NuForce digital amp review. Snake oil?

[bigburner]

I would like to thank Aussie Geoff and Adz for bringing this little gem to my attention. Quite the most fascinating review I’ve read for a long time:

http://www.nuforce.com/reviews/Stere...8-July2005.pdf

So all you connoisseurs of fine audio in Audio Hideout, is this for real or just another dose of snake oil?

[jimmyp58]

Next Level will be finding out soon as I'll have a few on the way to test out for ourselves. I'll report back with our findings.

[Aussie Geoff]

Jimmy,

I'll be interested in your findings. I did a direct "head to head" of the Ref 8 against a Bel Canto Evo 2 and for my ears (and the others) once we got used to the amzing difference in sound - the extra detail and control of the Nuforce was was hard to believe... And I know the Bel Canot really well and love it!

I'm off to hear the new Ref 9 this weekend...

Geoff

[Andrew Pratt]

Keep us posted guys these have got my attention as well.

[David Meek]

Your link is broken. Is this the correct review? I looked at the site and from the comments, I'm assuming you are talking about the Reference 8?

Ref 8

Sounds really interesting. No, digital amps aren't snake oil. They are just one of the new technologies being rolled out in electronics. Those shots of the internals look really weird without a big transformer sitting there. Geoff, keep us posted on your review of the Reference 9, okay?

[Adz]

Jimmy - can't wait to hear the comparisons to your Bryston, Krell and other top notch amps you carry.

By the way, the owner/manufacturer of Nu Force has his own "circle" which has overrun the overall Forum that its on with its posts and new threads. EMAIL ME if anyone is interested in knowing the website.

[Spearmint]

Jimmy,

I'll be interested in your findings. I did a direct "head to head" of the Ref 8 against a Bel Canto Evo 2 and for my ears (and the others) once we got used to the amzing difference in sound - the extra detail and control of the Nuforce was was hard to believe... And I know the Bel Canot really well and love it!

I'm off to hear the new Ref 9 this weekend...

Geoff

Hi Geoff

Can you check out the RRP of both the Ref 8 & 9 in OZ?

Looking forward to hearing your comments on the Ref 9 and how it sounds against the Halcro MC20. I am after something to power my mains, as I have ordered the Elektra Theatre 7 for my centre & surrounds.

I see Perreaux have a new range also.

[Aussie Geoff]

Spearmint,

I'm not sure if is RRP or a discount but the Aussie $ quote I got from the distributor WAR Audio was:
> Ref 8 $2250 a pair
> Ref8B $2500 a pair
> Ref 9 $3300 a pair

I'll let you know how my listening goes...

Geoff

[Spearmint]

Spearmint,

I'm not sure if is RRP or a discount but the Aussie $ quote I got from the distributor WAR Audio was:
> Ref 8 $2250 a pair
> Ref8B $2500 a pair
> Ref 9 $3300 a pair

I'll let you know how my listening goes...

Geoff

Thanks Geoff,

The Ref 9's look like they might be in my sights, will give WAR a ring monday to find resellers in Victoria.

Looking forward to your comments on the amps...

[Aussie Geoff]

Spearmint,

Re the sound.... They are very good. The Ref 9s are tonally very similar to the Ref 8 but punchier with that "big amp" sound. Hard to compare as WAR only had the (also excellent) Bel Cantos to compare. However interestingly in the time I was there two others turned up. One to rave about beta 70W Bel Canto and how well it drove his speakers. He had brought in a pair of older model Stax Headphones and insisted everyone head how well the NuForce drove them. He had all sorts of amps at home, including Krell and raved over the Nuforce - just wanted a little more power than the 70W ones as they (surprise!!!) clipped on one channel when driving his Apogee speakers... He said the amp brought out qualities in his speakers (he had 4 pairs) he didn't know they were capable of...

Then another to return the Ref 8s he had taken home for a demo - similar rave reviews....

The sound is distinctive - very much like (I know I know) Single Ended Valve Amplifiers and (a little) like the classic Krell Class A amps. A sweet, neutrral and very detailed sound that is so fast, transients (bass mid and treble) are just instant, with the speakers always seeming under control.

So some more listening is in order I think!

Geoff

[gostan]

Spearmint,

Re the sound.... They are very good. The Ref 9s are tonally very similar to the Ref 8 but punchier with that "big amp" sound. Hard to compare as WAR only had the (also excellent) Bel Cantos to compare. However interestingly in the time I was there two others turned up. One to rave about beta 70W Bel Canto and how well it drove his speakers. He had brought in a pair of older model Stax Headphones and insisted everyone head how well the NuForce drove them. He had all sorts of amps at home, including Krell and raved over the Nuforce - just wanted a little more power than the 70W ones as they (surprise!!!) clipped on one channel when driving his Apogee speakers... He said the amp brought out qualities in his speakers (he had 4 pairs) he didn't know they were capable of...

Then another to return the Ref 8s he had taken home for a demo - similar rave reviews....

The sound is distinctive - very much like (I know I know) Single Ended Valve Amplifiers and (a little) like the classic Krell Class A amps. A sweet, neutrral and very detailed sound that is so fast, transients (bass mid and treble) are just instant, with the speakers always seeming under control.

So some more listening is in order I think!

Geoff

Geoff:
When will you get a chance to listen more? Do you think that they would do a proper job running N803's in 2 channel or a full surround setup of B&W speakers?
Stan

[Spearmint]

Wow thanks Geoff…

I sent WAR an email yesterday, and they responded very quickly, the Ref 9's are due in the end of the month and have a pre order special going which includes delivery to your door.

Currently I am tossing up between a pair of Ref 9's, the Halcro MC20, and Elektra 2ch Reference, for my 2ch duties.

[jimmyp58]

We have just received the go-ahead from NuForce....we are officially authorized dealers!

As I mentioned a little earlier, I have 3 Ref. 9's on the way to demo in my showrooms. We are going to demo them on some VMPS RM40's, VMPS LRC, VMPS RM30's, Dynaudio Contour S 5.4's and SCX center within a week of receiving them. We'll report our findings.

I am privileged to carry the products I have. I take it as an honor when a distributor or manufacturer gives us the green light to come on board. This product and company is truly special though because of the potential of the products they are producing.

Jim

[Indytown]

What do you guys think in of a bi-amp set-up for the lows and highs to drive a 802D or the 800D? Any thoughts?

That would be 2 Ref 9's for each speaker.

Indy

[Aussie Geoff]

Indy,

I think it would sound spectacular. I am trying to borrow some Ref 9s to try them on 802s but I don't know if I will succeed...

Geoff

[bigburner]

http://www.nuforce.com/reviews/Stere...8-July2005.pdf

Apologies for a broken link.

[bhuskins]

I posted this in the HT Forum as well but thought it was fitting for here as well:

Hi Guys,

I spent all day today comparing several amps, preamps and speakers with another 15 guys here in Fort Worth. Needless to say, one of the highly anticipated items we thoroughly reviewed was the NuForce Ref 9's that just came in. The pair was directly compared to several different amps and we controlled the amps with several different line stages. We used the Cary Audio SLP-98P Preamp, Dodd Audio Reference Preamp, Resolution Audio Opus 21 CD (with and without variable output), Cary Audio 303/300 CD (with and without variable output, both tube buffered and solid state outputs) along with several nice speaker selections including the Anthony Gallo Ref3's, Salk Sound Veracity HT1, Dunlavy SC-IV/A and several others. Top notch power conditioning and cables were used throughout. The amps we swapped in and out included the NuForce Ref 9's ("Digital Amp", $2,400 MSRP pair), Halcro Logic MC20 (2 Channel Digital Amp, $4,490 MSRP), Cary Audio CAD 500 MB ($6,000 MSRP pair), PS Audio GCA-250 (2 Channel Digital Amp, $2,995 MSRP), Parasound Halo JC1's ($7,000 MSRP pair), Dodd Audio 120 Watt Tube Mono Blocks ($5,200 MSRP pair).

After several hours of testing, there were definitely LOTS of opinions among the group of veteran audiophiles as to what was preferred. One consistency was that everyone kept coming back to the Gallo Ref 3's with amazement as to how such a relatively small speaker sounds so surprisingly big. It was definitely a winner for the day. The other big surprise for me was how awesome the Dodd Audio gear was. What an incredibly rich sound. The preamp is near flawless. Now the bad news, the glaring consistency within the group was how disappointed everyone was with the NuForce Ref 9s (no exaggeration - 100% of the attendees.) The Ref 9s just didn't live up to all their hype. I personally thought they created a very narrow sound stage and showed little to no life. I rarely say this about any brand, much less one for which I had high expectations. I really think they need to go back to the drawing board. This result was not consistent with the other "digital" amps. The Halcro and PS Audio units were awesome and really held their own against the big monoblocks. They had differences in sound in comparison to the monoblocks, but still a completely full soundstage with rich, extended bass (something the Ref 9s lacked.)

Sorry to disappoint as I know some of you have high expectations as I had, but figured you guys would want to know.

Feel free to ask questions while I have a fresh memory of the gear.

thanks,

Brent Huskins
Media Design
HTGuide Sponsor

[mitch57]

How did the Halo JC1s hold up in your testing environment? And where was the "sweet spot" so to speak? Which amps performed the best overall as far as your listners were concerned?

[bhuskins]

The JC1's were very well received by everyone. These guys are hard to beat, but they are above some people's budget. The have a fairly large sweet spot and extremely solid bass with well supporting mids and expressive highs. Very open, yet authoritative. The Halcro MC20 was the big surprise in my comparison. Halcro really set out to duplicate their signature sound found in the reference D68/D58/D38 ($20 to $60K) amps and they did just that. Excellent performance and definitely the absolute best digital amp I've ever heard and that list is fairly long now including Bel Canto and Spectron. The sound stage was full, the sweet spot was wide and the low end was very clean and accurate. I can also say that it doesn't stop with just outperforming other digital amps either. It was in the same league as the Cary and Parasound Monoblocks as well as the phenomenal Dodd Audio Tube's. At $4,495 MSRP, it's not cheap. At a good street price it will be extremely competitive and should be on anyone's short list. They have identical 2, 3, 5 and 7 channel chassis units so home theater and 2 channel can easily be accommodated. Everyone was highly impressed with the MC20...another winner for the day.

Brent Huskins
Media Design
HTGuide Sponsor

[Pieter]

Sorry to disappoint as I know some of you have high expectations as I had, but figured you guys would want to know.

The bowling ball hurtles down the aisle, strikes the lead pin...there's skittles flying all around.

[bigburner]

That's right Pieter, a bit like Mealamu heading for the line and Springbok defenders sprawled on the ground all around him.

[tboooe]

Thanks Brent. I am kiinda relieved to hear the nuforce did not perform that well. I am in full upgrade mode right now and would hate to have to replace my new a21 before it is even broken in!

[K~J]

Now the bad news, the glaring consistency within the group was how disappointed everyone was with the NuForce Ref 9s (no exaggeration - 100% of the attendees.)

Hmmm. I spoke with one of the attendees in person and heard a differing opinion. Sometimes I wonder if true opinions are surpressed when a manufacturer is personally in attendance.

I personally thought they created a very narrow sound stage and showed little to no life.

Did these units go through burn-in time? Also, when you say little to no life are you referring to warmth? If you're looking for warmth, then I can understand your affection for Gary Dodd's tubes. However, these are supposed to be incredibly detailed with quick dynamics by all other reports.

Which specific components were in the chain when you listened to the Reference 9s? How much burn-in time had they gone through? Also, could you elaborate a bit more on detail, dynamics, etc. I'd like to get an idea of what specifically you didn't like so I can make a note when I listen to them this coming week.

BTW, they are not digital amps.

Thanks.

-KJ

[nfjason]

NuForce only ship out production Ref 9 by FedEx ground in the US to dealers starting from August 25 and 26 (and it takes 3 days to get there). We did send a pair of pre-production Ref 9 to a Texas audiojam.
So how is it possible to breakin the amp by Sunday assuming someone even receive it on Friday? Ref 9 recommened breakin time is 75 hours.
NuForce amp has zero phase shift so unlike other amps, you should NOT toe-in the speaker as much as with other amps. That will affect the sound stage if you toe-in the speaker.
I would be very careful of such a biased comment.

Jason

[K~J]

Well, I decided to follow up with one of the attendees since I was intrigued by Brent's thoughts. The amps used at the audio jam were pre-production Reference 9s. Jason from Nuforce has been swamped with demand and these units were the only ones he had available. The pre-prod units had a non-standard case and less capacitance than the final production versions. Additionally, the new power cord that is shipped with production models was unavailable so the group used another one (not sure what kind). I inquired about the number of hours on the unit and was told burn-in was limited mostly to in-house Nuforce testing.

So, to each their own. Since I'm not a big tube amp guy, I'm still eager to hear these babies. Especially given their price point!

-KJ

[K~J]

Oops! Jason beat me to the punch. Well, at least my source appears accurate.

-KJ

[bhuskins]

Sometimes I wonder if true opinions are surpressed when a manufacturer is personally in attendance.

No manufacturer from Nuforce was present, so I'm not sure what that is supposed to mean.

Did these units go through burn-in time? Also, when you say little to no life are you referring to warmth? These are supposed to be incredibly detailed with quick dynamics by all other reports.

As far as I know, these units had ample burn-in (something around 500 hours was stated) from the factory. Also, being that they were sent to a show for public demo and being that they were pre-production units, we were told it had no real impact on the overall sound, just cosmetics.

When I say little to no life, I was referring to the overall sound stage. It was not open and realistic. It sounded like a veil was placed over the music. Don't get me wrong...it wasn't as if they sounded like total crap...they just didn't do it for me.

Which specific components were in the chain when you listened to the Reference 9s? How much burn-in time had they gone through?

We listened to the Nuforce under about 10 different setups. Both tube and solid state. Pretty much everything that I listed was put into the chain one way or another.

Brent Huskins
Media Design
HTGuide Sponsor

[bhuskins]

NuForce only ship out production Ref 9 by FedEx ground in the US to dealers starting from August 25 and 26 (and it takes 3 days to get there). We did send a pair of pre-production Ref 9 to a Texas audiojam.

And these are the units I heard. I wouldn’t think a sub standard set of units would be sent out for public review would they? I was told that cosmetics were the only differences.

So how is it possible to breakin the amp by Sunday assuming someone even receive it on Friday? Ref 9 recommened breakin time is 75 hours.

It was told to me that these had about 500 hours on them.

NuForce amp has zero phase shift so unlike other amps, you should NOT toe-in the speaker as much as with other amps. That will affect the sound stage if you toe-in the speaker.
I would be very careful of such a biased comment.

We tried it with and without toeing in the speakers...

Biased comments are kind of funny. If anyone is going to have one it's going to be someone that works for the manufacturer. Yeah, I'm a dealer for about 120 lines of A/V but I had all intentions to review the Ref 9's and to become a dealer for them as well so where's my bias? I know you don't like what I had to say, but it's just an unbiased opinion.

Brent Huskins
Media Design
HTGuide Sponsor

[bhuskins]

Well, I decided to follow up with one of the attendees since I was intrigued by Brent's thoughts. The amps used at the audio jam were pre-production Reference 9s. The pre-prod units had a non-standard case and less capacitance than the final production versions.

Supposedly sound was not impacted. If so, and if so substantially, I'll have to review them again. It seems kind of silly they would send out bad sounding amps though knowing how they were going to be used.

Additionally, the new power cord that is shipped with production models was unavailable so the group used another one (not sure what kind).

It was a very high end power cord (a couple different ones if I'm not mistaken.)

I inquired about the number of hours on the unit and was told burn-in was limited mostly to in-house Nuforce testing.

Which was supposed to be around 500 hours.

So, to each their own. Since I'm not a big tube amp guy, I'm still eager to hear these babies.

I'm not a tub guy either...the farthest I go is with tube buffered CD players...everyone should give one of these CD players a try whether you're an SS or tube guy.

Maybe I'll still consider them if there is/was a huge difference in the ones I listened to and production units.

Brent Huskins
Media Design
HTGuide Sponsor

[K~J]

No manufacturer from Nuforce was present, so I'm not sure what that is supposed to mean.

I was referencing Dodd Audio, GR Research and Cryo-Parts.

As far as I know, these units had ample burn-in (something around 500 hours was stated) from the factory.

I'm guessing from Jason's comments they needed some more time. I'll try and dig up the recommended quantity of hours for good burn-in and report back.

We listened to the Nuforce under about 10 different setups. Both tube and solid state. Pretty much everything that I listed was put into the chain one way or another.

Sounds like it was a good jam with lots of gear. Unfortunately, I know how hard it can be to critically listen during audio jams when you have 20 people trying to get time in. When I get a chance to hear them this coming week, I'll compare both pre burn-in to post burn-in to see how much of a difference it makes. From some of the professional reviews, it is apparently significant.

-KJ

[K~J]

It seems kind of silly they would send out bad sounding amps though knowing how they were going to be used.

I don't think the amps sent were "bad." They were most likely fresh off the line and required the obligatory burn-in time.

It was a very high end power cord (a couple different ones if I'm not mistaken.)

Cool, which ones? Any chance the new VH Audio one was there?

-KJ

[bhuskins]

We have to limit cable talk do to the forum rules...

Brent Huskins
Media Design
HTGuide Sponsor

[bhuskins]

If 500 hours isn't enough...how many hours do these guys need?

Brent Huskins
Media Design
HTGuide Sponsor

[K~J]

We have to limit cable talk do to the forum rules...

I don't think mentioning the names will kill anyone. Wasn't looking for an in depth discussion on them.

If 500 hours isn't enough...how many hours do these guys need?

75 hours are required per Jason's earlier post. So, I guess whoever told you 500 hours was inaccurate since Jason shipped them out.

-KJ

[bhuskins]

If Jason shipped them out then he should know how many in house hours they had...500 was what was stated.

Jason? how many was it?

Brent Huskins
Media Design
HTGuide Sponsor

[nfjason]

I promised to loan something to someone (Lee Weilan) who posted on Audiocircle about the Texas audio jam but since we have nothing available to ship (still none will be available until end of Septemper as everythinig is sold out) and I don't want to disappoint Lee, I sent him a prototype amp to check it out. Each amp required 75 hrs of breakin time. The the prototype units were built for various QA and listening test but since we keep swapping them around and changing stuff, I have no idea how many hours of breakin was with the units that were sent.

I NEVER mentioned that it will take 500 hours to breakin (where did that come from?).

6moons, stereotimes, soundstageav reviewers have spent hundreds of hours carefully evaluating NuForce Ref 8 (Ref 9 uses the same circuit board as Ref 8 ) and you can read their comments.

Everyone is entitle to their opinion. But when you posted something about a review, I would expect you to check with the person who is handling the Ref 9 prototype to present some facts along with your reviews.
I also checked with Lee that he doesn't know most of the people that.
You are the dealer of Gallo and Halcro (and you are very familiar with the amps and their setup but not NuForce).
I also learned that the listening room is very noisy and there were people talking. Is the a right way to evaluate an amplifier that you're not familiar with in such an environment and then compared it with other equipments that you're very familiar with?
An unbiased review is one that include some facts about the amp, the conditions in which amp is being evaluated etc.

Jason

[David Meek]

Before this degenerates into something unpleasant, let me remind everyone that spirited and informative discussion is encouraged here, disagreements are a natural result of the discussion of peoples' opinions and are quite normal. However, sniping and cutting comments are NOT allowed and will not be tolerated. Play nice in the sandbox people.

HTG Moderator

.

[David Meek]

My personal opinion on this is that once non-prototype Ref 9s are available for shoot-outs or head-to-head comparisions then the results will be of more interest to me.

Being pragmatic about the whole thing, if you look at the Brent's original post of the shoot-out you'll notice that the Ref 9s were up against competition that in all but one case was almost (or more than) double the price. That put them up against some pretty serious amplification, so is it that surprising that in direct listening they didn't perform quite as well as the competition?

FWIW, a pair of the Halo JC-1s are on my very short list of amps to consider when I upgrade, so anything that is directly compared to them will be worthy of note (to me).

[nfjason]

If Brent is responsible for setting up the system and wanted to post a review, then he should at least verify some facts with Lee (as a dealer of Halcro etc, he is obviously very familiar with the amps that he brought there!). I don't care to dispute Brent's opinion (or his supposely summary of everyone's opinions). I already pointed out some other different reviews and let readers form their own opinion.

Ref 9s were up against competition that in all but one case was almost (or more than) double the price. That put them up against some pretty serious amplification, so is it that surprising that in direct listening they didn't perform quite as well as the competition?

No, you are implying that more expensive amps are expected to sound better and that's just not our intention for Ref 9. We price it not to be the best amp in a certain price category. We designed the Ref 8/9 to be the best amp we can (at least for the current circuit version) and then priced it to reflect our cost and desire of making it affordable for more people. I am sure you have come across lower price amps that sounded just as good as more expensive ones.
It is well known that the high end audio market is shrinking rapidly and just about every dealers have moved into home theater market. It is inevitable that the convergence of media devices and proliferation of digital music formats will create a new generation of audiophiles not willing to pay the high price of traditional linear, solid state or tube amp. We priced our amp to reflect what we see as a trend, not to break new grounds here . Selling high end audio is a high touch service. And we don't have a clear solution of where the right price should be. But judging from the response to our sales and the multiple amps that our dealers are able to sell per customer, I believe this is a doable win-win situation. Consumers get more bang for their bucks (bi-amping, tri-amping, surround sound using monoblocks) and dealers get to maintain the same revenue per customer. What I do know is that if we don't keep offering better values at good price to newer generation of audiophiles, in 10 years time we'll all be selling PC or game based system that has some audiophile grade ICs.

[David Meek]

No, you are implying that more expensive amps are expected to sound better

Jason, unfortunately you are in error with that statement. Any inferences other than the fact that your amp was in a comparison with established amps of above average build and sound quality - fighting out of a weight class if you will - are your own. There was no negativity associated with my comment. Pricing IS one of the basic buyer measuring sticks - for better or worse. And for better or worse, companies that try to produce a superior product for less than is the market norm for its performance class have to recognize that until that premise about their product is proven, price WILL be a measuring stick. If you are making substantially less per unit than the industry standard, then I commend you heartily. If your level of design, of build quality, of internal component quality and output sound is similar to or better than the JC-1s or the Cary and you charge half, then I'll do more than commend you.

I do strongly recommend that you back off the rhetoric for a minute and re-read some of the earlier posts in this thread on the introduction of the Ref 8 and 9, and also in this one. My own initial comment was

Sounds really interesting. No, digital amps aren't snake oil. They are just one of the new technologies being rolled out in electronics. Those shots of the internals look really weird without a big transformer sitting there. Geoff, keep us posted on your review of the Reference 9, okay?

The only negative comment other than of the results of the shoot-out was one about the optional gold color - which is completely irrelevant to the sonic qualities. Most of the posts have been ones of positive interest.

Let's do what we can to keep it that way.

[David Meek]

Let me amplify on my "price premise" comment (the audience groans ). At a a price of $X for an amp, generally you get a level of internal components I'll call X. If you spend $2X, you enable the manufacturer to spend 2X on the various parts making up the amp. Whether the mfgr really spends 2X on the pieces is open for debate, however I'm willing to walk out on a limb and say that the majority of them being people of integrity will handily improve the internals with that much more of an operating capital window - if not quite doubling their cost. We - as end-users - can generally (indirectly) discern this happening by improvements in the sonic quality the amp at that 2X price is producing. Whether that 2X price is affordable to the buyer is a moot point in this example. Oh, by improvements let's just say that I'm talking about things like lower noise floors, better channel separation, better sound-staging, etc. I don't want to get into a "clinical vs. euphonic" debate. Please, please. . . .

I am sure you have come across lower price amps that sounded just as good as more expensive ones.

Yes, that is true - to me. It is also true that there are hideously expensive amps that sound terrible - to me. They may produce sonic nirvana to someone else, but I can only go by what I hear and like.

[Adz]

If your level of design, of build quality, of internal component quality and output sound is similar to or better than the JC-1s or the Cary and you charge half, then I'll do more than commend you.

Hmmmm....If I've done my math correctly, then each Ref 9 would be around a third (1/3rd) of the price of a JC-1!! ;x(

[bhuskins]

I've pretty much written this off to a bad set of amps...I don't want to spread negative comments about a company that may in fact have a good product. I'll be happy to review a production set and properly break them in while correctly setting them up. By the way, if you peruse audio circle in regards to the demo I heard you'll find similar comments as mine. Based on what I heard, while the Ref 9s were playing on the Gallo Ref 3s (speakers that I'm very familiar with), I did not like the sound. It didn't compete with comparably priced amps either from my reference. The sound from a comparably priced Rotel RB-1080, Cary Cinema 2, Halo A21 or Bryston 2B SST all have a preferable sound to me on the Ref 3s and I don’t carry all of those brands. This is where it stands with what I heard. I would love to be corrected by reviewing a pair from final production.

A few comments...

But when you posted something about a review, I would expect you to check with the person who is handling the Ref 9 prototype to present some facts along with your reviews.

The facts I presented were merely my opinion...your attacks on my opinions are not a favorable way to promote your product here for free on HTGuide. I suggest that if I need to correct information or if there is an issue with the gear reviewed (damaged/unbroken-in/pre-production/whatever) that you contact me privately to have me correct this in the thread versus attacking me and making yourself look bad while representing your company and your product.

You are the dealer of Gallo and Halcro (and you are very familiar with the amps and their setup but not NuForce)

What difference does this make? I know what my ears heard. I've been in the industry for 15 years and a hobbyist for 20 years. Being that I was a dealer present at the Jam, I actually stayed out of the set up procedure...EVEN for the gear that I brought...I did this on purpose to try and keep a more objective opinion on everything that I heard and to not give an advantage to any one piece. I don't even think that I spoke once about my opinion of the NuForce. I discussed it quite a bit, but didn't really divulge my personal opinion to avoid showing any "bias". But like I said before, some of the non-manufacturer attendees were VERY vocal about their disappointment of the Ref 9s at the Jam.

I also learned that the listening room is very noisy and there were people talking. Is the a right way to evaluate an amplifier that you're not familiar with in such an environment and then compared it with other equipments that you're very familiar with?

For every hour of listening there was probably 15 minutes of talking and chatting. There was still plenty of equivalent quality listening between models. The argument that the environment is what caused my bad preview seems odd. It wasn't so with most of the other items I heard that I was unfamiliar with as well. If what I previewed would have performed better in a different environment/setup, that's one issue. The idea that it should be blamed on a lack of break in or that it was pre-production, is a completely different issue. Which is it?

If Brent is responsible for setting up the system and wanted to post a review, then he should at least verify some facts with Lee (as a dealer of Halcro etc, he is obviously very familiar with the amps that he brought there!).

I wasn't responsible for setting up anything...including the gear I brought. I thought it was kind of cool that the Gallo Ref 3s kept being set up when I wasn't even around and were the speakers that finished out the day...not by my doing I might add.

It is well known that the high end audio market is shrinking rapidly and just about every dealers have moved into home theater market.

Where in the world is this fact coming from? Quite the opposite. My business has grown on average 20% per year over the last 10 years and high end audio continues to increase in that mix. I started out in home theater and progressed into 2 channel. Home theater is still the bigger portion of my business and I don't expect that to change. I will agree that the stereo guys of the 50s, 60s, 70s and 80s had to move into home theater to stay current, but that was in the early 90s, not now. The stereo only shops are far and few between at this point, but that's nothing new.

It is inevitable that the convergence of media devices and proliferation of digital music formats will create a new generation of audiophiles not willing to pay the high price of traditional linear, solid state or tube amp.

I think audiophile is the wrong word to use here. It may be a new market segment and all power to you for catering to it if you want, but it won't replace the current audiophile market IMO.

What I do know is that if we don't keep offering better values at good price to newer generation of audiophiles, in 10 years time we'll all be selling PC or game based system that has some audiophile grade ICs.

Not likely IMO...more features and integration, yes...but I don't have the same doomsday outlook for the audiophile market and for the industry leaders that are currently running the market. The next generation of DVD will take us another 10 years likely and will do so for audio as well. Anybody know how you're going to rip a Blueray or HD-DVD yet?

Brent Huskins
Media Design
HTGuide Sponsor

[nfjason]

I do strongly recommend that you back off the rhetoric for a minute and re-read some of the earlier posts in this thread on the introduction of the Ref 8 and 9, and also in this one. My own initial comment was

David, what rhetoric? If you read my posting, I didn't attack you or your comment in a negative way. I agree with your reply and it is well said. Seems that the atmosphere has been poisoned and we should all back off.

Brent, I agree that I should have sent you a PM before I posted my response. But judging from the look of the prototype Ref 9, it was obvious that it is not a production unit (and I told Lee that it was a prototype). In addition to that, I was told (not by Lee) by someone that it is not true that the opinion was unanimous. So when I read your posting, it appeared to me that you are being bias. Unfortunately message board doesn't allow quick two way conversation or for people to read each other's expression.
How do you expect me to think that you are being fair when your further response continue to include personal attack ? You used the phrase "making yourself look bad".
If you have said in your original posting of the review about how the setup was done and qualified that the Ref 9 was a prototype AND a lot of the people around you were disappointed with it ....then I will be ok with it.
Let me offer an example.
If I posted somewhere that "everyone who visited Brent's showroom said that it is badly setup and ...", how would you response? Would you send me an IM first or do you think your first reaction will be to post a reply complaining that my posting is bias because it should have been obvious to me that the showroom was under renovation etc. Misunderstanding let to further misunderstanding and attack let to further counter attack.

[gostan]

It is obvious to all of of who are watching the Jason-Brent NuForce "Texas Jam" debate that you are both only going to agree to disagree. While I appreciate David's attempt as Moderator to mediate this discourse, Brent & Jason, you both continue to be appear to be heading in the same direction, almost trying to be conciliatory, but mostly adversarial to the end.

As David has suggested:

My personal opinion on this is that once non-prototype Ref 9s are available for shoot-outs or head-to-head comparisions then the results will be of more interest to me.

I agree with this approach. I am also very interested in the Reference 9's (in fact my system upgrade is stalled at 2 channel awaiting more information before I choose a new 3 or 5 channel amp, or similar mono-blocks). Nu-Force should forward production Ref 9's for demo in Texas. Brent and David should be at the demo. And Jason should get on a plane with the Ref 9's and personally supervise the demo. Then, there are no excuses as I assume that there must be some current production Ref 9's in California and you all can personally meet, talk, and, most importantly, listen together.

Until this occurs, this diatrabe should be taken private as it is not shedding any real light on the production Ref 9's. This puts this entire thread on very slippery snake oil.