Listening room size

[GregLett]

Hi gang,

What would be the smallest acceptable size to make a listening room, containing full
size speakers? A speaker like the Paradigm S8 for example.


Thanks.

[jim777]

A small room that worked fine for me was 10x11x8 feet. The smaller the room, the more room problems will affect higher frequencies. The most important is to avoid a square room because the same room modes would be excited in more than one direction (a 16x8x8 room would be hell on earth..).

If it is a dedicated room, working with absorption, etc. will also help a lot. Don't forget the floor and the ceiling. You can get good sound in a small room but it is harder.

Take a look in the forum on rooms ("spaced out" I think).

[GregLett]

Thanks, JIM. We are in the process of purchasing a house, and it's already starting.

The house has two rooms that we'll convert into HT/audio space. The question is weather we take the wall out, and make on large room, or have one large and one small room. I would very much like to have may own room, so I have to see how small I can make it.

[jim777]

When I look for a house the first thing I check is the size of the largest room...

[Chris D]

... and then make it the theater? We are all the same...

Reminds me of one of the best A/V ads I've ever seen... I think it was from Sony, it was a house blueprint, hand-drawn on a napkin. HUGE theater with all sorts of doohickeys penciled in, then around the border a tiny kitchen, bathroom, bedroom, etc.

[NoHype]

I've had two dedicated music/HT rooms and my smaller room sounded the best for 2-ch audio . The small room was roughly 12.7 x 16.2 x 7.6 . My new room is 14x20x7.11 , with a small hall 3x5 leading to a bathroom.

[GregLett]

I've had two dedicated music/HT rooms and my smaller room sounded the best for 2-ch audio . The small room was roughly 12.7 x 16.2 x 7.6 . My new room is 14x20x7.11 , with a small hall 3x5 leading to a bathroom.

What size speakers do you have in the small room?

[Chris D]

You know, my current dedicated theater that I've spent a lot of time building and using over the past 4 years is approx 12 x 22 w/ 8' ceilings. Of course, we'd always like to have the largest room possible for A/V, just like everybody would always LIKE to have a fancier car or bigger house. But you know what? I've found that my 12x22x8 room is really just about perfect. I've got it set up with a 10' screen and two rows of 3 seats each, and it works great. Not too tiny so that you're sitting on top of each other or don't have room for guests, but not so big that there's any wasted space or it feels cavernous. I don't ever have problems with headroom on the 2nd row riser, even with taller people.

I've crunched the numbers of standing room peaks and nodes for which spots in the room are best and worst for seating, and for my space-saving Salamander Matteo theater seats, my room is virtually perfect. 22' is fine, although I could use more length if I had it. (so to speak) 12' width is okay, although a wider room would really improve sound imaging. If I had wider seats, a wider room would become more vital for optimum seating placement. Same thing with the ceiling, a taller room would be nice and open up the room feel, but not necessary as I've made the 8' work just fine.

If I could pick where to add extra space, I'd absolutely add width first. Then height, then depth, from my room.

Just to point out, I have an additional 3x8' side alcove that houses my equipment. If I was trying to fit all the equipment in the room too, I'd need additional space for it to keep the room comfortable. Also, for those who are curious, one of the theater design gurus (I can't remember who) says that seating locations sound best for sound if you place them 2/3 of the way back in the length of the room, and at 1/3 and 2/3 of the width. If you can't go with the 3rds locations, next best placement is at the 3/5 of the length, and/or the 2/5 and 3/5 of the width.

For me, the centers of each of my theater seats are 28" away from each other in the same row, sharing a common armrest. Doing the math, if I put a row of three seats at the 1/5, 2/5, and 3/5 width markings, the overall room width should be 28 x 5 = 140" wide, or 11' 8". So like I said, the room dimensions are almost perfect for sound for the middle two seats, and the 3rd seat in the row just compromises its sound being at the 1/5 location closer to one wall. The open width at the 4/5 spot allows for a walkway for me to get by. (which comes out to 41", which works for me, but couldn't be any smaller, because I also have side columns housing my surround speakers which jut in)

If I keep my same seats and put the middle seat in the dead center of the room, (where you don't want it to be due to standing waves) and put the outer two seats at the more optimal 1/3 and 2/3 spots, now I have two seat widths between the optimal spots, or 56". The optimal room width for this configuration would be 56 x 3 = 168", or 14'. Now the center seat would be the one with compromised sound, but the outer two seats would have even better sound than before. The only thing is, now I have only 39" of space between the end of each row and the closest wall. It would be symmetrical, though.

The only thing that jumps out at me is that if you do go with the 1/3 and 2/3 placement, now if you sit in one or the other, the side surrounds are not going be equal in distance, so the closest side surround will sound louder. If you sit at the 2/3 position on the right side of the room, the sound coming from the right surround will sound louder. Not balanced--the sound from the left surround speaker has to travel TWICE as far to get to your ear than the right. In contrast, if you go with the 2/5 and 3/5, while you're still lopsided sitting at one of these or the other, but not as bad. So if you're sitting at the 3/5 position on the right side of the room, now the sound from the left speaker only has to travel 1.5 times as far to get to your ear than the right speaker. Soooooooooo......

Again, if I keep the SAME seats, and do the same thing with the center seat in the middle of the room width, but now the outer two seats at the 2/5 and 3/5 again, instead of the 1/3 and 2/3 as discussed, now the optimal room width comes out to 56 x 5 = 280", or 23' 4". That's a WIDE room, allowing for much better sound imaging, and I could fit even more seats in, although they would be at locations with more compromised sound. Also more walkway on the sides of each row to get to the next row or to the front/back of the room.

Okay, what I if I say I want to go with the 3rd scenario of a 280" wide room, given my current chair width? Well, using Sepmeyer's Golden Room Ratios as discussed in this article here: http://www.hometheaterbuilder.com/issue/OptRmDim.htm you have three choices. For a ceiling height of C, the three optimal room measurements are:

Sepmeyer's 3 Golden Room Ratios

Room Type/ Ceiling Height/ Room Width/ Room Depth
Room 1/ C/ 1.14C/ 1.39C
Room 2/ C/ 1.28C/ 1.54C
Room 3/ C/ 1.60C/ 2.33C

So doing some reverse math, I come up with these dimensions:

Room Type/ Ceiling Height/ Room Width/ Room Depth/
Room 1/ 245"/ 280"/ 341"
Room 2/ 218"/ 280"/ 337"
Room 3/ 175"/ 280"/ 408"

Wow, those are some BIG, BIG rooms. The smallest of those ceiling heights is just under 15', with a corresponding depth of 34'. Trying to plan around these exact numbers can give you some really, really funky numbers. Notice also that I was basing my initial calculations on TWO of my theater seats being in equally prime "sweet spot" locations. If I just put one seat in the "sweet" spot of 1/3, 2/5, 3/5, or 2/3 room width, and care less about the rest, then I'm really not constrained by ANY overall room width, and can just focus on the Golden Room Ratios.

Whew! That was a lot of unsolicited typing.

[NoHype]

What size speakers do you have in the small room?

Greg , I'm no longer useing the small room for HT/music . When I was I had 4 Boston Acoustics tower's , these speakers had dual 5 1/4 drivers in them so they are far from full range speakers . I had them x-overed at 60hz to an SVS 20-39pci .

I had a friend who met on another audio forum come over with his RTA and the room had very little issues . I cant remeber the exact problem spots but the peaks were at all under 5d .

My remarks about my smaller room sounding better were not meant to say that all smaller rooms will sound better , far from it . I was just trying to make the point that with some acoustic treatments and trying to keep the room dimensions in check you can still have a fine sounding room even if it is small.

The new room I moved into has not been as kind to me , as if my Bostsons didnt have enough problems ...lol

[GregLett]

Well hopefully I'll be in the new house by September 1'st. I've decided
to go with my own listening, so I'm looking at 8x8x10 - 8x10x12 can't really
remember.

so it looks like I'll have to go with a stand mount speaker design.
First on audition list is the Paradigm S4, any others I should
consider? 4K is the max range.


Thanks.

[Snap]

Well hopefully I'll be in the new house by September 1'st. I've decided
to go with my own listening, so I'm looking at 8x8x10 - 8x10x12 can't really
remember.

so it looks like I'll have to go with a stand mount speaker design.
First on audition list is the Paradigm S4, any others I should
consider? 4K is the max range.


Thanks.

Same boat as me...... Sept 1st is moving day provided we close on the home Aug 31st. A speaker that has a huge sound field in that price range is Totem. Mites, Dream Catchers, and there are a few others that would work great in those rooms. But hey I am bias toward totems...... I got some.

[GregLett]

Thanks Snap, I'll add that to the list. I was also looking at the Thiel PCS speaker, anyone hear heard them?

I was really set against a sub sat setup, but I think now I'll have no choice.
I'll just have to get a really good sub sat setup.

[GregLett]

well finally moved into our new home. The first house didn't pan out so things took awhile.

this house has a basement. The listening area I can scare up is
10 x 14 x 6 w/L/H.
the height is a bummer but oh well.

[Chris D]

Yay, Greg! Well, the way you're going to have to deal with that, is just realize that you'll be inconvenienced entering and leaving the room, but all the time you spend IN it, you'll be sitting. Perhaps reclining?

[GregLett]

Yay, Greg! Well, the way you're going to have to deal with that, is just realize that you'll be inconvenienced entering and leaving the room,
but all the time you spend IN it, you'll be sitting. Perhaps reclining?

well i'm ony 5' 7 so that's not an issue for me. I just have to get it treated correctly. I guess.