The next step...

[Taito]

Hi all, over the past year or so, I have been putting together what I consider to be a very nice stereo system. My current list of kit includes:
-Rotel RCD-1072 cd player
-Rotel RC-1070 preamp
-Rotel RB-1080 power amp
-JMLab Cobalt 826S speakers
-Soundstyle XS105 rack
-Audioquest Bedrock biwire speaker cable
-Generic interconnects -these come later (will drop you a line one of these days Doug)
-Thor surgeshield A2

Now, my question is this: If I were to add a turntable, what should I be looking at -I can spend about $1000AU and am considering the Project 1 Xpression with speedbox and a decent MM cartridge (hear the Xpression is easy to set up -also helpful).

The other question... Is it worth me getting into vinyl? I have very little experience with Vinyl (am only 21) but am quite interested in this mechanical device that can be more musical than CD. I know, I should probably buy a cheapie to see... but that would be an unfair advantage to my CD player.

Anyhow... thoughts, suggestions, hints, experiences.... Thanks guys, Ben

[David Meek]

Hi Ben,

Okay, going in I have to admit I'm a bit of a vinyl fan-boy so keep that in mind.

I do think it's worthwhile getting into vinyl. Not only is there a huge selection of used albums available, there are more and more new pressings available every month. Admittedly many of the new pressings are of jazz, classical and the like, but there are some rock cornerstones being re-pressed. There are rumblings about Sony announcing it will be getting back into vinyl in a major way.

One question: Does the 1070 have a phono input? if not, you'll need to purchase a phono-stage to run the TT into, and then run the phono-stage outputs into one of the standard inputs on the 1070. This isn't a big deal BTW. There are many good, inexpensive phono-stages to choose from.

As to what turntable. . . . Whatever you do - if at all possible - you need to set aside a good bit of time for auditioning. The combinations of turntable, arm and cartridge can be used to output an amazing number of different "sounds" and finding just that one may take some time. Having said all that, the Projects are good, solid TTs for what they cost. Also in that range I'd suggest the Music Hall MMF-5se and if you can stretch a little, the MMF-7, which is one I seriously considered. Thorens makes the TD-190 which I haven't seen or heard, but is getting some good press. Rega has the P3 (here's an image) which is another very fine unit. Some of these can be purchased as packages with cartridges already mounted which is a good thing for someone just starting out.

And, here's the obligatory "if you can stretch a bit more" portion of the show. I strongly recommend the Nottingham Analog Horizon, (image). It comes with a Rega RB250 arm and equipped with a good cartridge it puts out an amazing sound for its price. It is going to be about $1,300-1,500 US (depending on the cartridge) but you get so much more music out of it. I purchased this TT and put a Grado Sonata Reference cartridge on it. Bliss!

[Taito]

Hi David, thanks for the prompt reply.

Firstly, the 1070 does have an MM phono stage, which, according to a particular review (cannot find it) is good enough to justify the cost of the unit on its own (about $500 US, I believe).

I have also read good press on the Rega P3, and will check out your other suggestions. For now, I am in the process of arranging to borrow a TT (although, at this stage, I do not what make or model it is. I do know that it is reasonably old, of reasonable quality and in very good condition).

I have read a few posts of yours on the Nottingham, and saying that you seem happy with it would be an understatement.

My only real exposure to vinyl so far was with a Hitachi TT (I'd gues from the 80's) about six months back. The sound was definately different to what I'm used to (CD) I was intrigued. Having been exposed (primarily) to cassette (not for years) and CD (from 91) for my music listening life (born in 1984), to me, this 'new' technology was a big surprise - I am quite comfortable with sampling and digital signal storage/reproduction. I was simply astounded that a mechanical and analogue system could rival what I had been conditioned to believe was the top of the pile. Sorry about the ramble, but this experience did open an audio avenue that I would not have otherwise considered (and I am still wowed by the whole concept of vinyl -new roughly how it worked, but never thought that it could really stand up. That's lack of exposure for you 8O ).

Thanks again, Ben.

[Spearmint]

Hi Ben

I am not knocking the fact that you are looking at getting into vinyl, but besides the cost of the turntable and cartridge etc, you also need to cost up the available recordings. You may have reasonable supplies in SA but to date I have not come across a store with a good selection of new recordings, therefore you maybe left with the possibility of importing them. Importing is fine just need to check how much the freight is, and this will determine the sort of investment you are looking at. I import many DVD’s & CD’s etc and it is the freight charges that can make some of the purchases expensive, I expect the cost of the vinyl to be dearer due to their size and being some what fragile.

[Cracking Oboe]

Hi Ben,

I can understand your attraction to vinyl. Just the turntable alone allows for hours of tinkering... stylus alignment, tracking, isolation pads, and various cartridges with endless upgrades available!. As well, you get the tactile pleasures of cleaning your LP each time before playback, and the visual pleasures of watching a thin metal stylus at the end of an elegant tone arm track over a rotating shinny black plastic disc. Oooooh, it gives me goose bumps just to talk about it!! :dothewave:

However IMHO, with the improvements made in CD playback over the last decade, there has been less and less reason for me to think that vinyl is better sounding. Yes, there were some sonic advantages over CD, but they have been getting smaller (particularly with the CD playback quality of your system!). The disadvantages of vinyl include background noise, (snaps and pops from the album... and just one small one can pull you out of the moment), wow and flutter (which produces a cyclic deviation in pitch), rumble from the platform, and then there is the care, maintenance, and storage of your LP's, along with the inevitable scratch which makes an album unlistenable. :x

Personally, I'm glad to be done with it! I have really enjoyed DVD-Audio lately (from an RDV-1060), and I feel that this format has finally bridged the gap between usability/convenience and sound quality. I pulled out an LP last month and turned it off after the first few tracks. DVD-Audio has replaced any desire for me to listen to vinyl . ...Although I must admit, I loved putting on the LP for a spin, I just didn't like listening to it.
Save your money... of course this is just IMHO.


Cracking!

[Taito]

Cheers for the suggestions so far.

Spearmint, I am aware of an obvious lack of releases from modern artists vs. CD, but today I went into The Muses, and their relatively small collection included releases from Powderfinger, Coldplay, U2, Pearl Jam & Foo Fighters. I have also seen Jet and Franz Ferdinand -all artists that I listen to reasonably regularly. On top of this, Big Star has a significantly bigger selection (including used). With my tastes in music, the titles available cater for me much better than the high-res digital formats do.

So long as more such artists are gradually released, I would be happy -I prefer to become very familiar with recordings rather than go through a whole lot.

When I borrow a TT, the experiment will not be a direct comparison with my CD player, but to see how I enjoy the music produced over a reasonable period of time.

If there are any more suggestions, thoughts, ideas etc. I'm more than happy to hear them. Thanks, Ben

[Spearmint]

Taito,

That is great you can find recordings of music that you like on vinyl.

Not to be negative here and please excuse me if it comes across this way, another thing you should try is an external DAC for your CD player. I had not listened to 2ch channel music for many years although I own a reasonably large collection of Vinyl and substantial quantity of CD’s, it is only recently that I have indulged myself again with 2ch audio. Reading posts on forums, talking to dealers, and also owners of external DAC’s I ventured forward and purchased the Benchmark DAC1 to got with my Rotel RCD-1072, these things are absolutely brilliant IMO, the quality of sound being produced from my CD collection is nothing short of amazing. I guess what I am trying to say is before you venture too far down the vinyl path; maybe there are some other avenues worth pursuing.

[Taito]

Thanks, Spearmint. Your comments aren't interpreted as negative at all. I am here to gain the opinions and experience of others, and that is what is being provided.

Perhaps I should have been clearer about my situation. I am often amazed myself, at the sound produced when playing CD's.... But.... Having worked hard to 'complete' my system, upon 'completion', I found that the bug doesn't stop biting. No sooner am I enjoying what I consider to be fantastic sound, I find myself asking 'what next?'.

I guess I am looking to add more functionality to my system. The few times that I have heard vinyl, I've really enjoyed it. Having said that, I am not about to rush out and buy a shiny, new table, nor set on the idea - but if I were... . No, at the moment, I am reading what I can and evaluating my options. For me, this is thinking time. Doing time will come (if I decide it is worthwhile), but will probably wait 6 to 8 weeks.

Great point about considering other possibilities -that's precisely why I'm here :T .

Cheers, Ben

[Spearmint]

Taito

Have you read this thread?

I guess where I am coming from is the fact now I have also gone down the path of SACD/DVD-A, and I now have a couple of titles in vinyl, CD, and SACD, always looking for that something better, since getting the DAC1 the CD's sound way better than their vinyl or SACD cousins IMO.

Just to be fair I had a guy come over last weekend for a play we used a Diana Krall album, he has the DVD-A version, I have the SACD, and CD versions. We have done this test before and the SACD version won in both our opinions, since getting the DAC1 the CD version won hands down in both accuracy of detail, and having that airy 3D sound with the keys of the piano floating across the soundstage. Absolutely amazing stuff…

This weekend I am hoping to trial the Musical Fidelity X10-V3 as per this thread, to go with the DAC1.

Good luck and enjoy your venture, whatever you decide on will be great!, why because you are taking the time to enquire and test, before you buy.

[David Meek]

First off, my apologies in advance for the length of this post.

One thing I didn't really touch on in my earlier note was the "sound" of vinyl vs. CD. To restate the obvious, yes they are different. But, how? I'm not an EE, trained musician or the like - I'm a computer weenie and as such, my explanations won't go off into technicalities. Now, thousands of articles have been written about this subject so my descriptions won't be unique and probably will use phrases you've read many times. But, they'll be about what I hear and to me that's the crux of the matter, and what makes vinyl appealing.

Growing up with (and growing into) music played on vinyl, or listening to copies of albums from my dad's reel-to-reel, I didn't really have much of a standard to compare it to other than what I heard from the radio. Frankly, even then there was no contest - radio just didn't do it for me. It was good for identifying new music to purchase or listening to sports - that's about it. Eventually I purchased my first system and the inexpensive little turntable, stereo receiver and un-sophisticated speakers put out a much more pleasing sound than did the available AM/FM sources (tuner, car stereos, etc) I encountered. Those early experiences molded my thinking about vinyl and to some extent my listening expectations. Today, I have a decent system that I consider hi-fi (YMMV) other than the receiver, a Yamaha RX-V1 (it was their flagship at one point, but it's still a receiver). I consider the CD segment and the vinyl segment to be very similar in price/performance relative to each other and in their relation to the various levels of equipment available for both formats. The CD portion consists of a Yamaha CDR-S1000 transport and a Musical Fidelity A3.2CR external DAC connected by a silver digital coax, with SilverCats feeding the analog signal to the RX-V1. The vinyl portion is a Nottingham Analog Horizon turntable with a Rega RB250 arm and Grado Sonata Reference cartridge feeding a Musical Fidelity X-LPS phono stage via the OEM cables from the Rega, all connecting to the RX-V1 again with SilverCats. The RX-V1 has an internal phono-stage but the X-LPS puts out a better sound. Ditto the RX-V1's internal DACs in relation to the A3.2CR. All CDs and vinyl are meticulously maintained and handled very carefully. Vinyl is cleaned with a Nitty Gritty wet-vacuum system.

As I've "lost" - don't ask :roll: - a couple of hundred albums over the years I don't have a lot of overlap in source media, so direct A/B comparisons these days are limited to:
Dire Straits - Brothers In Arms
Eagles - Hotel California
Fleetwood Mac - Tusk
Head East - Flat As A Pancake
Jefferson Airplane - Red Octopus
Led Zeppelin - II and IV (Zoso)
Pat Metheny Group - The Falcon & The Snowman (soundtrack)
Ronnie Laws - Flame

From here on out, what I'll be saying is based on these A/B comparisons and many, many hours of listening to lots of music from both formats - both critically and for plain old enjoyment.

CDs generally can beat out vinyl in some areas. Soundstaging for one. I can close my eyes and "look" at where I hear the edge of the music. When I open my eyes, with a good disc I'll be looking at a point that seems to be outside the walls of my room. I dont' get that nearly as much with vinyl. Spatial relationships, too. Again with a good disc I'll be able to discern the locations of the various instruments/singers in width and depth with greater clarity than I will with vinyl. Detail is basically a toss-up depending on the pressing. Many CDs - especially newer ones - have amazing levels detail available, but vinyl can do the same. This is one area that A/B comparisons really show that vinyl isn't a dead end. You can hear individual notes, their beginning and end with equal facility from either format. Bass control is a mixed bag also, with both formats having their winners and losers. Tonality is one where CDs start to lose a little ground to vinyl. This is one of those areas where it's somewhat more subjective, but to me vinyl has just a little more of a touch of "real" to it. You ask, "Well what else? At this point it doesn't sound like vinyl does much to warrant all the fuss." And you'd be right on the money - at this point. To me and my ears where vinyl whacks CD about the head and shoulders is in a very subjective area of what has been called (and I like the term) "rightness". To me vinyl has a warmth to it lacking in CDs, and I don't mean an enhanced mid- or upper-mid range. It's a feeling of properness about how the music is put together. About how the sounds and textures of the music has a wholeness to it that is still lacking in CD playback. I can't describe it better than that, and I wish I could. Here's an example that may help. When I listen to CDs, I can listen critically to them at any time. It's easy to start examining the spatial structure or the notes or whatever. With vinyl I can't always do that. I'll catch myself completely through with the side of an album I was listening to and no "critical" listening was done. I was involved with the music on a level that precluded me examining it clinically. I hope that makes it clearer. I just "got into" the music more, and that is the thing that makes vinyl so enjoyable (and worth the cost) to me.

I know this is a very centrist description, but I hope it helps. Y'all be gentle.

[Spearmint]

Wow great post David... Thanks very much for putting your findings in writing; it has certainly put vinyl in a different light for me although at this stage I doubt I will be investing any more into that side, this is probably just what Taito needs to help him over the line.

[Cracking Oboe]

David,

I really enjoyed your lengthy and balanced post. I hadn't read a good CD vs. Vinyl A/B comparison in years. Great fun with great test equipment! (It makes my early 80's Thorens/Grado/Sansui set-up seem too weak to allow me to make any comments at all).

I definitely agree with your terms of "Rightness", and "Warmth" of a record's sound over redbook CD's. May I add "Smoothness" to your descriptors? I'm not sure if it's the right term to use, but I had always found early CD recordings and playback 'grainy' and 'inorganic' compared to vinyl. Great post David! (Although Taito... I still stand by my earlier comments and say, save your money for DVD-A or other future format we are sure to see in the next few years).

Cracking!

[Taito]

Thanks for the detailed post, David. Sorry I didn't get back to this thread for so long - have been busy with exams, which flowed into 8 shifts at work in 9 days (I can always sleep later ).

An update. A while ago, I bought a cheap and nasty second hand Yamaha automatic TT to get a taste.

Am I enjoying it? yes... but the dilemma is the offer my dealer made me on Saturday: A Project RPM 6 (ex-display, but never even had a cartridge fitted) for $875AU -retail here is $1200. Am I enjoying it enough to drop almost $900 plus a cartridge (probably a Garrott K2 or K3)? I don't know. With a K3, I could get the whole package set up for under $1200.

My reasoning is this: The more I spend, the more likely I am to be satisfied, but the greater the disappointment if I am not -kind of circular argument.

My dealer deals in Rega and Project, but they only currently have one turntable available for demo - the Debut II (project). There are a few other dealers I can try (about 5 in Adelaide), and I do know of one place which has a demo P3, but (although I have never bought from him) I decided that I wouldn't buy from him if avoidable - the kind of dealer who makes you feel stupid if you don't agree with him about what is best for you :M !

Music Hall and Nottingham Analog are out - do not appear to be represented in Aus.

To sum up, it is very difficult for me to listen to a good analog rig. I don't know what I'm missing as far as good reproduction on a vinyl rig, but that is the problem. What if I'm not missing as much as I think I am? But what if I am missing something that I shouldn't be missing? I don't like agonising over decisions, and the RPM is a very good deal - however, I am hesitant to spend that much cash on something that I haven't heard. More than hesitant.

Very confused, Ben