Official Nu Force discussion thread at HTG

[HTG Rules Administrator]

This is the officially started thread for Nu Force discussion at HTGuide. Now that NuForce manufacturer is an advertiser, please welcome Jason as manufacturing agent to discuss any and all NuForce products.

That same latitude is not afforded to all dealers of NuForce products. They would have to secure their own advertising arrangements to be given the same rights that Jason has as Manufacturing Agent now.

Thank you.
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[ShadowZA]

Ok ... quite a sensible idea to have a clean and dedicated NuForce thread. Way to go!

Regarding the NuForce Ref 9 mono's ... there is a question bugging me. Maybe I'm just over-concerned, but I'd like to know what type of protection circuitry is employed in the Ref 9's. I do understand that these amps should be fully connected before turning them on.

With children running about, etc ... what I am afraid of is the potential damage to an amp should a speaker cable be unplugged whilst the amps are "on". Of course these amps WOULD be "on" 24/7. I need to take this sort of risk into account.

As always, any comments would be helpful.

Thanks.

[bleeding ears]

ShadowZA, are you planning on taking these amps home for an audition in your own room with your own speakers?

I would be interested to know the results.

Also could you indicate what price range these amps are at?

Are they anywhere close to the cost of your RMB1075?

I have not heard of Nuforce in Oz. Anyone know if they are available down under?


Pete

[ShadowZA]

Pete, I'm only planning to get the B&W 803D's in March. Also, I have not been able to listen to the Classe CA-5200, nor the Krell KAV 2250 + KAV 3250 combo. These are the only other amps on my shortlist. Of course these amps are tried and tested. Even though their price is high, they have proved to be investments over time.

The bottom line is that here, in South Africa, the cost of 5 x Ref 9's is about 4 times the price of a new RMB-1075. And, the cost of the Krell combo above is about twice that of the 5 Ref 9's. The cost of the Classe amp is about 175% that of the 5 Ref 9's.

If you click on "dealers" on the NuForce site http://www.nuforce.com/index.htm there's a distributor called W.A.R Audio in Australia. That's how I found the South African connection.

Worth a try, I'd say. Good luck.

[ShadowZA]

There's a lot that I like about the Ref 9's, from the depth, resolution and clarity of the soundstage that they presented to me to the positive WAF factor all the way to their cost compared to Krell & Classe including the fact that they can drive virtually any load. Even though I'm not 100% sure what I'm going to do ... right now, the Ref 9's are leading the pack in terms of my upgrade plans.

[ShadowZA]

Some interesting points mentioned in this review:

http://6moons.com/audioreviews/nuforce2/9.html

I'm not "letting go" of Classe & Krell just yet

[DrJRapp]

I recently got to audition a pair of Ref 9s in my home for a week. I was impressed enough to immidatly purchase a pair to use in place of my Rotel RB 1080 in a dedicated 2 channel rig. They should arrive next week so you'll have my review soon.

[RebelMan]

I'm not "letting go" of Classe & Krell just yet

LOL :lol: Shadow, you crack me up and down up and down... I think you know my position, Classe' or Bryston are the ones to beat. I have heard only a handfull of Class-D amplifiers and the one that stood out for me, so far, has been the Bel Canto eOne REF1000. While I thought the nuforce Reference 9's did sound good I am rather concerned about QC. Based on early reports and my observations of nuforce's product line, there seems to be a pattern. One that is in a constant state of patching flux. When you compare this to the top-shelf QC of a high-end company like Bryston, it kinda makes you think... "you get what you pay for".

[ShadowZA]

RebelMan, you'll have to call me a yo-yo My feeling is exactly that ... you get what you pay for. Let it be said that I'm glad that I'm not impulsive. Or else, my better half (wife) would be ecstatic at the great looking Ref 9's but then explode should there be some problem down the line. I guess that this is what makes buying our toys such fun

Jerry, it would be great to read your thoughts. Thanks in advance. In the meantime, I hope that you are enjoying.

[ShadowZA]

For anyone interested, I received some replies to a query over here:

<competitive forum link deleted by admin>

[DrJRapp]

While I thought the nuforce Reference 9's did sound good I am rather concerned about QC. Based on early reports and my observations of nuforce's product line, there seems to be a pattern. One that is in a constant state of patching flux. When you compare this to the top-shelf QC of a high-end company like Bryston, it kinda makes you think... "you get what you pay for".

I would hesitate to draw comparisons like that. I don't think it's an issue of being top shelf or an underdog, I believe it's more an issue of company size. As a new producer, a company as small as NuForce needs it's purchasers to provide independent feedback, this helps improve the breed. The benifit of its small size is that NuForce is able to respond quickly to "issues". The constant state of patching flux you mentioned consisted of two upgrades, both of which NuForce is readily providing free to it's early adopters. I don't think that indicates a QC "problem" per se...just some growing pains. That all seems to have stabilized at this point. If you were to look closely at Classe or Bryston history, I'm sure you'll ultimatly find that they have done similarly.

While I was doing an in-home audition with an early pair of Ref9s, I experienced the so called QC issues (and they were very minor) and shared them online at another forum. NuForce responded immediatly without even being asked and requested I send them back the units for free upgrade. By comparison I seem to recall being the victim of real QC problems from a much larger company .."Rotel". There are some real horror stories here on HTG about people (myself included) trying to get upgrades to their RB1080s to solve blown channel issues and having to struggle with Rotel service to do so. So what do we have in NuForce, a "Classe" (Bryston, Krell, etc) or a "Rotel" ?

[pembroke]

ShadowZA,
I'm tempted by the new amplifier technologies, but see that NuForce still has a way to go in fine tuning its products compared with some of the other amp manufacturers. Channel Island Audio, for example, with its CIA100 and CIA200 have rave reviews, can you get hold of these in SA?
My local delaer claims that the latest B&W Nautilus range was 'voiced' together with the latest Classe processors amps etc. However, from all the serious respected HiFi community in the US I'm hearing that what happened to the dinasour is going to happen to class A A/B amps.
At the last CEA many non-mainstream boutique manufacturers where linking up the Dan Wright modded CD/DVD players with his Linestage preamp and the CIA Class D amps. All the commentators that listened to these combo's claim that the sound was very musical. I have a ModWright DVD player and Linestage, and can vouch for their incredible detail, musicality, and 3 dimensional soundstage - it's taken me over 30 years to get there, but for the first time music is fun to listen to. Next step - Class D!

[RebelMan]

So what do we have in NuForce, a "Classe" (Bryston, Krell, etc) or a "Rotel" ?

It stands to reason that a person with a vested interest would have some pause. I don't believe a company's size or experience has any bearing on how robust a product is manufactured. What is indicative is the way it is managed. This is not to say that nuforce is mismanaged, however, it would appear that the steps taken in the QA process could use some attention, Six Sigma anyone?

Additionally, I think it is unreasonable for a company to charge its customers to implicitly beta-test their products. If its feedback they seek, I am sure there are better methods to capture that information. I am willing to give the company the benefit of the doubt, but at another's expense. Unfortunately, I don't have the patience to wait and see.

I agree that all companies have problems, and how they deal with those problems is what separates the barely satisfactory from the superb. But I also believe that most of those problems can be prevented from reaching the consumer when proper steps are in place to do so. Sometimes customer service no matter how good just isn't enough. This hobby is primarily about purchasing products not the fringe benefits of service. I don't buy insurance with hopes that I'll need it.

I think it is a bit premature to put nuforce in the ranks of the likes of Bryston but maybe Rotel. It's a young company on a mission to supply high-end sound at low-end prices and frankly that is good. Rotel's mission is no different only they have been at it for much longer. Bryston, on the other hand, commands a steeper pricing paradigm but in terms of sound quality and product reliability you get your money's worth. Someone familiar with the the historical events that led to the advent of their twenty year warranty policy would know that they did not experience the same type or degree of issues that nuforce has. I'll say it again, you get what you pay for.

[DrJRapp]

One thing I'll say James....you certainly have a propensity to ignore facts in favor of advertising hype. Bryston instituted their now famous 20 year warrantee to boost sales (al la Chrystler Corp's famous 7 year warrantee) to combat a string of QC foupas that almost buried the company.

Perhaps it's just that you don't know how to do proper reserch?...lol Maybe the Professor needs to give some lessons.

OBTW... how is EMI related to EI?

[DrJRapp]

Additionally, I think it is unreasonable for a company to charge its customers to implicitly beta-test their products.

Unreasonable or not, it happens. Classe does that all the time. Any company with small production and a niche market has to. How many SSP600s do you think were sent out to beta testers? I can't speak for Bryston because I don't have a line of communications with them as I do with Classe.

Microsoft is using all of us who use Windows XP to implicitly beta test their products by provideing feedback through it's error reporting scheme. Is that unresonable in you opinion?

[CP-Mike]

what happened to the dinasour is going to happen to class A A/B amps.

While Class D is finally coming of age and is the hot technology du jour, I doubt that it will kill off Class A amps. Take significant market share, quite possibly, but I think there will always be a group of people who will stick with Class A. Just like tube amps are far from being "dead", even though solid state amplification is by far more pervasive.

BTW Jerry, it's spelled "faux pas".

[RebelMan]

One thing I'll say James....you certainly have a propensity to ignore facts in favor of advertising hype. Bryston instituted their now famous 20 year warrantee to boost sales...

Show me the money!

OBTW... how is EMI related to EI?

You tell me. OBTW, how are your customers doing??? :lol:

[RebelMan]

Unreasonable or not, it happens. Classe does that all the time. Any company with small production and a niche market has to. How many SSP600s do you think were sent out to beta testers? I can't speak for Bryston because I don't have a line of communications with them as I do with Classe.

Microsoft is using all of us who use Windows XP to implicitly beta test their products by provideing feedback through it's error reporting scheme. Is that unresonable in you opinion?

I don't think it is unreasonable if the objective is to rush a product to market, hint hint. I really don't expect any manufacturer to capture all of their issues. However, blatant problems are unacceptable coming from any respectable company, but I guess if one is willing to tollerate them from a lessor one than sobeit. Hopefully, the lesson learned here is that I don't support Microsoft, either.

Hopefully my intentions are not getting misconstrued. This is not nuforce bashing. I do have valid concerns and I am exercising my freedom to voice them. I believe in the tried and true, not with regard to any one technology but the company pushing it. The amps do sound good, but can you count on them? It's to early to tell but I'll be watching.

[DrJRapp]

If you believe Nuforce's advertising hype they have had less than 5 units returned as defective. The early units had a design issue bleeding of stored capacitor charges after shutdown. Then people were taking the low heat output too seriously and putting a stack of 5 in a closed cabinet with no ventilation. At idle a Ref9 burns 6 watts, a stack of 5~ 30 watts...all turning into undisapated heat. Therefore the 9.02 upgrade provides a thermal cutoff, not to solve a problem, but to prevent a potential problem. I think that is good forsight on behalf of the NuForce staff.

I think you will find EMI and EI have some common directors on the corporate level. My customers are doing well, thank you.

[CP-Mike]

Jerry, I find your analysis of NuForce adding in overheating protection a bit puzzling. Correct me if I'm wrong, but what it seems like you were saying is that the "original" NuForce Ref 9's did not have protection from overheating built in, but after people damaged theirs or complained, they added overheating protection. I would see this as poor engineering, not "good forsight". One of the fundamentals they teach you in first year of engineering school is that when you're designing something, you must take into account how it will behave in situations or environments it was not designed for, but may reasonably be expected to be in, given user error, short-sightedness, etc. For example, software engineers must design software that will "crash gracefully" through proper error handling...it shouldn't corrupt the entire system or otherwise cause damage. Granted, the Ref 9's put out much less heat than most other amplifiers, but they, like all high-power electronics, are susceptible to overheating. When a company produces amplifiers that are not able to protect themselves from overheating, and only fixes the problem after customers complain, that says poor engineering to me.

[RebelMan]

think that is good forsight on behalf of the NuForce staff.

It was a response they took to address public concerns once the word got out. But yes it was a good move on their part.

I think you will find EMI and EI have some common directors on the corporate level. My customers are doing well, thank you.

Boards of directors are comprised of a variety of corporate heads (plural), with similar and dissimilar industry affiliations. Perhaps it was just coincidence? Or perhaps it was an investment opportunity? Or perhaps B&W makes really good reference class speakers and EMI knows it? To imply that EMI purchased their equipment from B&W just because they have a some investors on board is stretching it a bit. Unless there's official confirmation it's just supposition.

[ShadowZA]

I'm tempted by the new amplifier technologies

Pembroke ... I'm as tempted as hell. I have just over a month left before I jump in and buy. In the meantime, I'm trying to do as much research, question-asking and listening as possible.

I haven't seen any CIAudio stuff here, however, I've read some glowing reviews though.

I'd like to see some serious competition amongst new applications of the technologies which could see well-known Class A & A/B amplifiers being seriously challenged.

[pembroke]

I guess I'm fortunate living in the US.
NuForce offer a full 30 day refund, CI offer a 30 day trial with a 10% restocking fee. I'm going to get both and do an A/B. I have a local HiFi buddy who has a vintage amp that has just been upgraded (we compared it with a Bryston 4BSST I had at the time and it blew it away), we will do an A/B with this.
It will probably be too late to help with your timing, but if you love the sound of the Nuforce then I know what I would do - its all about the music!

Good luck with your decision.

[DrJRapp]

BTW Jerry, it's spelled "faux pas".

My Doctorate is in Engineering...ever meet an engineer who could spell? We had English Lit 1 in my freshman year.....that was it for reading and writing.

[CP-Mike]

I'm a software engineer. I agree that not many engineers can spell or even write very well. I shared the stereotypical engineer's dislike of English classes, especially in college. But being an engineer doesn't preclude one from being able to spell correctly. It always makes me cringe when I see someone giving a presentation or a vendor trying to sell us something, and they have stuff blatantly misspelled. Or they ran a spell checker, but the word it replaced the misspelled one with was a completely different word. It's embarrassing. I mean, I get embarrassed for them. Stuff like that really hurts one's professional image.

So my post was just a heads up; I wouldn't want you (or anybody else) to botch the spelling in a professional environment.

[RebelMan]

CP-Mike, I hold a degree in Software Engineering too, but regardless of our educational backgrounds and the typographical error you noticed, the content of Jerry's message was understood. I believe your poignant observation is moving the topic off track so if any correction should be made let it be that. This is a casual forum where one shouldn't be chastised for grammatical mistakes. Let the inconsequential go and just enjoy the technical prose.

[DrJRapp]

Hey James...are you now our unofficial moderator?....LOL The above banter was just an overeducated engineer (me) making fun of himself. I didn't feel chastised at all. Be assured, the weekend is now over and this thread will be back on track tomorrow when my Ref9s arrive.

[CP-Mike]

Sorry to take stuff off topic, just wanted to make sure people weren't misunderstanding my post and feeling chastised or offended, because that was not my intention at all. It was, like I said, just a heads-up in case anybody cared.

And now back to our regularly scheduled discussion....

[Aussie Geoff]

Jerry,

I presume you will be getting the current model Ref 9.02s... These are the best value amplifiers I have ever heard... Simply amazing what they can do in the right system... Deep dry clean bass "to die for"... Sweet top end which goes on up for that sense of air and a very detailed midrange... They reveal amazing amounts of detail in a good system - information that is just hinted at my many amps. My only (very slight) criticism is a slight lack of sweetness in the midrange compared some some other very highly praised (and priced amps)... But for the money - spectacular... :T

Now if only I could afford 7 of them... ;x(

Oh - and I can't wait for your review... It will be interesting to see how you compair them to your new toy the Aragon 3005 and the (slightly less new toy) the Rotel RMB-1077 (Give them a good few hours to break in and leave them on all the time...)

PS - And now we are back on topic..

Geoff

[DrJRapp]

He Geoff

Yes, I will give them plenty of time to let the rough edges wear off. I've developed and initial impression from the loaners I had, but I'm going to wait for this pair to break in before I finalize my thoughts. Also, since I recently acquired a pair of ML Summits, I will now have 3 pair of significantly different speakers to test with. B&W XT4 3way domes, Klipsch RF7 2 way horns and the hybrid 2 way electrostatics. Expect some comparisons with Parasound Halo A21 also.

[sikoniko]

I have been using ref9's with my N802's since early november now and I am very impressed with them. I am saving up to buy a second pair to biamp and give my speakers the power they deserve.

I have had no issues with them. My one complaint is that they dont make a 5 channel amp that I could use to power my side and rear speakers. Its getting to be a pain how many outlets my system requires. heh. Ive decided to go with the halo a52 for the remaining while using ref9's across the front.

I would like to have an all classe system, but i just can't justify the expense. maybe one day i'll get a classe pre/pro. I have been seriously considering getting the ca-5100, but $5000 for a 5x100w amp vs. sub $2000 for the a52 5x125w, will I really notice the difference or am I just buying it to say I have it? I keep asking myself this.

[RebelMan]

Hey James...are you now our unofficial moderator?....LOL

LOL :lol: Naaah, I will leave that task to Geoff, he does a great job and I don't think he is looking for an assistant. By the way, didn't you sell the A21?

Speaking of Geoff, what other amps have you compared to the 9's? I heard the BelCanto eOne REF 1000's and I thought they were a little more polished. It wasn't a direct comparison between the two, but nevertheless, I was left with a better impression of them.

Dan, I am looking at all of the Classe' amps too including the CA-5100. For the money it would be the best option for me now. But I keep changing my mind. :roll: Geoff, what do you think about Classe' vs nuforce?

[ShadowZA]

But I keep changing my mind. :roll: Geoff, what do you think about Classe' vs nuforce?

RebelMan, it seems that you've caught what I've got ... a case of the "undecided blues" in C major :lol: The cure? None other than to take some spoonfulls of what Geoff, Jerry, Sikoniko (and anyone else out there) have to say.

One thing's for sure. The price is looking waaaaay good.

For the last 5 days I seem to have settled on the Ref 9.02's as the amps to get. I have a dealer ready to supply ... but I've been keeping him at a safe distance until I'm ready. That is ... really ready ... if there is such a thing. Geoff, your comments are a huge help, as are yours too, Jerry & Sikoniko.

Keep on postin' :T

[DrJRapp]

By the way, didn't you sell the A21?

Yes I did, but that doesn't mean I've forgotten how big a soundstage it had and how awful it's high end sounded.

[DrJRapp]

OK the Ref 9s are here. I'm going to let them break in on the B&W XT4s cause they really do wonderful things for those speakers and also they love being fed from the tubes in my Shanling. I may have discovered the ultimate "quick order" dedicated 2 channel system for those who like precision made high style shiny metal.

My RB 1080 is now doing duty as CB L&R amp on the main system. The Aragon 3005 handles everything else.

[GregLett]

Great, look forward to your comments

[DrJRapp]

I will serve no wine before it's time.....

[gostan]

My Ref 9's (v. 9.01's) have been powering my N803's and HTM1 since October, replacing my Aragon 8008ST. I have never looked back at my NuForce upgrade decision. Yet, I have wavered over time in regards to my initial cd player and initial pre-pro upgrades.

Four months of NuForce bliss only stokes my audiophile upgrade fires to consider upgrading my 9's to the new SE version when available later in February.

Stan

[DrJRapp]

Stan

What do you use as a CD player? The 2900? I can easily see where you would be enthralled by the Ref9s. There seems to be a special synergy between the NuForce amps and B&W tweeters that nothing can rival, even thier sibling brands of Rotel and Classe. For those of you who don't know, I origonally decided to purchase my Ref9s because the were the only amp that allowed my B&W XT4s to loose their "fuzziness" and sing crystal clear.

[gostan]

Stan

What do you use as a CD player? The 2900? I can easily see where you would be enthralled by the Ref9s. There seems to be a special synergy between the NuForce amps and B&W tweeters that nothing can rival, even thier sibling brands of Rotel and Classe. For those of you who don't know, I origonally decided to purchase my Ref9s because the were the only amp that allowed my B&W XT4s to loose their "fuzziness" and sing crystal clear.

Jerry:

I used to use the Denon 2900, but in fairly rapid succession I tried: (i) a Jolida JD100 which sounded wonderful, but had various quality issues; (ii) an Arcam CD36 which proved to be too revealing and not warm enough for my listening tastes, and (iii) my current and ultimate player being the Cary CD303-300 which balances unbelievably well with the Ref 9's and the B&W's.

A few weeks ago, I had the opportunity to reconfigure my equipment rack, so I took the opportunity to try the Aragon 8008 in place of the Ref 9's for old times sake. The Aragon simply did not prove to provide the lower end and fullness of the Ref 9's. I have become a firm believer that various components mate and balance with each other better than others and that our AV goals should be to find a balanced fit of various equipment. And my existing system is proving itself to be near living sounding proof of the need to try different components, speakers and interconnects in search of a near perfect balanced system. Other than some doubts about my pre-pro, I am almost there. Unfortunately for all of us, nothing will probably ever be perfect.

Stan

[tboooe]

gostan, i definitely agree about the Cary CDP..I love it! do you use the tube our ss output? I like the mellowness of the tube output it sounds a bit veiled to me. the ss output sound is full and dynamic but maybe a little artificial sounding. i want to get around to swapping tubes soon.

i am also thinking about getting a cary tube preamp as i am leanding towards a warmer sound also.

[EAmin]

Are there any plans to introduce a higher power mono? From what I recall, the Ref9s are 160 watts into 8 ohms.

[gostan]

Are there any plans to introduce a higher power mono? From what I recall, the Ref9s are 160 watts into 8 ohms.

With a peak response to 338 watts at 8 ohms w/20msc hold time.

[DrJRapp]

Stan

I too use a tube CD player..the Shanling CDT100A. I think the warmth of the tubes does wonders for the slight midrange dryness of both the Ref9s and my B&W XT4s. The three together sound spectacular.

I've had the opportunity to compare the Ref9s with my Aragon 3005 in my main system driving Klipsch RF7s. The Aragon at 350 wpc sounds much bigger yet is very delicate at low volumes. It also has more emotion. By next week I hope to be able to compare the two amps using my new Martin Logans....and throw the Rotel RMB 1077 in for giggles.

[ShadowZA]

The decision-making process is finally done. This morning I'm putting in my order for the Krell KAV-3250 to drive the pair of B&W 803D's + cente HTM2D. My reasoning is that I want something big and punchy to drive the 803D's. Had I stuck with the B&W N804's as front speakers then the Ref 9's might have been a serious contender. Please know that my decision should not in any way be construed to negatize the Ref 9's in any way. It's simply a matter of preference.

It will be about 3 to 4 weeks until I get all the stuff. Will put up a pic in the "Club B & W Speakers" forum then.

Here's another positive Ref 9 review: http://www.audiotweak.co.za/pdf/nuforce_avsa_review.pdf