Vinyl more popular then SACD + DVD-A!

[Andrew Pratt]

According to John Atkinson (Stereophile March 2005 page 5)...

"the first six months of 2004, deliveries to US retailers of SACD and DVD-A combined were lower than those of supposedly obsolete vinyl LP's :E

Based on this information I should be designing turntables again and forgetting about hi-rez audio DVD players, there is absolutely no support from the buying public for either of these formats.

Although SACD claim 3000 titles, during Jan to June 2004 only 300,000 units shipped out so that's 100 units per title that were available!"

[ThomasW]

Based on this information I should be designing turntables again and forgetting about hi-rez audio DVD players

I guess it depends on how many times you want to buy the record. The absolute highest frequencies on a record are worn out after about 12 plays. And the sound quality decreases everytime it's played. For some people this evidently isn't important.

For me it's a reason to stick with the Hi-Rez formats. They'll be around for quite somtime regardless of the sales.

Although SACD claim 3000 titles, during Jan to June 2004 only 300,000 units shipped out so that's 100 units per title that were available!"

That's because they aren't pressing 'pop' (rap, country western, metal, etc) music as hybrid discs. If they did those numbers would skyrocket.

[Andrew Pratt]

I guess it makes you wonder why they aren't pressing pop titles then. I agree they wouldn't benefit from the higher resolution but its a dead format if no one's buying into it in its present state (other then a few audiophiles)

[aud19]

If they were smart they'd start selling all discs as hybrids with a cd compatible layer and stop producing "plain" cd's. It would atleast give them a sales tool to help fight the MP3 wave while boosting high-rez sales and production, hence lowering high-res software prices as well as hopefully hooking new customers to higher quality audio.

[Bam!]

Hi guys

I am one of those vinyl boys.

SACD hasn't plucked my strings yet, the almost vinyl thingy is painful when listening.

I just assisted a company called ATMA who just launched Barqoque in SACD. They explained their techniques and their reasoning why they are going towards SACD.

Also, the future of SACD leaves me perplexed. Why would I buy a player for a couple of G's and then....


Anyways just my 2 little pesos.

[ThomasW]

If they were smart they'd start selling all discs as hybrids with a cd compatible layer and stop producing "plain" cd's

I think that is the long term plan. It's just going to take time to replace the tooling.

MP3 will be the format of choice for 'kids' and people wanting portable music. Nothing can or will stop MP3 as a growth industry. But as the 'kids' get older, and if they still have any hearing left, they'll like Hi-Rez formats. Because they'll have more $$$$ to invest and their MP3 collection isn't going to sound very good on a high-end system.

[Andrew Pratt]

Thomas you're a lot more optomistic then myself assuming joe6pack cares enough about audio quality. From what i'm seeing everyone's happy with the quality of mass produced made for radio CD's and the fact they can be copied easily...getting the masses to move to high res without some other selling feature (ie cost) isn't going to dent the market IMO...at least not on its own. If they stop selling CD's then obviously things will have to change.

[ThomasW]

With all the emphasis on copy protection, standard Redbook CD's are doomed. The Hi-Rez formats with their copy protection will replace standard CD's, it's just a matter of time.

Also, the future of SACD leaves me perplexed. Why would I buy a player for a couple of G's and then....

For the same reason a person would spend a lot more than a 'couple of G's' on vinyl and the associated gear needed for it.

[Andrew Pratt]

I agree in principle Thomas...I just can't understand then why we're not seeing the media to support that idea. I would think that getting protected copies of the top 40 songs on the store shelves would make more sense from a copy protection issue then putting out copies of a Glen Miller's Big Band collection

[Bam!]

Ifrom a copy protection issue then putting out copies of a Glen Miller's Big Band collection

:lol:

[Bam!]

With all the emphasis on copy protection, standard Redbook CD's are doomed. The Hi-Rez formats with their copy protection will replace standard CD's, it's just a matter of time.

For the same reason a person would spend a lot more than a 'couple of G's' on vinyl and the associated gear needed for it.

The thing is also, vinyl has had 30 years to die and yet, it is still around. It's easy to get vinyl.

SACD, right now it's priceyish (a new word) and the sound in multi channel does impress me, but few are made really really well IMHO.

Then there is that HDDVD thingy and /or Bluray, Sound and Picture format...

I still feel "safe" with my vinyl and I love the sound that it does. I do completely understand your viewpoint though and I do agree. I just dunno what foot to stand on right now :lol:

[ThomasW]

I just can't understand then why we're not seeing the media to support that idea.

It's a simple matter of manufacturing capacity. There's aren't dozens and dozens of plants making hybrids or Hi-Rez. It's not cheap to convert all the CD plants over to Hybrid or Hi-Rez (these are of course DVD's). And there's probably more money to be made pressing movies compared to Hi-Rez audio.

The reason you see obsecure SACD's of Glenn Miller or old remastered classical recordings is that the companies know those will be bought by collectors. As where J6P 'pop' CD buyers basically don't care about Hi-Rez.

[Blazar]

Over time, as recording studio gear slowly improves in fidelity and analog to digital recording processes improve, native high resolution music will potentially play more of a role in creating more obvious audible differences for the public to hear.

The advent of low cost, high performance digital amplifiers may also help deliver lower cost:quality ratio to the masses. When everything except the speaker becomes dirt dirt cheap, the public will be ready for these formats.

When physical mediums dissapear in favor of wired and wirelessly received media files, playback codecs will also be updated on the fly which will allow for adoption of all the "latest formats" with relative ease.

Eventually you will have an internet and wireless ready box with terrabytes of space that operates completely silently that is able to hold your entire music collection, perform high quality D/A conversion, and output the sound via digital amplifers. Add speakers and you are on your way to great music for very little money.

[Brandon B]

Just came home from our local est Buy for the first time in about a year. Their SACD section has been decimated. About 50 disks. Not titles, disks. Anout 5% of what was in there last time I shopped, and plainly no one had stocked or organized it in months. Couldn't find ANY DVD-As.

BB

[Brandon B]

And now they're distributing software on vinyl.

BB

[George Bellefontaine]

I'm like Bam. I really love the sound of vinyl. I don't buy anything new on vinyl because my original collection is so large I have nowhere to store anything new. That's the good thing about cds. They don't take up much space. As for loss of sound quality, I'm only aware of a few lps ( really old fellows from the late fifties) that definitely show signs of wear in the sound department. But I'm sure, as Thomas stated, there is a loss of audio quality in most of what I own. I just can't hear it myself.

[basementjack]

Guys this really saddens me.

Can anyone offer me a good reason to buy a DVD-A/SACD player?

I love music, but am just now getting to the point where I'd have the money to buy a combo DVD-A/SACD player - and the format appears deader than dead - My local BB was in a similar state as Brandon's - they had hardly any DVD-A and not much SACD - it's obvous that they've abandoned the formats, and don't know what to do with them.

What really sucks, is that this is one area the record companies have botched up. Hi Quality audio is a niche market - and likely always will be.

Oh well, looks like round discs with music are on the way out. Kids will drive the next format, which looks to be the MP3.

The good news is, once everyone sets up infrastructures to deliver music via download, the cost of offering hi-resolution versions will be low enough that manufacturer might do it to generate revenue. (which is the only reason they do anything...)

[denverdoc]

Ditto for the BB here as well--maybe 50 SACD titles and 1/2 that in DVD-A.

As any of us oldtimers could have predicted for the industry mullahs who make these calls for the big bucks, there is no way a hi-rez product that is not fully back compatible will make a serious market dent w/o more in the way of enticement.

Were it not for the DVD's "digital" claim to fame, and all the extras including never needing to rewind it that came with it, even DVD might still be languishing. Certainly had not the consumer targets been softened by acceptance of the CD, DVD would be dead in the water. Laser disc for all its glory and analog sound, was a bit player in the bigger scheme of things even though Video SNR and 16:9 releases were a huge attraction, and the only game in town (yes i am forgetting the old RCA capacitance system--shouldn't we all?!)

My point is I think SACD and DVD-A can survive much like the laser discs of yesteryear did for over a decade as a niche product--provided we all keep voting with our feet and wallets. So forget the BB, find your friendly internet supplier that offers good service and reasonable pricing, and buy! So long as that happens, the boutique labels will at least be pressing these formats. Having a transparent hybrid RB CD layer will help the cause immensely--I recently bought a couple of SACD's for near CD prices with the hybrid layer.

Hopefully until the future brings us HD video, along with HD audio in multichannel as part of the package... (For a brief moment post Rocky Mountain Audio Fest, considered setting up the VPI TT again, but just couldn't bring myself to go through with it--even 1500 would be entry level just for add-ons as in a good cartridge, MC/MM preamp, and record cleaner, but some of us enjoy the ritual of record cleaning and having to get up every 20min while listening thru trax we can't abide :lol: .)
John

[David Meek]

Our local BB has a large selection of DVD-A and SACD. Two full racks for each, no less. Could this possibly be a store-by-store issue? I certainly hope it is.

[ThomasW]

Can anyone offer me a good reason to buy a DVD-A/SACD player?

Yes it's called exceptional sound quality.

BB or CC dropping SACD or DVD-A is like lamenting the fact that they don't sell vinyl. All these stores do is cater to the lowest common denominator (Joe 6 pack) .

The actual 'best buys' in Hi-Rez media have always been available online.

The best way to avoid a change in formats is to buy hybrid discs. That way in the very unlikely event that SACD dies, you'll be able to play the Redbook layer

[Chuck G]

I guess it depends on how many times you want to buy the record. The absolute highest frequencies on a record are worn out after about 12 plays. And the sound quality decreases everytime it's played. For some people this evidently isn't important.

For me it's a reason to stick with the Hi-Rez formats. They'll be around for quite somtime regardless of the sales.

That's because they aren't pressing 'pop' (rap, country western, metal, etc) music as hybrid discs. If they did those numbers would skyrocket.

Wow Thomas, what a load of horsecrap. Sound quality decreases everytime you play it?????????? I assure you, dogs couldn't hear any decrease in sound quality as long as you take reasonable care and use good gear (decent table, cartridge and preferably a record cleaning machine). :P

[ThomasW]

As a stylus passes over the record surface, the record grooves are subjected to a force in excess of 14 tons per square inch. This pressure results in the vinyl being heated to temperatures as high as 300 degrees Fahrenheit. Note that this momentarily melts the vinyl as the stylus passes by........

If one plays a record 2 times is succession (meaning no 'resting' time between plays), the walls of the groove are permanently changed by the effects of the heat/pressure.

[Glen B]

As a stylus passes over the record surface, the record grooves are subjected to a force in excess of 14 tons per square inch. This pressure results in the vinyl being heated to temperatures as high as 300 degrees Fahrenheit. Note that this momentarily melts the vinyl as the stylus passes by........

If one plays a record 2 times is succession (meaning no 'resting' time between plays), the walls of the groove are permanently changed by the effects of the heat/pressure.

Indeed. I have been aware of this for years. That is why Stanton Magnetics first developed the Stereohedron Stylus which first appeared in their 881S cartridge to help minimize stylus wear on the record grooves from repeated playing. Other cartridge manufacturers followed suit with their own versions of the stylus shape under different names. I used first an 881S, then 881S-MKII in my turntables for many years. That said, in MY experience, I am not convinced of the audibility of the degradation -- maybe its just that my records have been exceptionally well taken care of over the years. I have LPs purchased during my high school days (35+ years ago) that sound just about as good now as they did when new. On the other hand, they get played only once every few years so that any groove wear would be negligible.

[Chuck G]

I've not seen any melted vinyl unless I left the record in the sun. Any temperature increase would last nano seconds at most. Even playing a record repeatedly will not heat the record up to the point of any damage. By the time you get to playing a record again (even if you just played that same record), it would have cooled very quickly and you are not likely to cause any damage (in my experience). Most of this is nothing but urban legend. I am not suggesting repeatedly playing the same record is a good thing though but if it is a full length LP, you should not have any problems. Playing a certain section repeatedly may cause some damage but even then, if you have cleaned the stylus (preferably after each play) and have a clean record, any damage would be very minimul.

[Brandon B]

I've not seen any melted vinyl unless I left the record in the sun.

Nor would you without some pretty amazing eyes. Thomas is talking about activity at the near microscopic level. He is not blowing smoke, it is really just common sense. Friction generates heat, the needle is rubbing the sides of the groove, and even a smooth diamond generates some friction, ergo there is heat.

All that said though, there is a solution.

BB

[Nick M]

I hate to use stereotypes, but the majority of consumers are quite happy with redbooks, copies, and extremely low bit-rate MP3s. Stereo quality to most people is judged by how loud it can play, and the amount of bass it can hurl. I think the majority of people who listen to pop/rap/acid (ie. teens) don't have the cash for DVD-A/SACD equipment, so record companies market artists that better fit older generations who tend to have a larger percentage of individuals with budgets large enough to make large A/V purchases (that was a terrible run-on).

My two lira.

[Chuck G]

I know he is talking about microscopic level but I also stated it lasts (the heat) nano seconds at most. A laser turntable is not what true vinly hounds would use. Sure, you have no contact but you have many other compromises and even decent ones are like buying a new car.

I've been playing LP's for over 35 years and I still have many that I've played dozens of times that are still in excellent shape. You take care of them they take care of you.

Nicholas, I agree with you for the most part. The people that are buying SACD/DVD-A (knowingly anyway) are not your average run of the mill Best Buy customer. The best chance for these to survive are the hybrid discs (SACD), there just hasn't been enough titles for this to do better. A nitch market at best. These custormers are the ones with serious setups (I'd say less than 5% of folks with Home theater setups have these serious setups) and are technical savy. Those little demo's at Circuit City sure won't sway that many to invest in the new formats.

[Brandon B]

How are you conlcuding nano-seconds for this? That is an incredibly short time frame, and I don't think PVC is nearly an efficient enough conductor to be dissipating heat that fast. They use it as an insulator after all.

I would guess (if we are guessing here) it is much closer to thousandths of a second or maybe ten-thousandths. And while I fully agree with you that it is probably not an audible degradation in a few or even maybe dozens of playings, it is going to wear the record audibly in a lifetime of use, which is Thomas' point in support of the highrez formats.

Other than the absurd price, what do you consider the compromise of a laser turntable? It has perfect tracking, superior channel separation, allows pseudo random access like a CD, causes no wear, etc. What's the downside?

BB

[ThomasW]

When JonMarsh and I owned the Boulder Sound Gallery (high-end audio store) we routinely bought multiple copies of any record to be used for demo purposes. Since they simply wore out over time. It was interesting to A/B the record being thrown out, with it's replacement. Typically the used record sounded pretty good until you compared it to the brand new one, then the effects of wear were quite apparent.

I should add that during this time we were using state-of-the-art vinyl playback systems. The cost of the turntable/tone arm/cartridge/phono-preamp combinations were multiple thousands of dollars. So I doubt that the playback equipment itself was having a significant detrimental effect on the records.

The mechanics of the destruction of a record are as follows. Unless one happens to live in a scientific 'clean room' there are always microscopic particles of dust in the grooves. (Note these are there regardless of the cleaning technique or machine used) As the stylus passes over these particles, the heating of the vinyl permanently fuses them into the surface. This process occurs every time the record is played. The slow but inevitable destruction of both the record and the diamond stylus is a function of this process.

And BTW, I didn't fabricate the info about the high frequencies being decreased after the first 12 plays. That data came from a scientific study.

[Chuck G]

What is the downside Brandon? Other than the crazy price (like I said new car price).

Laser pickups on these types of turntables are very finiky. These tables really have trouble playing vinyl properly (without dropouts) and you MUST clean the LP everytime because it has trouble with any kind of dust. Hey, I can do that with my setup and save the $15000 to get an average sounding table. So you can spend 10k to 15k and get the sound involvment of an average cd player/traditional turntable at best. Just get a CD player and save the bucks.

And Brandon, while the PVC material of the record doesn't dissipate heat that well, the diamond stylus, which is where most of the heat is generated, is excellent at dissapating heat.

http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=vinyl&n=52332&highlight=heat+generated+by+stylus&r=&session=

Ok, so I should have said micro seconds instead of nano seconds, big deal. That is being as nit picky as you can get.

I've seen those records in high end audio stores! :E No wonder you got multiple copies. That isn't the best example IMO. Typically there are a few dozen LP's that DO get played to death and handled by many grubby hands (customers and employees). That is a recipe for disaster.

I clean my records with a decent record cleaning vac and put the record in the good sleaves that SHOULD keep dust/dirt to a minimum. There will always be dust floating about but a dust cover keeps that to a minimum as well.

I did take exception to Thomas's initial post about vinyl degrading. I will stand by my 35 years of experience. If you have cleaned the LP and have PROPERLY setup tables (that includes stylus that is not worn, that causes most of the damage along with not cleaning the stylus often) you will enjoy an LP for many years IMO.

How long will it take for SACD and or DVD-Audio (both of which I have and enjoy with the limited titles I like) to come out with all the titles easily available for a few bucks for the LP? (the answer is never)

I just think you do a disservice to the possibilities of vinyl. What do you think these new formats were trying to do? (mimic the analog sound of vinyl is the answer)

Why can you still buy new LP's and turntables if all of these records sound so bad after 12 plays (post the scientific link, i'd love to read that)?

Sure there is some mantainence involved with vinyl but my best vinyl can sound as good as my best SACD.

[ThomasW]

I've seen those records in high end audio stores! No wonder you got multiple copies. That isn't the best example IMO.

What you 'see' is the public vinyl for mid-fi customers. Every one keeps a personal stash of vinyl they use for special customers. Those are in pristine condition and the deterioration of those is what I was referencing.

I did take exception to Thomas's initial post about vinyl degrading. I will stand by my 35 years of experience.

You youngsters are funny...... :wink:

Why can you still buy new LP's and turntables if all of these records sound so bad after 12 plays

I don't play vinyl at all. I keep a high-end phono rig in storage. I haul it out every now and then to archive (rip) a classic LP from someone's collection. When I hear the sound quality compared to digital, I return the gear to storage.

IM(not so)HO if the playback system has adequate resolution, the difference between vinyl and Hi-Rez is as different as night and day. Vinyl is so inherently 'noisey', it's become unlistenable in my world.

[Chuck G]

Ok Thomas, you just must be special.

Just send me the "high-end phono rig" and I will gladly rip a classic LP (not available in digital) when you need one. Since you don't enjoy the format, why keep it around wasting all that space? Maybe you had a chiped stylus all those years if your vinyl is so noisy. LP's have there place (at my house) and many will kill the CD (especially those using noise reduction). SACD/DVD-A sounds great, the product selection does blow though. If I have a choice of listening to a noise reduced CD or LP, I will choose the LP every time. Sure, there is no noise on the CD, but they removed the high frequencies along with the tape hiss. Now if I could replace ALL of my favorite LP's with an hybrid SACD, then we would be getting somewhere. Until that time vinyl is viable for many.

That is one impressive looking speaker but I have a little bit better system than mid-fi myself. Nothing crazy though as your speakers probably cost more than my system. But I get just as much joy never the less.

My 35 years was just listening to records. I am almost over the hill at 48.

[JonMarsh]

I just think you do a disservice to the possibilities of vinyl. What do you think these new formats were trying to do? (mimic the analog sound of vinyl is the answer)

No, Chuck, I don't know where you got that idea. Mimicing the sound of vinyl is not REMOTELY what they were trying to do.

In the case of SACD or rather, as the actual modulation format is called, DSD, the original purpose of the modulation scheme development was to produce an archival medium to preserve the sound of high speed, wide track professional recording tape- which is a whole different matter from vinyl.

Now, I've owned some expensive viny gear in my time, especially in the late 70's. And I used to have quite a collection of Sheifeild direct to disk vinyl recordings - certainly among the finest ones made in those days. But I never heard an LP recording that compared to what my 15 IPS half track Otari would do when recording the Boulder Philharmonic with my "cheap" AGK C451 condensor microhpones with custom builit preamps and internal electronics.

God only knows what such an analog tape machine would cost these days, the Otari MX5050B MkIII is apparently still in production, don't have any idea what it costs or if Otari sells them actively in the US...

[Chuck G]

I know about the DSD being used for archival purposes. But what they ended up with, sound wise, has been compared to sounding vinyl like. The digital harshness has mostly been removed. That harshness has been hanging around since the invention of CD. Things have gotten better over time though.

I am not sure any format would compare favorably to 15 IPS half track tapes. The DSD masters are suppose to be close (identical?). I am not sure that all transfers to the actual SACD we get though.

[Brandon B]

And Brandon, while the PVC material of the record doesn't dissipate heat that well, the diamond stylus, which is where most of the heat is generated, is excellent at dissapating heat.

Except the diamond is not what is damaged by the heat, it is the vinyl track which is no longer in contact with the stylus.

And if you think differing by a factor of 1 million is being nitpicky (since you have a smiley there, I am not sure how strongly you meant that), then it's sort of moot trying to discuss it in a scientific manner.

The disadvantages of the laser TT I will defer to you on, as I have no real knowledge of them other than reading a few articles about them.

BB

[Chuck G]

Last post on this vinyl subject for me. Clean your stylus after each play, play clean records, and any "damage" will be minimal. Don't follow these simple rules will corrupt vinyl quickly. If you don't like the inconvienence of following these simple rules, stick to the 5 inch disks. If you don't mind a little mantainence, there are many treasures on LP to be found for cheap that will never see a 5 inch disk.

[George Bellefontaine]

I agree with Chuck. Keep your stylus and records clean and they will keep you happy for many years. Heck, I have LPs that go way back and they still sound great to me. I wouldn't sell my LP collection for all the tea in China.

[Jack Keck]

If you don't mind a little mantainence, there are many treasures on LP to be found for cheap that will never see a 5 inch disk.

At least not until you burn them to CD-R :B

[Bam!]

I agree with Chuck. Keep your stylus and records clean and they will keep you happy for many years. Heck, I have LPs that go way back and they still sound great to me. I wouldn't sell my LP collection for all the tea in China.

That's pretty much it for me too.

:

[Lex]

I had a pretty good turntable in my "days", in fact I had a few. I always tired of the snap, crackle, pop, not in my cereal bowl. Definitely not good for tweeters either at higher levels. Then there was record wharp, some came wharped from the factory. Stylus damage. Geesh, it got old and expensive. It really made me tire of vinyl. Typically in those days, I'd take an LP and burn a cassette right off, and pretty well forgot my LPs.

Vinyl paved the way for our music today. It has a place. But it's not going to be in most people's daily listening. Try taking an LP to your car and poping it in your LP player. CDs are just convenient, easy to take from one location to the next, and capable of very good sound with the right gear and the right studio.


It's nostalgic, and even for some records, the old popping just seems to fit. But I still like my 1959 Miles Davis Kind of Blue on CD. I have no problem with that. Also, I'd like to remind you vinylsters, we are happy that you enjoy it, and will respect that fact. But remember, this site's foundation is digital and will remain so. We are first and formost a home theater board, and digital is just our thing. So, tread softly in our digital domain too please.

People like'd laserdiscs for some of the same reasons as vinyl. but today, most of those old laser affectionados are being converted to DVD. You used to see collections for sale all the time, the converts.

Lex