'Brightness' from aluminum dome tweeters

[kjt]

Hi all. This is a fantastic forum for audio discussions. I originally posted this question on Club Rotel but thought I may get a better response here. I recently purchased a Rotel integrated receiver (RSX 1065, 100W x 5) and B&W 602s3 bookshelf speakers. After approximately 150 hours of break in, the tweeters are still not very easy on my ears (fatiguing) and are somewhat bright. As a matter of fact, even listening at moderate levels causes my ears to ring afterwords. I just don't think the Rotel/B&W combo is for me. :cry:

I know there are other styles of tweeters out there such as silk/soft dome, ring radiator tweeters, inverted dome tweeters, etc., etc., that could potentially reduce some of the brightness but I don't want to loose any clarity.

What do you folks think about the above mentioned tweeters? Does anyone have a recommendation for a non-aluminum tweeter bookshelf speaker in the $500 -$1000 US range to potentially reduce my search? I have heard great things about JM labs inverted tweeters.

Thanks!
Kevin

[NMG]

I can't comment on the B&W's, but my Paradigm Studio 80's also have aluminum tweeters and I find them very nice to listen to with my Rotel gear.

I've heard many people suggest that metal tweeters will sound bright, but as a general rule, I'm not sure of this is fair or not. I suspect allot has to do with the specific tweeter design and whatnot. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I wouldn't rule out a particular speaker just because it has metal tweeters. Just get out there and listen to as many speakers as you can until you find something that suits your taste.

Good luck!

[aarsoe]

I am not sure that I can recognise your description of B&W speakers. Bright - maybe, but ears ringing after listening???
(Your moderate levels, may be higher than you think!)

Have you tried switching some of your cables, and see if you may have an un-lucky match. If not, I would recommend you to try that first, before seeking new speakers.

Also, try some dampening of your room, it could be accustical problems. Try to klap your hands and listen for an eccho, or if the sound is very hard. If so, try carpets, or even a duvé placed on the floor to see if that helps..

[Bam!]

Hi there Kjt!

You raise a good point and your question has the beginning of a long answer!

What manufacturers try to do in low price points is give you that feel for clarity...for details.....but it comes at a price.....That being said...what we think of as clear in the beginning becomes bright and aggressive.....with a rough edge...


This being said...many things give that feel...that sound....like redbook players below a certain price range IMO sound digital...rough...fake..lack of detail....doesn't help...

Every piece in your system will affect "this" sound you talk about....

I won't tell you buy brand X and you are home free...

This being said.....

It becomes very subjective what to propose as far as not being bright....This is how you become an audio fiend....constantly upgrading in quest for that "nirvana"

I say all this cause your question is where I was at when I started....and now all I do is search for that Nirvana sound.....

So what to do....try and listen to many "types" of speakers.....systems....don't rush into the next best thing....if you can't listen....look at the used market...read reviews (while they are not often unbiased) they still provide a good idea of how they sounded if you read between the lines....


Just my 2 cents!

[whmacs]

Hi Kevin,
Are all sources sounding bright on your system our just your CD player? What type of CD player do you have? I would go to your local dealer and see if you could home demo a couple of different sources just to eliminate the source as the problem and not the speakers. For example, some people consider the Rotel RCD-1072 a 'bright' sounding CD while the NAD C542 has a warmer sound to it. From your description of the problem I would try looking for a 'warm' sounding source. A warm source and bright speakers are usually a good combination, because you get the detail, but not the top end sting.

cheers,
Stephen

[kjt]

Thanks all for your responses! I guess what I am looking for is a more laid back sound from the speakers. I was in at a B&W dealer over the holiday weekend and explained my situation. He said he could count on one hand the number of customers who complained that B&W's were too bright but also said that is why there is a niche market for soft dome type tweeters. For a super laid back speaker he recommended Vandersteens. I happen to have a dealer not too far away and will try to audition them this weekend.

The quest continues....

Thanks again for your feedback! :T

[David Meek]

Kevin, don't let the salesperson steer you wrong. Soft dome tweeters aren't a "niche" market. Yes, metal dome tweeters are the dominant type, but tweeters using other materials aren't relegated to a few esoteric brands. Some other well respected speaker manufacturers using soft domes include:

Acarian
Athena
Joseph Audio
Mission
Polk
Rockport
Soliloquy
Sonus Faber
Vienna Acoustics

Silk domes can sound awesome - ie. very detailed, low coloration, not harsh. Go out and listen to as many different speakers as you can and then decide. Don't go by a salespersons' pitch.

[ThomasW]

As a matter of fact, even listening at moderate levels causes my ears to ring afterwords.

That's not the tweeters.

That clinical symptom (tinnitus) means what you call "moderate levels", is actually an SPL high enough to cause a threshold shift in your ear drums = permanent hearing damage ANYTIME your ears 'ring' after a listening session.

Turn it down!

PS: For those that don't know a "threshold shift" means that on a cellular level, the structure of the cells in the tympanic membrane have changed their shape. One shifted they NEVER return to their original shape. The results of each shift are cummulative, and over time cause permanent tinnitus (note that some people have committed suicide because they were driven 'mad' by the ringing). There is NO medical treatment for tinnitus.

[Steve Goff]

I agree that one should be VERY careful with playing your speakers too loud. It is also a good idea to wear earplugs at loud concerts and ear protection while using loud tools or when arround heavy machinery.

Although you say there is no medical treatment for tinnitus, the followers of Pawel Jastreboff's 'neuro-physiological model' theories would disagree, suggesting that Tinnitus Retraining Therapy works for both tinnitus and hyperacusis. I believe a member of this forum said he had good results with TRT. I don't know what to think on the subject, though I might finally submit myself to TRT for my years-long struggle with hyperacusis. I'd didn't do anything foolish to bring this on, but agree whole-heartedly that anything one might do to avoid such problems should be done.

[ThomasW]

TRT is a palliative form of therapy. It can, if successful, provide some relief for the symptoms, but not the tinnitus itself. TRT is basically training one's brain to ignore the effects of the tinnitus. IMO that's not a 'medical' treatment for tinnitus, it's a 'psychological' treatment for the symptoms of tinnitus.

Having worked for a few decades in a level one trauma center I tend to differentiate between these things :wink:

FWIW, taking the nutritional supplement Ginko Biloba also helps some people.

[Shane Martin]

For me every metal tweeter based speaker I've heard are bright. There might be some exceptions out there but not that I've found yet. I will say that B&W's were never bright to me but they were overly agressive in the top end.

Speakers are indeed a "to each their own" situation.

JMLab's are a different speaker. You should atleast listen to them. I felt they were really sterile sounding. This was hooked up to NAD gear which I've never felt was that.

Some other well respected speaker manufacturers using soft domes include:

Phase Tech also uses soft dome tweeters. Their founder invented the soft dome. The PC series has a 3.1 bookshelf that is outstanding.

http://www.phasetech.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?cat=innovative_products&subcat=1&child=6

[David Meek]

Shane, just for grins - if you ever get the chance listen to some Aerial Acoustics speakers like the 7B and see if you find them bright. I have a set of the 7Bs and they are the least-bright metal dome speaker I've come across. FYI, they are a titanium dome tweeter.

[Shane Martin]

I have heard Aerials before. I heard the model 6s and 7b's but this was several years ago. They were also on BAT tube gear. I could still hear a bit of sibilance but it wasn't as fatiguing as some speakers I've heard. Overall a very MEH experience. I would say yes they were the least bright but still not pleasing to me as I remember. Then again it's been a while and you forget things over time.

[Steve Goff]

TRT is a palliative form of therapy. It can, if successful, provide some relief for the symptoms, but not the tinnitus itself. TRT is basically training one's brain to ignore the effects of the tinnitus. IMO that's not a 'medical' treatment for tinnitus, it's a 'psychological' treatment for the symptoms of tinnitus.

Having worked for a few decades in a level one trauma center I tend to differentiate between these things :wink:

FWIW, taking the nutritional supplement Ginko Biloba also helps some people.

That is, at least, if one believes that the underlying cause is damage to the cochlea or some mechanism like recruitment, as opposed to a neurophysiological response centered in the neuronal network, the hearing areas of the brain, and the limbic and autonomic nervous systems. My long time ear doctor said I suffer from recruitment, but his successor disagrees, since I have no resultant high frequency hearing loss. In any event, this is beside the point of this thread, and I'll stop now. Sorry for going this far afield.