Aragon 4004 Power Amp

[chasw98]

First post over here. I am usually in the DIY section. I want to buy a used high end amp. I have an Outlaw 950 pre/pro and WWMT DIY speakers. I am currently using a Behringer EP2500 power amp to drive them. I believe an Aragon 4004 or 8008 would serve me better. I'd also consider Bryston if they were that much better, but that much better means more money. Ahhh, some day, maybe. Anyway, any opinions on Aragon power amps? Thanks.

Chuck

[ThomasW]

4004's are REALLY old, so I'd worry about the caps and other components. Aragon's in general run a bit toasty. The 8008 have a newer heat sink design and displace the heat better.

Generally people characterize Aragon amps a 'dry', I agree with that assessment.

The SQ of Bryston depends on the model. Some of the older ones were a bit strident, and should be avoided for use on main speakers.

[chasw98]

So what would a "good value" high end power amp be? I've looked, listened, and read about McCormack, Krell, Bryston, and Aragon. You know, I want champagne on a beer budget, don't we all? The Aragon's intrigued me because they run in Class A, then change. They also have the capability for high watts (400, I believe) when needed.
I've listened and read about Parasound. I've owned Mcintosh for years. I used to own Hafler mosfet kits 200 & 500 and they were very nice. I'm looking for good common sense recomendations, I guess. Thanks, Thomas.

This is part of a guide written by an Aragon owner -
"The 8000 series seem to run hotter than the 4000 series. The 8000 series uses greater bias for the output transistors leading to higher output while still in Class A mode. Don't be concerned, even the 4000 series will throw considerable power in Class A."

[ThomasW]

I'm a big fan of class A amps, but they're just so impractical given the ....HEAT

My only concern about the 4004 is their age. They were being paired up with Apogee speakers in 1988.

For a while one could get 8008's on Audiogon for ~$1000-$1200 all the time. Now they're few and far between.

I've never been a fan of Krell don't really know why.

I have a friend who uses McCormick. He used to work at a high-end store and had his pick of the products they sold. His choice was McCormick.

Classe' would be another brand to add to your list.

[Race Car Driver]

I have a Aragon 4004 running my N802s.

It works, it doesnt give off a whole lot of heat actually. My reciever gives off 3xs the heat and its not even powering any speakers most of the time.

Sound quality, well its hard to say, it sounds good, but I know its lacking on my speakers. They could use 2x the power easy. I dont have any complaints, its a quality piece, that IS old.
Works great, never had any issues with it other then wanting more power. I actually have a new amp purchased that I am waiting for, gonna give a Monster 3250 a shot. Couldnt pass up the price. I will now proceed to be flamed

Just my 2 cents.

[twitch54]

[QUOTE=chasw98]The Aragon's intrigued me because they run in Class A, then change. They also have the capability for high watts (400, I believe) when needed.

Your gettig somewhat confussed between wattage and current delivering capability, depending on your speakers the flucuating impeadence curve the speaker goes throughout it's operating freq range is more critical of current capability. As an amp goes from 200 to 400 watts you have gained 3db of sound pressure.

I would consider Aragon good quality Mid-fi, not high-end. regardless theier are plenty available on the "Gon". Now if you want a serious amp with great Class A and A/B capability, look for a Plinius SA-102, used mint will run you $2800-3100

[chasw98]

I was looking at those Monster 3250's also. Can't bring myself to pull the trigger, but the price is nice. I would have to hide that blue display, though.

Usually higher wattage has a relationship with higher current. I agree with your statement about impedance vs. current. I am looking for higher wattage for transient capability and not really for more SPL. Right now there is only 1 Aragon 2004 acailable at the "Gon", but I am keeping my out there and the other usual places.

I will look into Classe. A Plinius sounds steep. I would like to keep this purchase under 2K.

[ThomasW]

Right now there is only 1 Aragon 2004 acailable at the "Gon", but I am keeping my out there and the other usual places.

The only Aragon's to buy are the 8008 or the Palladiums, since Klipsch messed around with the other models.

We don't talk about it very much, but Jon's slowly working on a signficant upgrade for the 8008 series of amps. We've chosen the 8008's since the chassis, heat sink and associated internals couldn't be purchased for the $1k or so that used ones cost. The upgrade will consist of new driver cards with no global feedback, and an upgraded power supply. (think Ayre for 1/4th the cost.. )

This upgrade will take those lowly "mid-fi" Aragons and place them firmly in the high-end catagory....:wink:

With your electronics background, you should have no problems doing the upgrade yourself, if Jon ever freezes the design and gets the PCB's made.... :roll:

[chasw98]

The only Aragon's to buy are the 8008 or the Palladiums, since Klipsch messed around with the other models.

We don't talk about it very much, but Jon's slowly working on a signficant upgrade for the 8008 series of amps. We've chosen the 8008's since the chassis, heat sink and associated internals couldn't be purchased for the $1k or so that used ones cost. The upgrade will consist of new driver cards with no global feedback, and an upgraded power supply. (think Ayre for 1/4th the cost.. )

This upgrade will take those lowly "mid-fi" Aragons and place them firmly in the high-end catagory....:wink:

With your electronics background, you should have no problems doing the upgrade yourself, if Jon ever freezes the design and gets the PCB's made.... :roll:

Now you tell me :T

[jonathanb3478]

I do not know your thinking on DIY for amps, but the Hypex UCD modules can be turned into an amp pretty easily.

You would need (for "plug and play" type DIY):

UCD-400(ST or AD) X2
Power supply Module (Hypex "HG" for 2 modules max, or the Exodus "M-ch" for 5 modules max)
Toroidal Transformer
Case (http://www.lansing-enclosures.com - 15% off first order with these guys)
Misc. (wire, Female RCA/XLR, binding post, IEC AC input, fuse/holder, power switch, etc)

I costed a UCD-180AD stereo version, w/ the Exodus PS, for ~$700. A UCD-400AD version would be an extra ~$140 for double the power (includes larger transformer). $840 is not chump change, but the finished amp should be worth that much, with 400 watts on tap, per channel, into 4ohm loads.

A 5-ch UCD-180AD would be ~$1200. The UCD-400AD version would be an extra ~$330. You would trip a 15amp breaker before you got all a 5xUCD-400 amp could deliver. A 5xUCD-180 should comfortably fit on a 15amp circuit, however.

[DrJRapp]

The only Aragon's to buy are the 8008 or the Palladiums, since Klipsch messed around with the other models.

I think this may be a matter of opinion. The 3005 (I own is quite good, in fact it was the CES multi channel AMP award winner in 04.

Some may call Aragon dry....I call it neutral and clean...which it is. I think it may have earned the "dry" moniker because of the characteristically high demping factor that all Aragon amps are known for. They just have a firmer grip on speakers than most.

When used in a combination HT & two channel audio system such as mine, the 3005 can flow a seemingly endless amount of current into the 2 channels of my 4 ohm ML Summits.

[JonMarsh]

The 3000 series have been designed more for peak power power in HT operation, using higher voltage, lower current power supplies, and not as much supply filtering.

This is why a 300W rated per channel 3002 weighs 45 lb., and a 200WPC rated 8008ST weighs 67 lb, and the upgraded dual mono 8008BB weighs in around 74 lb. Similarly, the three channel 8008X3 weights more than the 5 channel 3005.

Klipsch wanted to deliver a higher value in the 3000 series, especially for HT, and some of the thinking was that the original Aragon designs were a bit over engineered. People have said similar things about older cars that are considered classics by some, like the Honda NSX.

Relative power supply stability with heavy musical transients, and the ability to run higher bias current levels due to larger heatsinks give a performance capability more oriented to the nuances of music for the 8000 series, in my opinion. The next level up is the Palladiums, which just take that another step further.

Understand, I make these statements as an owner of both older series and newers series Aragons, including 8002, 8008, 8008X3 and Palladiums of both "vintages".

All of them give very good bang for the buck, in my opinion, and are generally only outmatched by products costing muliples more. And in many cases aren't outmatched, assuming sonic neutrality is the main goal, coupled with vise like bass control.

[chasw98]

Jon:
Do you perceive any difference between the original "metal case" (I assume TO-3) transistor models where they matched output transistors and the relatively newer plastic case output transistor models where they did not? In all my years of factory service work, I always found that a little more care taken to match components could go a long way and I am curious. Thanks.

EDIT: I am speaking about 8008's here.

[JonMarsh]

Hi Chas,

Actually, what I think is more important is the technology of the transistor, though packaging technology is important. I've worekd with both audio design and high rel SMPS design since the mid 70's, and before joining Simens in 1985, was designing mil-aerospace power supplies.

Those days only metal can transistors were used. Even then, the contruction of the package itself, and whether there was an intermediate heatspreader of good design with low CTE's had a big impact on performance and reliabilty.

One significant problem with standard steel cased TO3/TO224 was that the emitter or souce lead going through the package hole, the package baseplate acted like a core and would significantly increase the lead inductance.

Now days with good quad eutectic solders (tin-lead-copper-silver), the die bond attached direct to the copper header is quite good, with low thermal impedance and high relibility, (lower thermal impedance than a steel package), and the molding compounds have evolved a lot and are good up to 175C.

The Toshiba transistors which Aragon shifted over to with the 8008 are part of a familiy of extended beta types inveted by Toshiba and copied by On Semiconductor. The On Semi versions have a larger die, lower thermal impedance, and somewhat greater power handling and SOA. Both are characterized by having a very flat HFE curve from 50 mA up to 8A or so, and consistently high current gain, very consistent accross different wafer lots. This is one of the reasons these amps can offer very low output distortion.


This is a function of better device design and better processing controls. I've measured a lot of parts from Toshiba and On Semi, and I can't see any need to measure and match parts for better performance. Many older types of bipolar transistors might have Hfe variations of 3:1 or higher, and more critically, have Vbe variations of 50-100 mV, which can substantially throw off biasing when paralleling transistors. With the technology of this extended beta family bipolar, it's even feasible to directly connect the driven transistors in parallel on the base (with careful layout) without using base resistors to even the current sharing. On most bipolar power devices that's not wise to do.

The best design is one that assures close matching performance wihtout a lot of human intervention, as they're more likely to make mistakes. ;^)

If you haven't read it alreay, you might want to take a look at Douglas Self's book on audio amplifier design; he's worked with the extended beta parts, too, and is pretty impressed with them. I don't agree completely with a lot of what Doug believes or says on topics like subjectivism, but he's got a lot of the fundementals down cold, much more so than many botique amplifier designers. Edge, for example.

Douglas Self Audio Site


Audio Power Ampifier Design Handbook


Last, I do know some folks familiar with both McCormick and Aragon, has had both, currently went back to Aragon. YMMV, of course; I think the McCormicks are well designed in their price range. They're both good choices if you don't have the bucks for an Ayre, for example.

I have 8002, 8008, 8008X3, and two sets of Palladiums. And Ayre.


~Jon

[chasw98]

Oh..

[chasw98]

Seriously, thank you for an answer I wasn't expecting! ;x(

To bring down the answer a little (a lot) to my level of understanding, you are saying that newer manufacturing methods have allowed for better more repeatable product when designed correctly. And if those products are used in a design that can take advantage of their strengths while minimizing their weaknesses, a better product can exist than the previous version. I remember working on Phase Linear 400's and 700's and just keeping scads of matched XPL909's around along with their little playtex washers. Then manufacturer's started using 100 watt amps on a big IC. Easy to repair, but did not sound very good.


With the technology of this extended beta family bipolar, it's even feasible to directly connect the driven transistors in parallel on the base (with careful layout) without using base resistors to even the current sharing. On most bipolar power devices that's not wise to do.

That would never have been done in the old days.

The best design is one that assures close matching performance wihtout a lot of human intervention, as they're more likely to make mistakes. ;^)

That is true in software processes also. Those damn humans, always getting in the way.

I will go and read Doug Self's site as you suggested.
I have listened extensively to McCormack with Vandersteen speakers and a high end source I cannot remember right now and after a couple of hours of listening, I felt kind of ho-hum about it. It did not seem life-like. It sounded very good mind you, but for that money I would have spent elsewhere. Thanks for a piece of your brain.

Chuck

[JonMarsh]

If you're curious, I can send you an 8008 schematic. They do some things that are a little "riskier" design wise, in that using anything other than the specified components will very definitly get you in trouble. They're relying on the characteristics of the exteneded beta Toshiba transistors. Not necessarily a bad thing, just that no one should ever repair an Aragon and attempt any transistor substitutions. It wouldn't be a pretty sight.

Yeah, those are familiar words from you- I got my start in high power solid state with Phase Linear, Dyna 400's, and SAE amps. Played in bands until the mid 70's, and used the PL's both for the PA and for home stereo (I had some transmission line DIY speakers back then that would take everything a PL700 could put out).

[AptosJeff]

Jon,
Thanks for the knowledgeable posts and links. I am new here, so havn't see too much yet, but that is good info, and as an EE I appreciate the no nonsense style.

I recently bought used Palladiums, but can't find much documentation. Do you have a schematic you are willing to share? I do like the sound and would like to keep them running for a long time.

[JonMarsh]

PM me with your email, and I can send a schematic to you, too. The Palladium and 8008 series use the same PCB and schematic- a Palladium just uses two channels in bridged mono, and ups the bias current so that the first 100 watts or so is in class A. Little difference otherwise.

[Alaric]

Oh Boy...

Jon , do I read correctly that the first 100 watts or so are Class A? How much do those puppies cost???
Also , is the "analog" sound I enjoy from my little Marantz due to Class A biasing or is it totally seperate from that aspect of design? If I may impose upon your knowledge. I almost like the sound of McIntosh amplifiers , but they sound a little too "veiled" for my tastes , and they are A/B , but very warm and lush. Even if the detail is there McIntosh amps sound somewhat "soft" to me. I heard a pair of MC1201s paired with a pair of Maggie MG 20.1s and was astounded-except for the sense of hearing the music through gauze. Maybe my hearing has degraded to the point of needing some "harshness"? Any insight would be greatly appreciated. I keep thinking I can upgrade my amp someday(more power-oh-oh-ohhh) but I can't find anything that I like as much as my budget integrated! A couple hundred more watts , for headroom , would be great if I could keep the same SQ.
Of course , then I'd have to replace the Studio 60s.Wonder what the S8s sound like at 100db.....?

[chasw98]

Just for reference, I have recently seen an 8008 go for $609.00 and another one sit at $900.00 and not sell. Those are not the Palladiums that Jon is referring to though they are part of the same family.

[JonMarsh]

There are two basic 8008 configurations: 8008ST and 8008BB. The BB is dual mono with additional output devices; the Palladium is essentially a monoblock versioqn of the BB with the channels bridged and only one input- either RCA or XLR. So, the price of admission is roughly double an 8008 BB.

This is a pretty typical new user review:

I bought this used from a fellow audiogoner after he assured me I would be floored by the difference in quality I would soon experience. Let me just say that he was right, my movie watching (sadly) has gone way down. I just can't stop listening to music on my "new" system. I have never heard my speakers until now. The Aragons dual mono design and my Pre is dual mono as well, has given me outstanding imaging despite the limitations of my small listening area. Bass is now there! deep and powerful, no more listening fatigue or digititis! Blues, hard rock, classical, all sound great. I have been inspired to buy many remastered editions of my favorite albums because the better the recording, the more this baby shines. I thank the stars I bought this and now I'm looking at a BPT ac product to get my system the high quality current it now deserves.

The overall sound is somewhat more than average preamp dependent, because of the low input impedance (22 kOhm). The standard Aragons don't have "true" balanced inputs, but the Palladium is a true balanced differential amplifier, which can be a problem if the XLR version is driven from "erzatz" balanced outputs. One set of my Palladiums has Jensen input transformers, and the other will, too, as soon as I get around to it. Removes some of the input interaction, and provides nicely balanced bandwidth control on the top end. Then you can drive an XLR version with either single ended or true balanced (like my Ayre K5).

$700 for even an ST in good condition would be pretty reasonable, IMO.

Right now there's a set of Aragon 1K for 1800 the pair, which strikes me as being pretty reasonable. That's $900 each.

Brave guy to put that much amplifier weight on a wooden table like this...

[Alaric]

Ok , it occurs to me I may be asking stupid questions.So I'll continue... :banghead: Is there a specific type of circuitry that produces what is referred to as a "warm" sound? Is it a capacitor type/brand?Power supply design?All of the above?Blind luck? Or is it beyond an answer I'm likely to understand? (Not all that hard to do) I do appreciate the fact that I don't even know how much I don't know. :E

[chasw98]

Now you know there had to be someone on the design team with a lot of common sense. You just don't see the identification labels on the backside of equipment written right side up and right side down very often!

[bigburner]

Brave guy to put that much amplifier weight on a wooden table like this...

If you look closely Jon you see that the table is actually made of Palladium with a thin wood veneer.

[JonMarsh]

If you look closely Jon you see that the table is actually made of Palladium with a thin wood veneer.

Hey, my bad, you're right! No wonder he can get away with that!

Ok , it occurs to me I may be asking stupid questions.So I'll continue... Is there a specific type of circuitry that produces what is referred to as a "warm" sound? Is it a capacitor type/brand?Power supply design?All of the above?Blind luck? Or is it beyond an answer I'm likely to understand? (Not all that hard to do) I do appreciate the fact that I don't even know how much I don't know.

Would that it were that easy...

In an ideal world, all components would be neutral and transparent, and we wouldn't worry about "warm" or "analytical" or "ice cold", or whatever...

Personnaly, I think the use of large amounts of negative feedback is one of the culprits- it can reduce open loop distortion products, but it pushes them into a higher harmonic band, so what might be a natural sounding 2nd or 3rd harmonic becomes a smaller product, but 7th and 9th, for example, which are relatively unatural, and audible at much lower absolute levels, becuase there isn't any natural harmonic masking.

Of course, there can be simple errors in frequency response which contribute to an etched top end, or a distant midrange- these are more common issues with speakers, not electronics.

My own exprience with electronics is that you have to design for low distortion open loop, as low as possible, and then don't do funny games with the amount of feedback within the audioband, becuase this is audible.

That being said, capaacitors and other passive components also have their signature- in components like those from Ayre, a lot of time is spent listening in development to the sonic signature of passive components. The does appear to be some ryhme and reason, as regards what kind of materials are good conductors and what are good dielectrics, and what aren't so good. This is an area that's important in cable design.

In an amplifier, the uniformity of power supply impedance with respect to frequency, and it's stability in the presence of high current demands is important. Also, if you have to use coupling caps, or bypass caps, or compensation circuitry with capacitors, the selection of those caps is important, and in general goold film and foil caps sound the best, as a class.

~Jon

[Alaric]

Thanks , Jon. Obviously my understanding has far lower limits than your knowledge! I use terms like "analog" to describe sounds that are more like vinyl to me. "Warm" is probably a poor choice because it denotes a coloring of the sound. I use CDs from artists I've heard perform live to judge such things , and try to use live recordings when comparing amps. Early material by Heart is one of my favorites because I've been 20 feet from the stage and heard Ann Wilson's voice-sans amplification-and I find it a useful tool for judging equipment.My $500 amp is almost perfect with female vocals (and Ozzy Osbourne!?) , lacking only headroom to keep up with "busy" passages . I was hoping there was some basic combination of materials and/or construction I could use to make the search for the perfect amplifier easier. I have once again proven if it were easy everybody would be doing it. Silly neophyte.... :rofl:

[JonMarsh]

Sometimes you have to put things in perspective. You can get an amp or speaker that handles the vocal range quite well, but doesn't quite have the guts to do ultra low bass or extreme treble at high transient levels- but it's still just as good for voice, eh?

And you can find solid state monsters that will have a vice like grip on the low to mid bass, but be "grayish' in the midrange, with a grainy presense and treble range (most often, IMO, due to using feedback the wrong way). (Think older Crown amps, for example).

Now, you could be very justified in combining those judiciously in a final system configuration- say, the use the solid state monster for a subwoofer, and use the midrange transparent amp for just that.

You can find components that combine those qualities, but of course, the price is often a bit dear, just as a top rate SACD player or vinyl rig is a "bit dear" cost wise compared to a BestBuy special universal CD/DVD player.

For instance, here's a pair of new 300 watt@ 8 ohm monoblock power amps from Ayre entering production this summer that nicely meets those requirements. :B



Yeah, the chasis and heatsink are milled out of one piece of aluminum, and the internal design of the transformers, caps, and active boards is such that there is almost no empy space- they took all the air out of Ayre.

~Jon

[chasw98]

Sometimes you have to put things in perspective. You can get an amp or speaker that handles the vocal range quite well, but doesn't quite have the guts to do ultra low bass or extreme treble at high transient levels- but it's still just as good for voice, eh?

And you can find solid state monsters that will have a vice like grip on the low to mid bass, but be "grayish' in the midrange, with a grainy presense and treble range (most often, IMO, due to using feedback the wrong way). (Think older Crown amps, for example).

Now, you could be very justified in combining those judiciously in a final system configuration- say, the use the solid state monster for a subwoofer, and use the midrange transparent amp for just that.

You can find components that combine those qualities, but of course, the price is often a bit dear, just as a top rate SACD player or vinyl rig is a "bit dear" cost wise compared to a BestBuy special universal CD/DVD player.

For instance, here's a pair of new 300 watt@ 8 ohm monoblock power amps from Ayre entering production this summer that nicely meets those requirements. :B

~Jon

First off, I don't want to turn this into an "All amps sound the same above a certain level of quality" post. But, from what you say Jon, you CAN hear the differences in high quality amps. (I believe I can to ) If you can hear the difference, it should be measurable. Obviously the standard FR, THD, IM, slew rate, etc. do not say anything about tight bottom end, airy vocals, or transparent top end. What would you measure, and what would the measurable difference be between a Crown, an Aragon, or the new Ayre monoblocks that would distinguish them as being able to be a bottom end workhorse, a vocal pleasing midrange, etc.? Now, the manufacturers may never publish such specs, nor would the magazines say that a new $5,000.00 amp was very good for bottom end but lacking at the top (goodbye revenue dollars!), so this type of testing might never reach your average consumer or audiopile. Your thoughts?

Chuck