Turntable advice?

[benny]

I'll be purchasing a turntable sooner than later after doing a little test run with a Technics 1200. My system is Rotel RB1070, RCD1070, RC1070 with AQ's everywhere pushing Paradigm Studio 60 towers with a matching sub. I'm looking for something "mid-fi", whatever that means, that would compliment my exsisting system. I'd like to spend between $300-500 at the most. I listen to a lot of rap, hard rock, as well as jazz. Keep in mind I'll be using the phono input on my Rotel pre, not some fancy outboard phono pre. Any good coices for this considering I want detail without sacrificing oomph in the bass, etc. How about Rega P3? Anyone have experience with them or can reccomend a similar/better option? I'm not too keen on the characteristics of different models and their "sounds". How 'bout cartridges? Sorry for the novel but any and all advice is greatly appreciated. Thanks!

[Bob]

Rega and Music Hall both have good TT complete with arm and cartridge in this price range.

[benny]

Actually my top two choices, Bob. Thanks for the input. I'm trying to justify jumping up from a $300 model to a $600 model, though. For instance, a P3 up to (I believe) a P5. I don't know if my gear warrants the upgrade or not. Any other ideas, suggestions?

[miner]

Be aware that the RC-1070 pre phono stage is meant for MM cartridges. A recent Stereophile issue gave the Music Hall TT a good review for mif-fi tables. For your price range look at the Music Hall MMf-2 or MMF-5. Be sure the cartridge is MM though.

[David Meek]

Benny, from your equipment list I do think you'll hear the benefit in upgrading to the $500-600 range for your TT. I'm generalizing here, but I think you'll hear a more musical presentation, more detail, possibly better imaging and possibly a lower noise floor. You've probably heard this many times by now, but auditioning in person and with music you are seriously familiar with is by far the best way to decide on components.

[benny]

Again, thanks much for the helpful comments David and Miner. I will look into those models for sure. I wasn't aware about the MM phono pre on my Rotel, so you saved me a potential disaster there, Miner! Still interested if anyone has done any comparison between the two brands mentiond, either within the same system or just in general. Good/bad experiences, etc. Those two brands always seem to come up. I'm new with the analog stuff... Just starting to build my 180g re-issue collection hehe.

[BillBramha]

I haven't compared the two units you are considering, but can offer something from my own experience: you will notice a far greater difference in sonics when comparing cartirdges as opposed to comparing turntables. I would put the money into the best cartridge and tone arm you can afford and then maybe look for a good used turntable.

[alebonau]

I've got the rega p25 a 25th anniversary special rega brought out.

http://www.rega.co.uk/html/p25.htm

Have an ortofon mc10 supreme stylus on it and jsut usign it with the built in mc phono on my mf pre. Absolutely love it, nice piece of engineering. Will be the last turntable I ever buy - unless someone gave me a Rega p9 or somethign hehehe. Might one day try an ortofon kontrapunkt cartridge on the p25 maybe if getting bored. but yeah very happy as is ! :T

[miner]

Just on a side note Benny, when I was doing my research on separates the article I read on the RC-1070/RB-1070 combo the reviewer said the phono stage on the RC-1070 was worth the price alone. If I can find the article I'll link it.

[Alloroc]

Tend not to see that much turntable stuff here. It's great to see people dipping their toe back into the wonderful world of vinyl!, so I'll throw this piece of general info in for good measure.

Word has it that Linn are in the process of developing a new turntable, a sucessor to the Sondek LP12. Will watch this with real interest. My first hifi turntable was an LP12....

Anyhow, I'm a fan of Clearaudio - they make some really nice players. I'd like to suggest that you sound out a Clearaudio Emotion turntable. It maybe a bit above your budget but it could be worh it in the long run. I agree with other comments about cartridges - get a good enough one!

[gd]

My 2¢...

My Rega Planar 3 has been a solid performer for years... rather than move up to a P5, I think I'd concentrate on a good cartridge... if the RC-1070 pre phono stage is meant for MM cartridges, as noted above, I don't have any MM recommendations... but the MC Sumiko Blue Point Special (which was the standard package at the time) has been a good complement to my vinyl rig.
.

[sullygr@comcast]

Again, thanks much for the helpful comments David and Miner. I will look into those models for sure. I wasn't aware about the MM phono pre on my Rotel, so you saved me a potential disaster there, Miner! Still interested if anyone has done any comparison between the two brands mentiond, either within the same system or just in general. Good/bad experiences, etc. Those two brands always seem to come up. I'm new with the analog stuff... Just starting to build my 180g re-issue collection hehe.

If I may, I’d like to offer my buck 298’s worth of vinyl advice. You need to visit http://www.furious.com/perfect/vinylanachronist.html and read all of Marc Phillips articles. He is very knowledgeable on the subject of vinyl.

You mentioned you want to build a 180gm record $ollection. Vinyl is a maintenance oriented hobby unlike CDs which you just pop it in and hit play. Clean records are a must for optimum sound and enjoyment.

I would highly recommend you start with an inexpensive TT with a pre-mounted cartridge (MM or high output MC) such as a Music Hall. Then, buy a wet-vac record cleaner (Buy a used Nitty Gritty or VPI on Audiogon.com or EBay).

I have owned both the Rega P3 and P25. My son owned the Music Hall MMF-5. All three sound different from one another. As I said above, go read the Vinyl Anachronist articles. Most of your questions will be answered in his articles.

Gerald

[Martyn]

Feeling handy? Try this...http://www.altmann.haan.de/turntable/

[David Meek]

Okay Martyn, that's cool! I'd definitely have to go with a mfg'd cartridge though.

[benny]

miner- Thanks again. I too have heard (read) that about the 1070 having a nice phono stage for the price.

sullygr- I will mos def check out that link and try to get a better handle on things.

sullygr/gd- Obviously tastes differ, but can you give me some of your impressions. RE: P3 with better cartridge is better than P5? Spend more on a cartridge for the P3 as opposed to upgrading to P5 or Music Hall? Impressions of the Rega's vs. the MMF-5, generally speaking, would still be helpful. Thanks!

[sullygr@comcast]

sullygr/gd- Obviously tastes differ, but can you give me some of your impressions. RE: P3 with better cartridge is better than P5? Spend more on a cartridge for the P3 as opposed to upgrading to P5 or Music Hall? Impressions of the Rega's vs. the MMF-5, generally speaking, would still be helpful. Thanks!

I bought my P3 with a Rega Elys cartridge ($780) sometime in 2002 from Music Direct. At that time, my setup was comprised of a heavily DIY’d Counterpoint SA-3.1 tube preamp with a VTL ST-80 amp. My CDP at the time was a Rotel RCD-971 which is probably similar to your RCD-1070 or at least in cost ($699). Based on memory the P3 had a warm presentation with very good bass. The highs were a little laid back, but overall good. It smoked the 971, which I thought sounded great before getting the P3. I never tried any other cartridges on the P3.

Thanks to the Vinyl Anachronist I got the upgrade bug and bought a used P25 ($800) from Audiogon.com. The P25 is a major upgrade from the P3. The RB600 arm has better bearings and cabling than the RB300 on the P3 and the splint is better. I put a Dynavector 10x4 ($350) on the P25 and the difference between the 2 TTs was substantial.

I also used a Denon DL-103 MC cartridge, which I preferred over the 10x4, and a low output Grado Sonata ($500) on the P25. For me and for the money, the Sonata is the best natural sounding cartridge I have ever had. But it is not shielded and caused humming when it played the last track of LPs. The hum was caused by the P25 AC motor being mounted so close to the spindle. So, if you don’t like hum, stay away from Grados for P2s, P3s, P25s and P5s if they have AC motors.

Another thing you need to know about Rega arms is that they do not have a VTA adjustments. Rega TTs are designed for Rega cartridges. I know, you’re asking what is VTA? Read the Vinyl Anachronist. The 10x4 and the two other cartridges needed the rear of the arm raised to sound correct.

Now, back to your $300-$500 TT budget: The P3 Rega with a cartridge is way above $500. The MMF-5 sells for $550 and comes with a very nice mounted Goldring 1012 high output MC cartridge. It has dual splints with damping between the two splints. The motor sits on the lower splint with the platter on the top. Why does all this matter? Low vibration… Vibration is the enemy of analog. What really struck me the first time I listened to my son’s MMF-5 is what I didn’t hear. This $550 table is extremely quiet. I couldn’t tell when my son had lowered the arm on the LP. Neither Rega were as quiet (blackness in TT talk). The MMF-5 doesn’t have as good arm as the Regas. However, it is still quiet good and this is your first purchase not your last. You can always upgrade latter. BTW, it also smoked the RCD-971 in direct comparison. Remember you got to save money to buy that wet-vac.

I see you live in DFW. How far are you from San Antonio? Galen Carol Audio is located in San Antonio and they sell Regas and Music Halls among other TTs. Here’s their TT online store link: http://www.gcaudio.com/cgi-bin/store/search.cgi?cat=39 . A friend of mine here in Knoxville does business with them a lot and has nothing but good things to say about them. Give them a call (210) 805-9927 and see if you can have a listen. I don’t have any stores near Knoxville that have analog gear. I have to buy everything mail-order.

Two more things you need to know about vinyl playback, phono cartridges are consumables and are very fragile. That sweet sound of my $500 Sonata I loved so much was all used up after 18 months. I listen to music about 100 hours a month. Second, the guy I bought my P25 from broke the cantilever on his $3400 Koetsu Urushi cartridge. He had to send it to Japan to get it fixed for $2000. So keep all this in the back of your mind.

OBTW, I lost the hum on the Sonata cartridge when I mounted it on my VPI Scoutmaster. I know… I know… It’s a sickness. I gotta get help!

Gerald

[gd]

Pretty much what sullygr said... except I don't believe one is necessarily restricted to Rega cartridges when buying a Rega TT.

I'll still recommend a better cartridge vs a one-step-up TT, but I'll also leave that as a personal opinion... you're at a point where you should audition and try to make that determination for yourself... be prepared to experiment with at least a couple different cart's.

Unfortunately, while there are solid entry-level makes, vinyl playback gear generally takes fairly substantial expenditure to realize discernible improvements.

Meanwhile, you are starting in the right place with Rega and Music Hall... if you can find a Pro-Ject retailer, you might give them a listen as well.

Then save up, as sullygr apparently has, for a VPI.

And do some daydreaming here: http://aca.gr/turntable.htm

[benny]

Thank you both very much for the info. I'm leaning toward the Music Hall but, of course, I'll audition a few top choices to confirm. Being my first table, I don't want to go overboard with it. I just want some quality "mid-fi" gear to complement what I have and I think I'm pointed in the right direction now. Thanks!

[texasbwfan]

What was wrong with the Technics 1200 you auditioned? Are the Technics turntables not suitable for home use? Beyond aesthetics, is there a true benefit for buying turntables that are considered 'audiophile' turntables? I too am in the market for a turntable and I'm having a difficult time understanding what seperates the DJ tables from home use tables...Does one sound better than the other and if so...Why?

[Karma]

What was wrong with the Technics 1200 you auditioned? Are the Technics turntables not suitable for home use? Beyond aesthetics, is there a true benefit for buying turntables that are considered 'audiophile' turntables? I too am in the market for a turntable and I'm having a difficult time understanding what seperates the DJ tables from home use tables...Does one sound better than the other and if so...Why?

HI texas and all you other responders,
I want so badly to sit you down and explain the ins and outs of analog playback. Do you have a couple of years of free time? Over the past 40 years I have had a stream of state-of-the-art turntables, tone arms, cartridges and associated equipment. I know the field so well that I also know that this forum is not the place to educate you. The field is vast. You must educate yourself, unfortunately. I understand your problem; I educated myself many years ago and the quest for knowledge continues for this so-called obsolete medium.

Your question only makes sense when uttered by a beginner. That's OK. We all have to start somewhere. So start, but accept the fact you are pretty much on your own. It will be a very exciting chase for knowledge. Find information sources. While I have not done this, the WEB must be the logical starting gate and I'm not talking about forums though they too can be useful. Be careful about accepting advise from those who know no more than you. Use your ears. They will not let you down.

The payoff is also vast. Analog playback, at its best, is the best, IMO. To get that level of performance you must do three things: 1) Expect to spend more money than most people are willing to do; 2) Start collecting GOOD recordings in excellent condition; 3) Become an expert on analog playback components. There is a whole lot to learn and understand.

Used records are a gold mine for excellent records but be careful because many have been used as Frisbee's. This means that you must become knowledgable about the good record labels and search out their famous offerings. This is a hobby unto itself. I have over 5000 analog records and the vast majority were very carefully selected. The result is fantastic sound when played on a great playback system. A few even go back to the middle 1950's such as the an original release of the famous mono Mercury 1812 Overture with Deem's Taylor and the Minneapolis Symphony (great canons). Others come from the 1960's when some of the most famous recordings were being made by companies such as RCA, Vanguard, London, Blue Note, etc. Even when played today, these records are in pristine condition and sound great. Why? Because they have always been played on fine equipment which has not damaged them and they have received fine care from me. Oh yes, the record hunt is an exciting one. Are you ready? Most are not!

The systems mentioned on this thread are only the starting point. In my opinion, the ones mentioned so far are a waste of money unless you expect to stop at the starting line. Even VPI, for whom I have a lot respect, one should buy at or close to their top of the line (expensive) tables. Why? Because none of these starter systems are good enough to really show analog playback at even close to its best. With these you will probably wonder what the fuss is about. There are very few reasons to get into analog at this late date unless you seek the best sound you can buy.

Even the thought that a tone arm does not offer a vertical tracking angle adjustment is cause for weeping. Avoid!!! Rather, buy one that does offer a tone arm with a vertical angle adjustment and learn how to do it. It must be done entirely by ear. Much better yet, select your own tone arm that incorporates a realistically useful vertical angle adjustor such as Graham (good), SME (just OK), or Eminent Technology (the best I have used). All these are great arms and each has something different to offer. I prefer the ET air bearing tangential tracking arm for a number of reasons but that's just me. The others offer good things too. Both the Graham and the SME arms are flat out beautiful. And there are other great designs available both pivoted and air bearing. I used these three as examples because I am most familiar with them. Don't check the prices, just close your eyes and buy. 8O

You can not simply talk about turntables. That's way too simplistic. Rather, you must consider the table, the arm, the cartridge, the stylus, the TT stand, the cables, the tone arm wires, the set up, the preamp and even the floor on which the system sits as an integrated system with each part synergistically interacting with all the other parts to give the result you desire. And we are not even talking about other components that make analog life easier such as a record washing machine and other mystical things like Last and a variety of cartridge setup tools. I even have an electronic stylus cleaner which works like a charm. Analog is a world of angles and weights, chemicals and stylus shapes, skating forces and warps, cartridge mass and inertia, coils and magnets. And, not the least, incredible mechanical and visual and musical art. I love it!!

Usually, this is an expensive proposition which must be accomplished over a period of time. There are no shortcuts and you must accept the fact that you will make some expensive mistakes. Also, you must decide where to stop because there really is no end.

Please understand that I'm not trying to discourage you. In fact I feel the opposite. I am very excited for you. If you are serious, you have a HI FI adventure in front of you with a huge payoff. Good Luck.

Sparky

[peterS]

^that realy dosent awnser the question

[David Meek]

Well PeterS, please enlighten us with your knowledge of the Technics 1200 and it's merits relative to the earlier mentioned 'tables.

Also, the words are REALLY, DOESN'T and ANSWER.

[texasbwfan]

^that realy dosent awnser the question

No, it doesn't really address the question I presented.

Are the Technics 1200 series tables not suitable for home use? If so, why? What seperates DJ oriented tables from audiophile tables other than aesthetics? Will the Technics table sound bad in a mid-high end home audio system?

I'm not looking to pay an arm and a leg for perfect sound. I'm simply interested in playing a collection of records that I inherited...was hoping I could attain good - very good sound using what is considered, a very high end DJ table such as the Technics 1200 series. The specific model I've ordered for use in my home audio system is the SL-1210MK5. I didn't have the opportunity to audition before purchasing this model so I'm hopeful to receive feedback from an actual owner.

Thanks!

[David Meek]

For DJ'ing the 1200 series is a good choice, but for "very good sound" you want to stay away from a DJ-type turntable. A belt-drive system acts as an isolator/damper whereas most direct-drives - like the Technics 1200s - conduct sound through it's mechanism which can easily be picked up by the cartridge and transmitted along with the music. Also the processing capabilities in some of the Technics can cause degradation of the signal being sent when compared to a belt-drive with a clean (read few or no additional steps) path. The arm on a DJ table is set up to take "punishment" in a club environment where a non-DJ table's arm is designed to transmit a signal while minimizing its effect on the sound. The cartridges on a DJ table are designed to withstand rotation of the table forward and backward (!) where a sturdier, less compliant build is needed. A non-DJ cartridge is designed less with survival in mind as it is to pick up as much of the music signal as possible while minimizing the spurious information.

Just generalizing, DJ-tables are heavily built to survive a party palace and to put out music to dance to (where there is so much ambient noise that low-level details are lost), but not optimized for better noise reduction, music retrieval and output.

[texasbwfan]

David - HUGE HELP!! Thank you!

Based on your response...I'm beginning to think that I've made a huge mistake in ordering the DJ table for home use. The table has shipped but hasn't arrived. I still have an opportunity to return the table and continue shopping.

Is there a model(s) you would recommend in the 350-1000 range? I'd prefer to buy the unit new if possible. As you can imagine, I'm anxious to begin my love for vinyl right away ;-). Any input or guidance you can share is greatly appreciated. Thanks!

[sullygr@comcast]

HI texas and all you other responders,


Usually, this is an expensive proposition which must be accomplished over a period of time. There are no shortcuts and you must accept the fact that you will make some expensive mistakes. Also, you must decide where to stop because there really is no end.
Sparky

Been there done that too many times! That is why I stopped at the VPI and now use an inexpensive Denon DL-103 cartridge. It is an extremely high maintenace hobby. Since I bought my Cary Audio 303/200 CD player, the VPI has pretty much been collecting dust.

Gerald

[David Meek]

In the $300-$1,000 range, look at (IMO of course ):

Music Hall MMF-2.1LE
Music Hall MMF-5
Music Hall MMF-5SE
Pro-Ject RM-5 (needs a cartridge)
Thorens TD-240 (the cherry version is an especially fine looking unit)
Thorens TD-295 Mk IV

Any of these will be a good to very good choice around which to enjoy your vinyl. The higher end ones will at once put you into better sounding music and may be the only 'table you'll ever need. Best of luck!

[benny]

David, since you seem good at answering questions in layman's terms, I have a question for you. I've started my LP collection but my table purchase is still a ways off. I don't want to degrade the records themselves by playing them on the 1200. The 1200 in question has a Shure cartridge and has been used/scratched heavily by DFW's best, DJ Ultramagnus. I don't know how to tell if the needle is suitable for playing my records or not. Will playing my records on this full-on DJ table affect/age them more than say, a Music Hall? I would guess so, but how much in your opinion? Thanks-

[David Meek]

The 1200 in question has a Shure cartridge and has been used/scratched heavily by DFW's best, DJ Ultramagnus.

Benny, I'm sorry, but I wouldn't touch a single record with that Technics cartridge. Most of the Music Halls come with cartridges already set-up. While that set-up might not be the ultimate it'll be far, far better for your albums than would that old, pitted, heavily-used unit on the Technics.

[benny]

I was afraid of that. Guess the collection will grow in silence for awhile because I don't want to thrash the records on his needle. Thanks for your reply, David!

[twitch54]

In the $300-$1,000 range, look at (IMO of course ):

Music Hall MMF-2.1LE
Music Hall MMF-5
Music Hall MMF-5SE
Pro-Ject RM-5 (needs a cartridge)
Thorens TD-240 (the cherry version is an especially fine looking unit)
Thorens TD-295 Mk IV

Any of these will be a good to very good choice around which to enjoy your vinyl. The higher end ones will at once put you into better sounding music and may be the only 'table you'll ever need. Best of luck!

I believe Rega makes an entry level table that is pretty good as well, P-3 or P-5 ??

[David Meek]

Yes, Rega makes fine turntables as well. The P3 does fit within the price range at $750 or there-about.

[peterS]

what about this one?

http://www.usa.denon.com/ProductDetails/3145.asp

[David Meek]

I haven't heard this 'table, and the fact that it has auto start and shutoff may indicate a lean towards convenience features over better sound. Having said that though, Denon can surprise at times with the quality of their products. The proof will be in the listening (as usual). Has anyone out there auditioned this one?

[texasbwfan]

Despite the advice provided within this post thread, I decided to keep the Technics SL-1210MK5 after speaking to the good folks at Acoustic Sounds. The guys I spoke to said the Technics table was of high quality and could be transformed to an audiophile grade table with a few simple changes. I'm using a Shure M97XE phono cartridge and couldn't be happier with the quality of sound. I've also upgraded the mat with a 5mm Funk Firm Achromat. I'm very happy with my purchase. Vinyl sounds amazing!

Just thought I'd share my personal experience,

[miner]

Where is Acoustic Sounds located?

[texasbwfan]

http://store.acousticsounds.com/

I believe they're located in Salina, KS. They have an incredible selection of both turntables and vinyl. Great group of people to do business with,

[peterS]

Despite the advice provided within this post thread, I decided to keep the Technics SL-1210MK5 after speaking to the good folks at Acoustic Sounds. The guys I spoke to said the Technics table was of high quality and could be transformed to an audiophile grade table with a few simple changes. I'm using a Shure M97XE phono cartridge and couldn't be happier with the quality of sound. I've also upgraded the mat with a 5mm Funk Firm Achromat. I'm very happy with my purchase. Vinyl sounds amazing!

Just thought I'd share my personal experience,

imagine that :rofl:

so what are the few upgrades that can be done

[David Meek]

Congratulations Benny. Best of luck with the Technics. :T

[texasbwfan]

I'm glad you enjoyed my post, Peter. I for one love the sound of my Technics turntable...no complaints whatsoever.

[Yasvanth]

Hi

This is for all the record or vinyl lovers around the world. Does anybody own or even listened to the fantastic Roksan Xerxes 10 or 20 and what do they actually think of its build and sound quality?

How will it compare against a Linn Sondek LP12, Michell Gyrodec or Orbe?

Also my Michell Gyrodec/ QC Power Supply that I have had for 7 years since new is beginning to give me problems. The AC motor is beginning to make strange hissing noises when it is turned on. It is definetly the motor and not the main bearing. Anybody have any ideas what is causing this problem?

Thanks
Yas

[newbiemex]

HI texas and all you other responders,
I want so badly to sit you down and explain the ins and outs of analog playback. Do you have a couple of years of free time? Over the past 40 years I have had a stream of state-of-the-art turntables, tone arms, cartridges and associated equipment. I know the field so well that I also know that this forum is not the place to educate you. The field is vast. You must educate yourself, unfortunately. I understand your problem; I educated myself many years ago and the quest for knowledge continues for this so-called obsolete medium.

Your question only makes sense when uttered by a beginner. That's OK. We all have to start somewhere. So start, but accept the fact you are pretty much on your own. It will be a very exciting chase for knowledge. Find information sources. While I have not done this, the WEB must be the logical starting gate and I'm not talking about forums though they too can be useful. Be careful about accepting advise from those who know no more than you. Use your ears. They will not let you down.

The systems mentioned on this thread are only the starting point. In my opinion, the ones mentioned so far are a waste of money unless you expect to stop at the starting line. Even VPI, for whom I have a lot respect, one should buy at or close to their top of the line (expensive) tables. Why? Because none of these starter systems are good enough to really show analog playback at even close to its best. With these you will probably wonder what the fuss is about. There are very few reasons to get into analog at this late date unless you seek the best sound you can buy.

Usually, this is an expensive proposition which must be accomplished over a period of time. There are no shortcuts and you must accept the fact that you will make some expensive mistakes. Also, you must decide where to stop because there really is no end.

Please understand that I'm not trying to discourage you. In fact I feel the opposite. I am very excited for you. If you are serious, you have a HI FI adventure in front of you with a huge payoff. Good Luck.

Sparky

This is exactly why people hate audiophiles. The damned perception that you will "waste your money" with a $600 turntable, or that $3,000 speakers are barely "decent".

Get down your pedestal, because there are people who now more than you and wouldn't call entry level equipment a waste. Not everyone here is a hardcore audiophile, so if you say that getting equipment worth less than several thousand dollars is a waste of money, it is very discouraging for people that can't afford a $4,000 TT.

Re read your post and hopefully you'll realize what I'm talking about.

[twitch54]

This is exactly why people hate audiophiles. The damned perception that you will "waste your money" with a $600 turntable, or that $3,000 speakers are barely "decent".

Get down your pedestal, because there are people who now more than you and wouldn't call entry level equipment a waste. Not everyone here is a hardcore audiophile, so if you say that getting equipment worth less than several thousand dollars is a waste of money, it is very discouraging for people that can't afford a $4,000 TT.

Re read your post and hopefully you'll realize what I'm talking about.

Newbie, Welcome ! I understand your frustration, but what I think Sparky was trying to say was that the 'Analog' community is constantly on the defensive if you will from our 'Digital' bretheran regarding ones 'Sonic Nirvana' experience. So in order to prove what we believe is still a superior format one needs to go to the highest level. Well there in lies part of the paradox for the 'cost of admission' into that relm is quite high indeed. I on the other hand trully do believe that there is very, very good analog componets available well below that level that easily give digital a run for the money.

Keep in mind though that the individual who intends to spend say only a grand on their analog front end will never be able to experience what were talking about, sure they will hear music, but the 'soul' has yet to be reached !!

[newbiemex]

Newbie, Welcome ! I understand your frustration, but what I think Sparky was trying to say was that the 'Analog' community is constantly on the defensive if you will from our 'Digital' bretheran regarding ones 'Sonic Nirvana' experience. So in order to prove what we believe is still a superior format one needs to go to the highest level. Well there in lies part of the paradox for the 'cost of admission' into that relm is quite high indeed. I on the other hand trully do believe that there is very, very good analog componets available well below that level that easily give digital a run for the money.

Keep in mind though that the individual who intends to spend say only a grand on their analog front end will never be able to experience what were talking about, sure they will hear music, but the 'soul' has yet to be reached !!

I can understand that. I'm new to the hobby, 22 years old so the money is scarce and the overuse of the word "decent" is discouraging.

The Toyota Camry is a great car for its price, but it won't be so great if I compare it to the performance of a Porsche, and that's where I think some audiophiles miss the whole picture, us newbies with a restrained budget are looking for the most value we can get.

Anyway, I plan to get a TT this year, I was going with a $900 budget, but considering your comments, I will expand my budget to $1,500. I'm considering the Roksan Radius-5 as it's the nicest looking TT I've seen under $1,500 and the reviews are good.

How much do you think is the least I should spend to build a very good TT system?

Thanks Dave, and I didn't mean to sound bitter.

[Karma]

HI newbie,
I'll take some responsibility here. It has been so long since I have had entry level equipment that I do sometimes forget that the beginners are out there. I'm really sorry and I sure don't want to discourage your adventures.

Here's what I suggest:

Find the Audio Karma forum and go to the turntable section. There you find a lot of people who are into budget hi fi. Be careful though. Usually they hate audiophiles. Don't let yourself be contaminated. If you do you will shut yourself off from the great sound that only high end equipment can provide.

The link:

http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?

Sparky