. Class...
                        Last edited by Chris D; 13 November 2016, 16:55 Sunday.

                        Comment

                        • fauzigarib
                          Senior Member
                          • Aug 2006
                          • 216

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Arneson
                          This requires a blind naked girl test, in the corners, on the sofa, stacked up front on the floor, then in the next room.
                          Taking scanning spectrum readings for each position.
                          Naked girls... yes...

                          Blind naked girls, a big no no!



                          -Fauzi

                          Comment

                          • Club1820
                            Senior Member
                            • Jan 2006
                            • 269

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Chris D

                            I've got two big blue balls right now the size of Bose cubes. (but much higher quality)
                            A mental picture I did not need! Think naked women FAST! OK now! whew!
                            Last edited by Chris D; 13 November 2016, 16:55 Sunday.
                            Rotel 1068, Rotel 1060, Rotel 1055, Rotel 1095, Rotel 956, Rotel RLC-1040, M&K VX-860 Sub, Whatmough M30s, Squeezebox 3

                            Comment

                            • twitch54
                              Senior Member
                              • Apr 2006
                              • 340

                              #15
                              Originally posted by BTB
                              Well done guys... another worthwhile discussion for the benefit of the greater audio community. Class...

                              BTB, I understand, again I trully believe that people would rather argue the non-senseical benifits of overpriced cables, etc. than address the more than valid points you brought up. I recently read where someone was looking for the "Holy Grail" of speaker cable that would give his speakers the bass they were supposedly lacking !! It's obvious that he has bought into so much of the cable BS and snake oil talk that he has lost sight of the real focus....... the inherint design / specs of his speakers and the interaction of the room in which they are playing !!
                              Dave

                              Comment

                              • pearsall001
                                Member
                                • Dec 2005
                                • 77

                                #16
                                I heartily agree that room treatments are one of the most worthwhile investments one can make. Since I've added treatments my room has been transformed. If you haven't done any yet, what are you waiting for? By the way (if you don't mind) what did the pro acoustic guy charge you for his services? And were his findings helpfull & worth the expense.

                                Comment

                                • Chris D
                                  Moderator Emeritus
                                  • Dec 2000
                                  • 16877

                                  #17
                                  (sorry) ops:
                                  CHRIS

                                  Well, we're safe for now. Thank goodness we're in a bowling alley.
                                  - Pleasantville

                                  Comment

                                  • fauzigarib
                                    Senior Member
                                    • Aug 2006
                                    • 216

                                    #18
                                    Room Treatments...

                                    Hey all!

                                    Great thread... Just the right time too for me!

                                    I'm finally done with my Living Room HT, and now I'm to the point where it sound really really good.

                                    However, I found that in order to get the optimal result, I would have to make it sound good for music, especially for complicated passages, and that would convert into more clarity and detail for movies also.

                                    Take Roger Waters' Amused to Death, for example. A very musically detailed album. I find that when there are simple vocals and music running, the room sounds tremendous! However, the minute wailing guitars come in, or the complication level of the music rises, the sound gets a little muddled and bright.

                                    Now I know that my HT is on the bright side. It's our living room, and it has concrete walls and ceiling, and marble floors! It has open passages, sound leaks... you name it... an installer's nightmare.

                                    However, with the little bit of know how that i have, and the flexibility of my Lexicon MC8, I've brought it to the point where movies are great fun and music sounds quite good on the whole.

                                    But how do I get started with room treatments? My problem is that in Pakistan, there is no such thing as an acoustic professional. And I don't want to just put up wall hangings without knowing where to put them...

                                    So my question to you guys is this: If you were doing what an acoustic professional does... how would you get started?

                                    Fauzi

                                    PS: Chris, I still owe you some pics of my HT.. I've just been really lazy... I promise, in a day or so!

                                    Comment

                                    • twitch54
                                      Senior Member
                                      • Apr 2006
                                      • 340

                                      #19
                                      [QUOTE=fauzigarib]Hey all!

                                      Great thread... Just the right time too for me!

                                      However, I found that in order to get the optimal result, I would have to make it sound good for music, especially for complicated passages, and that would convert into more clarity and detail for movies also.

                                      Fauzi

                                      I must say , you too have hit the nail on the head ! For I also believe that if one gets the music reproduced the way it should be, ie. two channel part of the system correct than the HT / surround will more easily fall into place. A big reason why so many of the "dedicated" HT systems sound lousy on good two channel music, IMO.
                                      Dave

                                      Comment

                                      • dknightd
                                        Senior Member
                                        • Mar 2006
                                        • 621

                                        #20
                                        A good place to start is


                                        The two most important things imo are broadband bass absorbers in as many corners as possible (a simple 6" thick rigid fiberglass panel stradling the corner works pretty well) and absorbtion at the first refection points on the walls,floor,ceiling. Again easily made from rigid fiberglass. If you can't find rigid fiberglass, high density rockwool works just as well.
                                        There is a wealth of information on room treatments out there. A google search for "acoustic room treatments" should keep you busy for weeks. It is not too hard, or too expensive, to get tremendous benefit. The bang for the buck is probably greater than just about any other upgrade you can make.

                                        Comment

                                        • fauzigarib
                                          Senior Member
                                          • Aug 2006
                                          • 216

                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by dknightd
                                          A good place to start is


                                          The two most important things imo are broadband bass absorbers in as many corners as possible (a simple 6" thick rigid fiberglass panel stradling the corner works pretty well) and absorbtion at the first refection points on the walls,floor,ceiling. Again easily made from rigid fiberglass. If you can't find rigid fiberglass, high density rockwool works just as well.
                                          There is a wealth of information on room treatments out there. A google search for "acoustic room treatments" should keep you busy for weeks. It is not too hard, or too expensive, to get tremendous benefit. The bang for the buck is probably greater than just about any other upgrade you can make.
                                          Dknightd,

                                          Thanks... However, one question: How do I find the first point of reflection? Someone on this one forum told me about running a mirror along the walls and ceilings... I've just been lazy to do that.

                                          Also, another question: I downloaded the room node calculator also. Fed in my dimensions... Now what do I do with those?

                                          I have read the ethanwiner site a long time ago, and if I remember correctly, it was mainly about bass traps. Will certainly look again.

                                          Thanks,

                                          Fauzi

                                          Comment

                                          • dknightd
                                            Senior Member
                                            • Mar 2006
                                            • 621

                                            #22
                                            There are many ways to find the first reflection points. If you have accurate room diagrams and measurements you can do it mathematically, or graphically. Sound works like light and pool balls, the angle of reflection is the same as the angle of incedence (mostly - it doesn't have spin like a pool ball might, and, it diffracts more than light - but still a very useful approximation).
                                            I used the light bulb and mirror method. Hang a lightbulb between the tweeter and midrange of the speakers, sit in my seat, and ask somebody to move the mirror around till I could see the lightbulb in the mirror. You need to repeat this process for every reflective surface, and for all speakers, and all seats. I put little pencil marks on my walls and ceilings for all reflections, then made panels that more than covered my pencil marks. I have have hardwood floors, but am area rug covers most of the space between seats and speakers so I left that as is. If you are good at pool you might be able to guestimate the reflection points - just pretend you are shooting from your seat, and that the speaker is the target. A rule of thumb I read somewhere is if the first reflection point is more than 20 feet further away than the direct source you do not have to worry about it.
                                            The resonant node calculations are easy to perform, not very accurate since they assume solid walls and a rectangular room with no openings, but might still be useful. I'm no expert on this, but, here is how I use them. I try to make sure that my speakers and listening seat are not located right at a node or peak. I suspect I've got a lot to learn in this regard. So far I've found listening to be more useful than simple math. Basically I positioned my speakers and listening position as best as possible to avoid double nulls or peaks, then tweaked a little to make it sound as good as possible. This is where broadband absorbtion plays a big part. Yes rooms have modes, which should be avoided, but individual seating positions can also have bass reenforcement that does not seem to coincide to room modes.
                                            To some degree you have to play these things by ear. But don't let that stop you from trying it. Almost anything will make a big difference.
                                            My advise would be to put in as much broadband absorbers as possible in corners, then treat first reflection points with as thick absorbers as possible. It is easy to overdamp a room in HF and yet not have enough bass damping.
                                            Like speakers, room treatment is personal. You have to listen, measure, tweak, repeat.
                                            I used to make my own speakers, and tweak the speakers - now I have comercial speakers (b&w 703) and tweak the room instead. The speakers/room really are the most important things as near as I can tell.
                                            Well I better post this. . .

                                            Comment

                                            • David Meek
                                              Moderator Emeritus
                                              • Aug 2000
                                              • 8938

                                              #23
                                              If your first reflection point is 20 feet away - period - you are in a VERY large room.

                                              There's an inexpensive application called C.A.R.A. (Computer Aided Rooom Acoustics) that is very good for calculating your room effects. You build your room in the application (including types of materials used), add furniture, select your speakers (or create them if not in the pick list), put them in their proper locations and select the granularity of the calculations. Hit run and it goes to work. I'm very happy with it.

                                              FWIW, I'm still using v2.1. I just haven't gotten around to upgrading to v2.2.
                                              .

                                              David - Trigger-happy HTGuide Admin

                                              Comment

                                              • dyazdani
                                                Moderator Emeritus
                                                • Oct 2005
                                                • 7032

                                                #24
                                                Yeah, the 20ft thing comes from the brain's ability to separate sound. The mirror method works well assuming that you have a flat surface. I've got brick on one side and a mirror will not sit flat. It's not that hard to eyeball it for me though, especiall since my 1st reflection panel is only set up temporarily (can't leave it in front of the fireplace).

                                                I've got CARA as well, it's a neat program...
                                                Danish

                                                Comment

                                                • Club1820
                                                  Senior Member
                                                  • Jan 2006
                                                  • 269

                                                  #25
                                                  Instead of a light bulb and mirror, can you use a laser pointer? sit the laser pointer on top of the speaker and point it in the direction of sound. wherever the laser hits is the 1st reflection point.

                                                  Does that sound right? ???
                                                  Rotel 1068, Rotel 1060, Rotel 1055, Rotel 1095, Rotel 956, Rotel RLC-1040, M&K VX-860 Sub, Whatmough M30s, Squeezebox 3

                                                  Comment

                                                  • fauzigarib
                                                    Senior Member
                                                    • Aug 2006
                                                    • 216

                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by Club1820
                                                    Instead of a light bulb and mirror, can you use a laser pointer? sit the laser pointer on top of the speaker and point it in the direction of sound. wherever the laser hits is the 1st reflection point.

                                                    Does that sound right? ???
                                                    I'm on expert on this, but I figure that the focused laser beam might not account for the dispersion patterns of the speaker.

                                                    Although I have heard professionals using lasers... so maybe (read: most probably) I'm wrong.

                                                    Certainly won't be the first time.



                                                    Fauzi

                                                    Comment

                                                    • Briz vegas
                                                      Super Senior Member
                                                      • Mar 2005
                                                      • 1199

                                                      #27
                                                      Little observation. Since my amp came back from the fix it guy it has sounded brighter than I prefer. Last night I was listening to a track thinking "how do I fix this" and grabbed a big pillow that was sitting next to me and put it behind my head to have a more comfortable ponder. Instant improvement - it was almost like I had my old amp sound back. The big pillow blocked out the refection from the window and wall that is a foot behind my couch.

                                                      Looks like I will be out this weekend replacing my very thin curtains with some decent heavy curtains for that window behind my head.
                                                      Mac 8gb SSD Audirvana ->Weiss INT202 firewire interface ->Naim DAC & XPS2 DR->Conrad Johnson CT5 & LP70S-> Vivid B1s. Nordost Valhalla cables & resonance management. (Still waiting for Paul Hynes PS:M)
                                                      Siamese :evil: :twisted:

                                                      Comment

                                                      • dyazdani
                                                        Moderator Emeritus
                                                        • Oct 2005
                                                        • 7032

                                                        #28
                                                        Originally posted by Club1820
                                                        Instead of a light bulb and mirror, can you use a laser pointer? sit the laser pointer on top of the speaker and point it in the direction of sound. wherever the laser hits is the 1st reflection point.

                                                        Does that sound right? ???
                                                        The first reflection is the point where the sound reflects towards your seating position. Since the speakers are likely toed in, pointing a laser in that direction will not give you the right spot.
                                                        Danish

                                                        Comment

                                                        • Club1820
                                                          Senior Member
                                                          • Jan 2006
                                                          • 269

                                                          #29
                                                          Thank makes sense. thanks.
                                                          Rotel 1068, Rotel 1060, Rotel 1055, Rotel 1095, Rotel 956, Rotel RLC-1040, M&K VX-860 Sub, Whatmough M30s, Squeezebox 3

                                                          Comment

                                                          • wolfgang
                                                            Member
                                                            • Jul 2006
                                                            • 75

                                                            #30
                                                            Originally posted by BTB
                                                            I recently had a acoustic professional come around to my place to assess my room. Like most, I don't have a dedicated space and therefore have to work around a room which is undoubtedly compromised from an optimal audio performance viewpoint. After a relaxed consultation (a bit of measurement, a bit of listening) the recommendation was ......
                                                            Most interesting topic. Would you like to share more about the measurements that were done and why do you think those made important differences.

                                                            Comment

                                                            • chasw98
                                                              Super Senior Member
                                                              • Jan 2006
                                                              • 1360

                                                              #31
                                                              I ran across this looking for high WAF and a solution to controlling a room that is not dedicated. I found it very interesting.



                                                              Review here: http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/8nerve/8nerve.html

                                                              Comment

                                                              • dknightd
                                                                Senior Member
                                                                • Mar 2006
                                                                • 621

                                                                #32
                                                                Probably too small to do any real good. Still better than nothing I suppose.

                                                                Comment

                                                                • wolfgang
                                                                  Member
                                                                  • Jul 2006
                                                                  • 75

                                                                  #33
                                                                  Originally posted by chasw98
                                                                  I ran across this looking for high WAF and a solution to controlling a room that is not dedicated. I found it very interesting.



                                                                  Review here: http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/8nerve/8nerve.html
                                                                  No idea whether those are any good. However, I am extremely allergic to any product that have received a glowing review from 6moons. That website's famous for their glowing positive reviews on just about any tweaks.


                                                                  Comment

                                                                  • Race Car Driver
                                                                    Super Senior Member
                                                                    • Mar 2005
                                                                    • 1537

                                                                    #34
                                                                    Quote from link #2.
                                                                    "By acquiring a set, you go beyond dreaming of -- or saving for -- a dedicated music room. Is music not a social event that should be appreciated by you, your spouse and who knows who else? Or is it aural masturbation you are after in your own walled-off, sun-deprived listening room? "
                                                                    B&W

                                                                    Comment

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