Official Nu Force discussion thread at HTG

[gostan]

Stan

I too use a tube CD player..the Shanling CDT100A. I think the warmth of the tubes does wonders for the slight midrange dryness of both the Ref9s and my B&W XT4s. The three together sound spectacular.

I've had the opportunity to compare the Ref9s with my Aragon 3005 in my main system driving Klipsch RF7s. The Aragon at 350 wpc sounds much bigger yet is very delicate at low volumes. It also has more emotion. By next week I hope to be able to compare the two amps using my new Martin Logans....and throw the Rotel RMB 1077 in for giggles.

Jerry:

I agree. The tube players seem to mate well with the Ref9's and B&W's. They seem to balance well together to produce a type of audio nirvana. And your Shanling piece belongs in the Museum of Modern Art. And I love the fact that it makes playing cd's just like putting a lp on a turntable. It gets you more involved with the music.

Unlike, Tboooe, I find myself using the tube output 90% of the time v. about 10% ss output for some particular recordings only. On the Cary, I find warmth, detail and a tremendous soundstage with the tube output, the Ref 9's and the B&W's. Now, I am getting ready to do some tube rolling.

It is pretty amazing that the little Ref9's have a much deeper lower end than our much larger and more powerful Aragon's.

Enjoy the music.

Stan

[DrJRapp]

It is pretty amazing that the little Ref9's have a much deeper lower end than our much larger and more powerful Aragon's.

Enjoy the music.

Stan

Stan

I don't find that to be the case. A tad tighter perhaps, but not deeper or lower. In direct a/b the Ref9 is a bit "thinner" than the 3005. The size of the Aragon shines thru here. I thought I made that point clear.

[gostan]

Stan

I don't find that to be the case. A tad tighter perhaps, but not deeper or lower. In direct a/b the Ref9 is a bit "thinner" than the 3005. The size of the Aragon shines thru here. I thought I made that point clear.

Jerry,

My Aragon 8008 is only 200 x 2 at 8ohms and is far less powerful than your 3005. I suspect that is the difference. I should not have lumped our two different Aragon's together in my broad stroke descriptive reference.

[CP-Mike]

The decision-making process is finally done. This morning I'm putting in my order for the Krell KAV-3250 to drive the pair of B&W 803D's + cente HTM2D. My reasoning is that I want something big and punchy to drive the 803D's. Had I stuck with the B&W N804's as front speakers then the Ref 9's might have been a serious contender.

What do you mean, "big and punchy"? Did you find the Ref.9's to be not dynamic enough? Could you elaborate more on what made you change your mind about the Ref.9's? Earlier in the thread, it sounded like you were just about to go out and order the NuForces. I'm also curious as to what you thought about synergy with the 803D's.

[gostan]

The decision-making process is finally done. This morning I'm putting in my order for the Krell KAV-3250 to drive the pair of B&W 803D's + cente HTM2D. My reasoning is that I want something big and punchy to drive the 803D's. Had I stuck with the B&W N804's as front speakers then the Ref 9's might have been a serious contender. Please know that my decision should not in any way be construed to negatize the Ref 9's in any way. It's simply a matter of preference.

It will be about 3 to 4 weeks until I get all the stuff. Will put up a pic in the "Club B & W Speakers" forum then.

Here's another positive Ref 9 review: http://www.audiotweak.co.za/pdf/nuforce_avsa_review.pdf

Lots Of Luck with your new amplifier. No doubt that all of the myriad of amplifiers and other component choices keeps the AV manufacturers in business and we consumers constantly upgrading. And we all have different tastes that cause us to make different choices.

Example being, that I listened to the Krell 3250 with my N803's and thought that they did not sound great together. The Ref 9's gave me an entirely different reality. Then again, I thought little of the Krell pre-pro or Standard SACD Player, so I guess that I am not a Krelling kind of guy.

[ShadowZA]

Ok, what I like about Krell is the following:

1. Krell is already highly regarded as state of the art, high end audiophile gear. NuForce is not ... yet. I am a conservative accountant type who would rather blow some budgeted $ on something which is tried and tested, established and commands ongoing capital value. The fact that it is regarded as above is a material element of my decision making process.

2. I listened to the Ref 9's driving a pair of Bohlender Graebener 520i Planar speakers. Yes, the sound was awesome. But ... those speakers are very different to the B & W 803D's. The 803D's, again, are different to the 803S's and to the N803's. I would classify the 803D's as being bigger ... requiring a more muscular amplifier in general to get the best out of them. Let's just say that the 803D's, imho, are quite close to the 802D's.

3. Over the years I have heard Krell driving speakers by Martin Logan, Apogee, B & W (N800's if I recall), Vivid and something else which I can't remember. I have not heard the Krell actually powering the 803D's. No matter. I was always impressed and envious of the "punchy" full sound. It seemed to stir me in the gut. To me, it has presence. That is what I like. I have listened to the Classe sound ... but not at the same time as I've heard the Krells. Funny how, so often, the perfect comparason is so elusive. I liked the Classe sound too. To me it felt "warm", "smooth". I did feel that it was always meant to be matched to the B & W's. This is the reason that Classe was also on my mind. Ultimately, I want & need presence. Warmth is good. Presence is better.

4. The ultimate test, imho, is to spend a month with say 3 of your chosen amplifiers in your home and then decide. Of course the pragmatics of this borders on impossibility.

5. I have spent the last 4 days or so weighing everything up. Add to the mixture ... a little bit of greed, snob value, alternative psychology, great dealership relationship plus the fact that I have decided to split my upgrade (instead of doing everything at once). So the KAV-3250 is affordable right now.

So be it. Hit me with a "you're probably not ready for NuForce" ... etc. Does not bother me. I know that the Krell will not disappoint & that's what matters to me.

Please allow me to express a big "thank-you" to everyone here for their contributions and comments. Without them I would still be pondering in a sea of uncertainty. I was forced to seriously evaluate (and rate) exactly what it is that I like. Not an easy task ... but one which has now been won.

[gostan]

ShadowZA:

Thank you for your well thought out explanation. I am sure that you will be extremely satisfied with your new Krell 3250. Now you just have to wait it our until your new equipment arrives.

Stan

[ShadowZA]

ShadowZA:

... you just have to wait it our until your new equipment arrives.

Stan

That's harder than the decision-making process

[DrJRapp]

From my perspective your conservative decision making process is as valid as my aggressive/exploratory process. Enjoy those new amps!

Now, i defense of the Ref9s, I've listened to the 803Ds with them in a huge 30x30 room and they aquitted themselves just fine. Far more refined sounding than the Krell.

[ShadowZA]

From my perspective your conservative decision making process is as valid as my aggressive/exploratory process. Enjoy those new amps!

Thanks Jerry. You bet!

Now, i defense of the Ref9s, I've listened to the 803Ds with them in a huge 30x30 room and they aquitted themselves just fine. Far more refined sounding than the Krell.

We live in interesting times. Not only are we in the "information age", but technologies are advancing at a veritable rate of knots. What to do? Take early retirement to have more time to play with our toys :W

[CP-Mike]

But with early retirement comes less money to buy new toys....decisions, decisions.

[RebelMan]

The decision-making process is finally done. This morning I'm putting in my order for the Krell KAV-3250 to drive the pair of B&W 803D's + cente HTM2D. My reasoning is that I want something big and punchy to drive the 803D's.

Shadow, I feel like I have been left out in the cold. You've moved on and I'm still stuck in the "Undecided Zone" :lol: Actually, I think I have made up my mind too although at this stage it's become a "king of the hill" game that I am playing, mostly in my head. The special of the day is the Classe CA-5200. I still have intentions to audition the new Rotels, provided that they become available sooner rather than later but my patience is running very thin.

I also considered Krell, Mark Levinson, Bryston, Halo, Bel Canto and nuforce until they found themselves dropping off my list one at a time, each for very different reasons. Of the group Bryston was the biggest challenger and was VERY close to winning my pride. Chances are pretty slim that I will change my mind but you never know what may pop up and cause one to do just that.

For the moment I will forget about my troubles and wish you and your new family the very best together. :T

[RebelMan]

Now, i defense of the Ref9s, I've listened to the 803Ds with them in a huge 30x30 room and they aquitted themselves just fine. Far more refined sounding than the Krell.

What's your opinion about the Classe CA-2200 vs the 9's? And what IF (that's a big IF) the CA-2200 was price inline with a couple of 9's, would you change your mind about owning them?

[ShadowZA]

Shadow, I feel like I have been left out in the cold. You've moved on and I'm still stuck in the "Undecided Zone" :lol: Actually, I think I have made up my mind too although at this stage it's become a "king of the hill" game that I am playing, mostly in my head. The special of the day is the Classe CA-5200. I still have intentions to audition the new Rotels, provided that they become available sooner rather than later but my patience is running very thin. ...

RebelMan, it's a tough decision. It's also everything other than boring. If I can encourage you to "keep on truckin'." I have had quite a few sleepless nights and am fortunate that my better half didn't boot me out the house Maybe she will when the Krell arrives :twisted: (She did love the look of the Ref 9's). When you finally decide ... it WILL be the right decision for you & no one else has the right to talk you out of it. The only next task for you to do is then to enjoy :T

... and wish you and your new family the very best together. :T

Thanks, Rebelman. I've adopted your signature as a philosophy (you'll have to charge me royalties :P ) and if there's one thing I'm doing ... its enjoying my toys. I wish you the same. Good luck & look out for a pic on the B&W speakers forum in about 3 to 4 weeks time.

[ThomasW]

Jerry's having multiple problems with his Nu-Force amps, (overheating, incompatability with source components, not triggering the turn-on circuits in his Martin Logan). These are being discussed in depth on another forum.

[ShadowZA]

This sort of information is helpful. Thanks Thomas.

[Kobus]

Yes Shadow, this is the type of thing you like hearing now

How's the waiting, day 2 of 21+.

Enjoy.

Sorry to hear Jerry if it's true.

[ShadowZA]

Yoooo Betcha

It's a tough one, Jerry. The NuForce team seem to be customer orientated, though ... so here's hoping that the probs get sorted out.

[RebelMan]

Jerry's having multiple problems with his Nu-Force amps, (overheating, incompatability with source components, not triggering the turn-on circuits in his Martin Logan). These are being discussed in depth on another forum.

I've been following that off and on and it was part of my initial QC concern that I mentioned about earlier. Although he shouldn't be too surprised when signed up to beta test the new product. :lol: Okay that was a low blow, sorry Jerry, about everything. :cry:

[RebelMan]

Thanks, Rebelman. I've adopted your signature as a philosophy (you'll have to charge me royalties :P ) and if there's one thing I'm doing ... its enjoying my toys. I wish you the same. Good luck & look out for a pic on the B&W speakers forum in about 3 to 4 weeks time.

The signature comes royalty free to new Krell owners. :lol: I am looking forward to those pics, but three to four weeks is a LOOOOOOONG time to wait. Tell your dealer to hurry up because there are people counting on you! :rofl:

[Karma]

HI Shadow,
I have been following this thread because of my long standing interest in D class amps. I was experimenting with them back in the 1960's. It looks like they are finally coming of age. I'll wait and see how they fare. I've seen too many favs come and go.

I'm really writing to congratulate you on your new Krell KAV3250 amp. I predict you are gonna love it. The more you listen the more attached you will become. I have one of these beasties driving my three front channels on my bedroom, 805S based, HT system. The KAV series amps just don't seem to have any bad habits. And boy, are they FAST!!!!!!!!! They are the hammer of God when it comes to power delivery. All this and beautiful refinement too. I really wish I could use it on my subs.

Sparky

[nfjason]

I heard from our dealer that Jerry found a simple and elegant solution to his heat problem. He place the amps vertically next to each other.
This is a good recommendation for Nuforce customers who want to put a lot of amps in a tight spot. Just place them side by side vertically. But keep enough space between the amps for airflow.

Let's see if any Krell can do that . I know NuForce is new, but we have shown that we take good care of customers and provide excellent support even for discontinued product. The entire Reference series use the same circuit board so discontinued Ref 8/8b can be upgraded to next generation technology when it is available.

[DrJRapp]

Jerry's having multiple problems with his Nu-Force amps, (overheating, incompatability with source components, not triggering the turn-on circuits in his Martin Logan). These are being discussed in depth on another forum.

I wasn't going to post anything here until the situation got resolved one way or another. However, ThomasW has forced my hand. Yes, I am having issues with the Ref9s, however those issues are not about the quality, reliability or performance of the NuForce amps. It's more about how they behave under the conditions I am using them (stacked, in an enclosed, unvented cabinet). When I purchased these amps, I did so with the assumtion that because of their high efficiency, heat should not be an issue, as it was not an issue with the Rotel 1077s. This turned out to be an invalid assumption on my part since the implimentation of similar technologies of the 1077 and the Ref9s, is very different.

I have offered a solution to the NuForce team that completely solves the main problem I was experiencing, and at no cost. The speaker trigger issue is really a Martin Logan issue. The sensor in the speakers wasn't designed to recognize the type of signal that the Ref 9s, or for that matter the Rotel RMB 1077 or the Bel Canto EVO put out. Martin Logan has a fix and all speakers manufactured after Nov 2005 incorporate that fix.

Yes, there is some unanticipated effort required to make these amps work properly with my setup, and you may encounter them too, but the bottom line is that the effort IS worth it. They do sound fabulous with my XT4s. The 1077 doesn't even come close.

[pembroke]

All the US based posters have NO excuse not to give NuForce a demo - they offer a 30 day money back guarantee!
The only risk is when spouses see the UPS guy with more boxes arrive!!!

[Lex]

Ok, let me correct something as this thread moves forward. My moderators are not in the know that Nuforce is becoming an advertiser at HTG. So, please do not delete any more of Jason's posts. He will be given some latitude as an advertiser. His ad will be going up this week...

Doug

[ShadowZA]

HI Shadow ... I'm really writing to congratulate you on your new Krell KAV3250 amp. I predict you are gonna love it ...

Sparky

Thank you, Sparky. I can't wait till it arrives

[Lex]

Ok, I now have to ask that we take the KR** talk to a new thread in another area. This is the Nuforce thread.

I'm sure the guys will follow your lead to that thread for that subject matter Shadow. Congrats.

Thanks,
Doug

[ShadowZA]

... the bottom line is that the effort IS worth it. They do sound fabulous with my XT4s. The 1077 doesn't even come close.

Glad that you got sorted, Jerry :T

I'm still going to follow this thread due to "interest in latest technologies". I'm still curious to find out how the Ref 9's will compare to the new Rotel RB-1091/RB-1092 amps. I have a hunch, from what you have found, that the Rotel's "ice-power" sound will resemble the RB-1077 and that the Ref 9's are in a class of their own.

[GregLett]

Jerry,

I'm happy it all worked out :T

[Lex]

Your welcome in this thread, as is everyone, but we just need to be respectful of a new advertiser for HTGuide, NuForce! Welcome Jason from NuForce, unofficially now, officially, when I do it officially. lol.

Doug

[Adz]

Ok, let me correct something as this thread moves forward. My moderators are not in the know that Nuforce is becoming an advertiser at HTG. So, please do not delete any more of Jason's posts. He will be given some latitude as an advertiser. His ad will be going up this week...

Doug

Very Cool!
But I can't believe they were actually deleting posts???? What's that about.

[RebelMan]

Jerry, any objective opinion about Classe' vs nuforce (namely the CA-2200 and the 9's) would be welcome.

[Lex]

Adz, we protect our advertising value. This is not the place for policy discussion with members. But aside from that, the moderators were doing their jobs. Very simply, we do not give away marketing rights here. It is all we have to "sell" to keep our doors open. End of discussion in this regard.

Doug

[DrJRapp]

Jerry, any objective opinion about Classe' vs nuforce (namely the CA-2200 and the 9's) would be welcome.

That would be a very tough call. I think I would prefer the NuForce sound while you may prefer the Classe. This, of course would be somewhat speaker dependent.

I base this opinion on nothing more than a WAG. I have heard the 803Ds in the same room with a CA2100, 1077 and the Ref 9s.

The Ca2100 had a sweet top end but no bottom (as would be suspected from a conventional SS amp that is only 100 wpc). The 1077 acquitted itself very well on bass, but wasn't as crystal clear on the top as the other 2 and the Ref 9 (a 9.01) was the best of both worlds and by far sounded like the "largest" amp. I'm not totally sure how the CA2200 would change that comparison. It perhaps could have a more substantial bottom end than the 2100.

I mentioned the version number of the Ref9 for a distinct reason. In spite of allegations elsewhere, the NuForce "updates" have not been solely designed to solve problems, but are rather part of the company's policy of continuous product evolution. This sort of reminds me how Porsche operates. They introduce a model and then continuously tweek it for 10 or 15 years.

Anyhow, version Ref9.02 incorporates new opamps that extend HF bandwidth from 50 Khz to 100 khz. Here is where the speaker of choice enters the picture. One of the outstanding characteristics of the diamond tweeter 800 series is extended bandwith with less breakup up and distortion to about 80khz. While this is far above audible levels, both B&W and NuForce philosophies extoll the effects of these frequencies on the audible range. I can only presume then that the 9.02 Ref9s would sound even better than the 9.01 version.

Knowing your propensity to place form up as high as function, I believe that you would find the Classe much more pleasing to the eye. I do admit they are beautiful.
While not quite audio artwork like the Classe, the Ref9s are hansome, and portray the businesslike, rock-solid look and feel that I think NuForce is trying to convey. My Ref9s hide in a cabinet, so it really doesn't matter what they look like.

[RebelMan]

Thanks Jerry, your insights were very helpfull. With all that is going on in my personal life, namely our first baby on the way, I am nevertheless going to make a tenacious effort to get my dedicated room completed expeditiously. I still haven't "completely" made up my mind about which amp I want but if I "had" to make a decision today I could do it and be happy about it. Still it would be helpful if I could pit the 9's against the CA-2200 on familure turf and equal footing before I render my final verdict. Unfortunately, the local Classe dealer has been aquired by a major electronics chain and their new policy is no home demos. Well my policy has changed also... no more business.

You're right about my lust for showy equipment and I agree the Delta series is gorgeous but the sevelt looking 9's is appealing to me also and so is the price! In the mean time all I have to go on is the feedback from others. I thought about taking advantage of the nuforce demo program but it seems like it may be a bit of a hassle. But who knows I may change my mind about that too. I have given myself until March to make up my mind so there's still some time.

[ShadowZA]

Admins, please excuse me if I digress from the topic subject for a second or two. RebelMan, congrats & lotsa luck with your first newborn. I've been there & it's a beautiful time. It may be a little exhausting, but I was fortunate enough to keep a camera by my side at all times. Captured beautiful moments which are now translated into the best memories I have.

Good times await you :T

[Aussie Geoff]

Jerry - Glad to see your problem resolved... Now once that "wine has its time" I guess we can look forward to the review...

Jason - Welcome aboard - a great product and still the best value amps I have heard... Long may you remain with the Guide

Doug - Congratulations on the new sponsorship...

Geoff

[shep]

To anyone in the know - when the Rotel RB-1091/2 finally gets into stores, would love to hear impressions comparing to NuForce Ref9.

[DrJRapp]

I have a hunch, from what you have found, that the Rotel's "ice-power" sound will resemble the RB-1077 and that the Ref 9's are in a class of their own.

That is an understatement. Everyone here should already know how I love the sound of the 1077, but the difference between the rounded top end of the 1077 and the hyper-extended top end of the Ref9 is night and day with a speaker that is able to resolve that difference. The 1077 is a really good amp...the Ref 9 is world class.

[Aussie Geoff]

I serve no wine before its time...

How's that wine doing Jerry - nearly ready to serve?

Geoff

[nfjason]

NuForce compatibility list

We're now shipping hundreds of monoblocks per month and get asked about equipment compatibility (actually most of the inquires are for recommendations) all the time. So we decided to publish equipment that our customers, dealers or ourselves have tested to sound good with Nuforce products: http://www.nuforce.com/recommend/index.htm

If you're a Nuforce customer, please post your setup here or email it to us.
Equipment tested by Nuforce are not necessary superior than others so our own list is simply for those components that we have the opportunity to try it in our listening room.

Jason

[DrJRapp]

The wine is aging well. I'm holding off on my full review until Martin Logan's tech gets here and upgrades my Summits to work properly with the Ref9s. Those of you who follow this thread already know I have very positive overall impressions of the 9s, but I believe I want to wait to review them with some really world class speakers. That should reveal their true potential. :T

[Race Car Driver]

How did I miss this thread....
Interesting read, and cant wait to hear the outcome of these 7# puppies.

[tec333]

Hi all,

Although I am new here I would like to share my experience with the Nuforce amp.

This amp sounds amazing, taking on heavy weights like Classe and Mcintosh! (Pun intended of course.) Simply put I still can not believe my ears and eyes - this 'big' sound from this little box.

I have them on demo along with some B&W 804s. I also tried this amp with my bookshelf B&W N805.

I was driving my N805 with a B&K amp which I borrowed from a friend. He needed the amp back to power another zone in his house, so I was driving my N805's with my Denon 3805. After about two weeks I started looking for an amp.

These babies are only suppose to be 160w RMS but honestly it can hang side by side with other 200-300W solid state amps - and the good ones too. I compared the Reference 9's with the Classe CA-2200 at the dealer and prefered the Ref 9. It was driving 803S at the store.

I am still planning on doing an in house demo with the Mcintosh 252. So far I am really pleased with the Ref 9. It really sounds good to me and the price is a bit easier on the wallet than Mcintosh and Classe.

(I am still undecided about the 804S speakers but the amp I am about 90% sure I am keeping.)

On NuForce's website an upgrade for the 9.02 to the 'SE' special edition is available for $750. The price is not bad since the list price for the SE's is $2100.

I am just wondering if the extra $750 per unit will be worth it. From their website they say "The tonal balance remains unaltered, and when used in less than the most revealing and transparent systems, the advantages of the SE may not be fully realized." To me this sounds like a disclaimer saying - unless you have ears like a bat, you probably won't notice a difference.

Anyway, THIS AMP ROCKS!!! In my honest opinion it is a real break through in technology.

My only reservations:

1. fairly new company
2. fairly new product
3. do not know anything about their support/warranty/customer care

Even with the above - it really just comes down to the sound - I love it!

Tec

[DrJRapp]

"The tonal balance remains unaltered, and when used in less than the most revealing and transparent systems, the advantages of the SE may not be fully realized." To me this sounds like a disclaimer saying - unless you have ears like a bat, you probably won't notice a difference.

You probably coun't hear the difference if you had bat ears, and if you could it would only be slight. The SE is one of those products that exists to promote the presence of the company and people only buy for the prestige of saying they have NuForce's top priced amps. I think that this is an unusual move at this time since NuForce has yet to become a household word, and I don't think that the the industry is ready to label the Ref9 as "common", therefore needing a SE to stand out. I remember reading somewhere that the SE comes only in a unique copper color that makes it stand out from the rest of the equipment in your rack.