Bi-wire: One run or two?

[RebelMan]

Given the choice to bi-wire your amplifilers and speakers with a specialty bi-wire cable (one 2x4) or using two independent cable runs (two 2x2) which would you choose and why? Assume both amplifiers and speakers have dual sets of binding posts (four connection points on each component) and the price in either case is the same.

[Race Car Driver]

Id take the simpler 2x4.... Because its less hassle.

[Karma]

HI Rebel,
My choice would be 2X2. I don't have a solid reason backed up with test data (does anybody?). I feel that the 2X2 configuration offers less chance of capacitive coupling between the pairs. The effects of biwiring are subtle at best. Given the expense, why not give the biwires the best chance of working, me thinks. Mine are all 2X2.

Sparky

[IntegrateMe]

I'm using the 8 gauge Tributaries Bi-Wire (SCBW with Spades on both ends) and it is great.

It looks cool even if it doesn't really do anything.

[Blindamood]

Of course, two independent runs are almost always gonna cost substantially more than a 2x4 (of equal quality), so given the cost difference I'd definitely go with 2x4. This is what I use right now, btw.

[RebelMan]

Karma, I agree with you in that there should be less crosstalk between separate pairs of cables but will there be an audible difference? Who knows, but like you said why take any chances.

Blindamood, if the cables in question are exactly the same price would that change your mind? Add to that the single runs have an accumulative lower gauge, i.e., more conductive material, would that change your mind? Assume that all else is equal.

If price is not a factor but convienience, esthetic appeal and possible performance benefits are, how would you vote?

[dyazdani]

I'd go with 2 runs - more conductor. It looks cool too.

That's how I have mine set up now. My amp only has one set of posts, makes it a pain.

[grit]

I guess that'd depend on the brand of cable, which we kinda can't really discuss. So, I'll talk about the characteristics, not the brand.

For the cables I use, they make a 2x2, a 2x4, and a 4x4 (in a single jacket) in various gauges. The interesting thing is, these cables have "networks" wired into them. It's my understanding that the networks compensate for the length of the cable run (among other things). Thus, you could (theoretically) run your right speaker on a 200' lead and your left speaker on an 8' lead, and have no sonic mismatches (example is extreme to make the point clear).

In the case for this brand of wire, the 2x4 and 4x4 runs take into account which binding posts the speaker-end is connected to. I currently HAVE the 2x4 run, only because the 4x4 run was not affordable for me at this time with respect to my electronics. When I get Rebelman's Classe problem , *THEN* I'll upgrade my cables to 4x4 runs. For me, this is the perfect compromise. I really dont want to run TWO sets of wires PER speaker, but you still get all the benefits.

Oh, BTW, you can purchase JUST the cable in custom lengths from a licensed installer for substantially less than you can get the pre-made cables with the networks attached. So, if yer not a fan of the networks, the cable itself is still purchasable (it's labeled as their construction grade "in wall" cable. The jacket is not as pretty, but it's the same wire.

[Chris D]

Unless somebody could convince me that two runs would make a functional difference, I personally would run the 2x4 purely for simplicity.

[Karma]

HI Rebel,
I need to expand a little on my previous post. First, a confession: I don't run 2X2 cables. No, indeed. I'm even crazier that that. I run 4X1. That's right, on all my biwires there is a physically independent + cable and - cable which comprise a pair for the speaker terminal pair. Thus, my 805S's and HTM4S each have four cables going to them. The three front speaker cables total 12 cables!!!! I indicated 2X2 above because of the choices you gave and I didn't feel like trying to justify my weird configuration. Note, however, the reasons given for 2X2 configuration remain the same for my 4X1's. I didn't completely lie. :W

The reasons for this are based upon the fact that the speaker cables are my own design. To achieve my design goals (minimum capacitance, minimum coupling, minimum surface effects, many small ga. high purity solid copper conductors) it was more practical to separate the cables. Because the cables utilize many small insulated conductors arranged in a flat shroud, it was easier to use independent runs. It is not as terrible as it seems. The cables are fairly tidy and only about one inch wide. They run under carpets very well. Only at the amp does a traffic jam occur. It's not too bad.

BTW, these cables sound great, IMHO. I've compared them to a wide variety of good cables in different price ranges in a variety of high end systems and they have not been bested. Are they the best? Noooooooo, I don't think so. I wish I could say they are but my testing sample is way too small for that conclusion to be reached. That would be dumb. I also know that cables are quite system dependent. I don't think there is a "magic bullet" cable out there that will be best in all systems.

These cables were designed, evaluated and tested for my main system which drives my Martin Logan electrostatic speakers with an ARC tube amp. I hoped they would also do well in my bedroom with my Krell amps and the B&W speakers. They seem fine but I have not done much comparison listening on this system. It's very possible they could be improved upon. The Krell/B&W system is electronically very different from my main system. At least they are not grainy and have a very smooth but not rolled off top end. Good detail. I'm satisfied.

They have a huge advantage over commercial cables. I can build them myself, in any desired length and configuration and the price is definitely right. I don't charge myself for my time which is significant.

I also designed and built my own interconnects. Since I did not have to worry about high current, I evolved a totally different design which is much harder to build. But they sound good. I run single ended all the way in my systems.

Sparky

[Karma]

Unless somebody could convince me that two runs would make a functional difference, I personally would run the 2x4 purely for simplicity.

HI Chris,
Come on, now. I know you know the only convincing that can be done is your ears to your brain. If you can't hear differences, they remain only theoretical. Why pay for something you can't hear?

Sparky

[RebelMan]

Very interesting read Karma, thanks for expounding.

[ShadowZA]

I suppose that you could consider me as a member of "Karma's Krazy Kable Konnector Korps" 'cause I'm doing almost exactly what he's doing ... for the same reason ... that is, to practically separate the cables. Whether the difference of not doing things this way is materially noticeable from an audio perspective, I don't know.

Btw, my centre speaker cables are also independent, but because they are not as bulky, there is a way that they can be soldered such that there is a sharing of the connecting banana plugs.



If one could say that using separate cables (call it a tweak) improves audio by a fraction. Then ... one could say that many tweaks improves audio by many fractions ... and thus the sum of small improvements contribute towards one significant improvement.

Just a crazy audiophile thought .. aka ... one inch closer to the pinnacle.

[dyazdani]

HI Rebel,
I need to expand a little on my previous post. First, a confession: I don't run 2X2 cables. No, indeed. I'm even crazier that that. I run 4X1. That's right, on all my biwires there is a physically independent + cable and - cable which comprise a pair for the speaker terminal pair.

I used to do the same with my N802s. I "dropped" down to 2x2 now...

[Karma]

HI Shadow,
I feel honored to have a whole niche of audiophiles named after my practices. However, "Karma's Krazy Kable Konnector Korps" can be reduced to "KKKKK" which is unpleasently close to "KKK". Therefore, I must decline the name :P

Besides, you probably did it before me.

BTW, I'm using all spades. I see from your picture you are using what looks like a combination of bananas and bare wire. Do you have trouble with the bananas pulling out when you are messing around in the back of your system? Or are they the locking type?

Sparky

[Chris D]

HI Chris,
Come on, now. I know you know the only convincing that can be done is your ears to your brain. If you can't hear differences, they remain only theoretical. Why pay for something you can't hear?

Sparky

Exactly, Sparky. For me personally, reading about how something SHOULD make a system sound better doesn't do much for me. Now if somebody could show me in person that a configuration would improve sound, or get some testimonials that make sense from others, then I'd be willing to try it.

[ShadowZA]

HI Shadow,
I feel honored to have a whole niche of audiophiles named after my practices. However, "Karma's Krazy Kable Konnector Korps" can be reduced to "KKKKK" which is unpleasently close to "KKK". Therefore, I must decline the name :P

Besides, you probably did it before me.

BTW, I'm using all spades. I see from your picture you are using what looks like a combination of bananas and bare wire. Do you have trouble with the bananas pulling out when you are messing around in the back of your system? Or are they the locking type?

Sparky

Hi Sparky

Maybe KCCCC might be better

I'm using a combo of spades & bananas and yes, the bananas are not locking and so they can be pulled out ... not very easily though ... but it can still happen. On the speakers, they are all bananas.