It's time for a Statement announcing my latest project..

[Hdale85]

So only 500-550 for a pair? Or per speaker? I think i calculated the drivers alone to be about 350 or so for a pair. So that leaves about 200 for crossover parts.

Edit: Ok no the drivers are about 450.48 before shipping so that leaves about 100 bucks for crossover parts. Are the crossovers that simple for these? If they are only 550 bucks in parts for a pair then thats not bad at all. Although still not sure I have room. Was thinking of something like the RS150/180 and the Fountek tweet. Not sure if I could design the crossover for these though. May have to take a stab at it. Or maybe even the RS180/Tangband mid/Fountek ribbon. A smaller 3 way probably without the open back. Don't think open back would make much since for surrounds. See I use my setup for music and movies. Probably about 70/30 music/movies.

[Jim Holtz]

So only 500-550 for a pair? Or per speaker? I think i calculated the drivers alone to be about 350 or so for a pair. So that leaves about 200 for crossover parts.

Hi Dougie,

That was an estimate for the pair. The Mini Statements are really just Statements with one less W4-1337SA and less expensive woofers. I just recalculated and came in a little closer to $600 for drivers and crossover components. Again, that is just an estimate. When Curt gets done with the crossover, the final numbers will be available.

The crossovers are based on Jantzen caps and Mills resistors so a few bucks could be trimmed using Dayton caps and resistors. Differences in sound quality? I think you'd have to A/B them to hear the difference if there is any. My guess is, some would hear differences and some wouldn't.

HTH

Jim

[Hdale85]

What woofers are they using? The RS180's? I assumed they still used the 225's.

[Jim Holtz]

Dogie,

Yes, the Mini's are using RS180's to get the cabinet size down and still have good bass. I come up with about $405 roughly for drivers.

Jim

[Hdale85]

Yeah thats about what I come up with. I would guess they still get into the high 20hz range.

[KorbenDallas]

If you can stand a 28" tall "monitor" size cabinet, the mini's would work great stand (not book shelf) mounted.

Thanks for the recommendations! My thinking was the lower end speakers have more of a "signature" since their dB throughout their response varies so much. With higher end speakers, they have much more of a flat response so using different drivers and radically different crossover designs wouldn't be as much of an issue. Dome midranges are something I haven't heard yet, but it's exciting once it's described as more of a "bubble" effect since it seems better suited for surround duty because of the dispertion.

My concern with the mini's would be the placement of them as surrounds. With a surround speaker, normally they are placed on or close to a wall. Since the mini's will feature the open backed mid, wouldn't they need to be offset from the wall? Or would it be beneficial to have them close to the wall for surrounds to create a diffusion effect similar to the dipole-bipole surrounds that don't fire directly at the listener?

[Jim Holtz]

The Mini's were really designed to be a smaller version of the Statements for use as mains. They can definitely be used as surrounds but won't work for everyone depending on their room. I'd suggest that the pass through on the back of the speaker not be closer than one foot from the wall. If that won't work, other speakers would probably be a better choice.

Jim

[Jim Holtz]

Yeah thats about what I come up with. I would guess they still get into the high 20hz range.

Figure very good bass to 40 and decent to the lower 30's but 20's is really stretching it.

Jim

[Hdale85]

Hmm still better then the Klipsch speakers I have now. I get down to about 40 and below that is inaudiable.

[Hdale85]

Jim how much would the crossover have to modified to drop one of the woofers and just do a TMW? Would it be a complete rework or something not to difficult to modify? Was thinking that if this was possible might fit in a PE 1 Cu ft MTM enclosure. But I'm doubting that the crossover is going to be and easy fix.

Also if you cover the mid chamber would this affect the crossover? Is there anything in the crossover that is designed for the way the open back mid is?

[Jim Holtz]

Jim how much would the crossover have to modified to drop one of the woofers and just do a TMW? Would it be a complete rework or something not to difficult to modify? Was thinking that if this was possible might fit in a PE 1 Cu ft MTM enclosure. But I'm doubting that the crossover is going to be and easy fix.

Also if you cover the mid chamber would this affect the crossover? Is there anything in the crossover that is designed for the way the open back mid is?

Dougie,

The crossover hasn't been designed yet but you are really talking about two completely different speakers that really go beyond the purpose the Mini Statements were conceived to fill.

Curt and I have both played with stuffing the transmission line which essentially creates a closed box and the Statements sounded fine but it lost the expansive sound stage. You can stuff to taste so to speak. I do not anticipate a closed box version with one RS180 being created.

Sorry...

Jim

[Hdale85]

Yeah I was just thinking out loud. Probably just have to go with something like the Modula MT's for surround purpose I guess.

[Sefferdog]

First, let me say this. If you are on the fence with this design run, don't walk, to wherever you need to go to get the parts to construct this. It is an absolutely amazing design. While it is in a fair sized cabinet, it sounds 3X larger than it actually is. I am uploading a pic wth the NatP in a 60l cab on the left, the Statement on the right for comparison. I finished it a couple of hours ago, less the base and finish, and had to force myself to leave for a bit. :T :T :T

The Statements are replacing the Nat Ps as my fronts and while the Nat Ps are awsome, the Statements take it to the next level.

I have thrown Chris Rea, Bugs Henderson, David Bowie, Metallica, Kenny Chesney, Hank Jr., Charlie Daniels, Pink Floyd, Omar and the Howlers, Keb Mo, just to name a few and the Statements handle all brands and flavors with a surprising ease. 8O

I am hooked up through an Emotiva LPA-1 amp (thanks for the suggestion Jim, great amp for cheap!) and mostly playing flac encoded music from my HTPC, kernel streaming to a Denon 3803 as my preamp.

There have been three or four reviews by various people and I have nothing to say that hasn't been said, just affirmation. The bass is deep and tight, very nice. This is the first design I have built with a ribbon tweeter and I really like the highs. Then there are the mids, WOW. The mids are where these babies really shine. Very open and airy. I have never heard anything like it. The open backs seem to expand the sound stage well beyond the speakers. There were a couple of times I was checking the amp to make sure I wasn't in five channel because the sound seems to wrap around the room. I emailed Jim and the best I could describe it was mesmerizing, almost hypnotizing they are so clear and concise. :lol:

I would like to thank Jim Holtz for his patience with me during this build. I emailed him five or six times a day, or more. He answered promptly, with encouragement and tips, along with a very friendly attitude. Also to Curt C. This is an awsome crossover in here. He is truly gifted in the way he designs and voices speakers. I have built several of his designs and all of them were great. ;x( ;x(

Brian and Chuck, the weekend following this one works better for me if you guys would like to come over and give them a listen. If you are already committed to come this Sat. let me know and I can probably shuffle some plans.

Here are a few more pics. Please notice my clamp holder. The only problem with that is every other Saturday I have to move the clamps so I can go racing!

[Jim Holtz]

Hi Sefferdog,

No thanks necessary. I'm just really pleased that you're enjoying the Statements as much as I do. Also, thanks for posting all of the pictures including the crossover assembly. I failed to take many pictures along the way which I regret now.

Enjoy the music!

Jim

[---k---]

Nice clamp holder!
Off topic, I find it very surprising how so many people have the Speakers AND Racing hobbies. CJD did autocross, JonW does some racing, this guy I auditions some speakers with a couple of weeks ago used to race, now you. I watch a lot of racing, and think about trying an autocross or two, but never gotten around to it. It is just very interesting.

[Brian Bunge]

Wade,

Next Saturday (assuming I don't have to go to a swim meet) probably is better for me as well.

[KorbenDallas]

Curt and I talked about a deeper midrange transmission line and the cabinet can be much deeper with out affecting the sound. The proportions of the Statements look very good to my eyes. I don't like the look of real deep cabinets.

How much more shallow can the cabinets be made without affecting the transmission line? Can the mini's be made more shallow as well?

[cjd]

Much more shallow and I'd start worrying about stability!

Also, you have to get the box volume *somewhere*

C

[KorbenDallas]

Much more shallow and I'd start worrying about stability!

Also, you have to get the box volume *somewhere*

C

Good point! I think the mini's might be ok to make them a little more shallow and taller; if of course it doesn't affect the mids?

[Jim Holtz]

Good point! I think the mini's might be ok to make them a little more shallow and taller; if of course it doesn't affect the mids?

I don't think a little would make any difference as long as the change isn't too radical. Curt could answer that question definitively if you wanted to email him. He's the brains of the team. :T

Jim

[Sefferdog]

The Mini's were really designed to be a smaller version of the Statements for use as mains. They can definitely be used as surrounds but won't work for everyone depending on their room. I'd suggest that the pass through on the back of the speaker not be closer than one foot from the wall. If that won't work, other speakers would probably be a better choice.

Jim

Jim, I have my Statements roughly 13" from the wall. I know my wife will allow no farther out! One caveat to that, she is in Ohio visiting her mother so tomorrow I will pull them a couple of feet out and see what I think.
Wade

[Hdale85]

13" from the rear of the speakers? Or 13" from the front baffle?

[Sefferdog]

13" from the rear of the speakers? Or 13" from the front baffle?

From the rear. :E

[Hdale85]

Well the way you measure is from the front baffle. Thats how BSC is measured. So your probably closer to 2 feet from the wall. (At least this is what I've come to believe is true.)

[Sefferdog]

Well the way you measure is from the front baffle. Thats how BSC is measured. So your probably closer to 2 feet from the wall. (At least this is what I've come to believe is true.)

Then I am well over 2 feet as the speaker is 16.75" deep. That would put me at roughly 2.5'.

[Hdale85]

Well I would say your pretty good with the distance your at.

[Sefferdog]

Originally Posted by cjd
When you say 1.5-2' from the wall, is that the baffle, or the back of the speaker?

Hi Chris,
That is from the back of the speaker, The cabinets are 16" in depth, front to back. The openings behind the mids are lined with 1" of foam. Curt said the soundstage could be varied easily by playing with a little stuffing and/or room treatment.

More fun!

Jim

Dougie, here is an earlier post from Jim, he was measuring from the back of the speaker. I thought I remembered that post.

[Hdale85]

Ok well then I stand corrected. It's probably different with these because they are open backed.

[ahaik]

Well the way you measure is from the front baffle. Thats how BSC is measured. So your probably closer to 2 feet from the wall. (At least this is what I've come to believe is true.)

In this case you are to be concerned about the open mids more then bSC.

[Hdale85]

Yeah thats what I figured and if I would have put a little more thought into it would have come to that conclusion. But I'm a tad bit tired and not thinking fully.

[Sefferdog]

Ok well then I stand corrected. It's probably different with these because they are open backed.

Yes, that is what I was thinking.

[Sefferdog]

Brian, KorbenDallas, digitalman, et al...

Just checking to see if you gentlemen are still up for the trek to Ocala next Saturday, the 21st? If there is anyone else that will be in Central Florida on this date and would like to stop by and give a listen to Jim's Statements, please contact me. I assure you, you will be glad you did.

I found out last night that they have added an extra race next weekend due to some scheduling conflict. This should not present a problem as I usually don't leave to go racing until around 3:30 - 4:00. If it is a problem, it is not a big deal for me to skip the race, it is just for fun, no points or anything like that.

I was hoping to get together some time before lunch and listen until we decided it was time for a break. I thought we could take a break for lunch and mull over our thoughts (I will be smoking a pork butt this week, if that works for everyone). Then after lunch we can listen some more, or take the go-cart out and terrorize the neighborhood, your call. :T

Brian, you will be required to post your thoughts on the board as I have had four or five people asking me to make sure to get your comparison between your 3-way and Jim's Statements. :P

Anyway, get your flavor of music ready and c'mon on over. Let me know if this will work for everyone. If it doesn't we can figure out an alternate plan. I am very flexible. :T

[Brian Bunge]

Wade,

Next Saturday sounds good to me (don't think the swim meet is an issue anymore). I'd probably drop my wife off at work around 7:30am and then head that way. I haven't been to Ocala in a while so I'm not sure how long that'll take me. I'd imagine 2-2.5hrs to get there. I should probably do a mapquest search from Merritt Island to your place to get a better idea.

I'll be more than happy to post my impressions. I'll have to bring some Tool along with Sarah McLachlan, Dave Matthews, and Phantom of the Opera. These discs will give me an idea of the dynamic capabilities of the speakers along with how they handle the vocal range (and how the open back mids compare to my sealed). I'm also interested in seeing if there's truly a noticable difference in bass extension compared to the dual sealed 270's in my towers. One potential issue is Wade is using an outboard amp vs. my receiver. Although, my receiver has proven to be extremely capable when compared to an outboard 100W/ch, 7-channel Anthem amp.

If the Statements can handle the dynamics similar to my towers AND add in even better imaging and a larger soundstage then I'll have to figure out a way to sell my towers and build these.

[Sefferdog]

Brian, what type of receiver are you using? Right now I am using my Denon 3803 as a pre/pro for the LPA-1. It would be nothing to stoke up the Denon if it is comparable to what you have now.

Also, the only thing I have for playing discs is an old universal Pioneer. I don't recall the model right off hand, a 563A I think. I don't use it much, as I rip my CDs to hard disc and play them from my computer via a coax connection.

Either way, you will be able to get a sense of what the Statements are capable of.

[KorbenDallas]

Next Saturday morning sounds good to me, too. I was hoping to hear the Nat P's that you had in one of your pictures before the Statements. I could stop by before Brian gets there, say 9:00 or so, that way I'm not taking time away from the focus of the meet.

[Sefferdog]

Next Saturday morning sounds good to me, too. I was hoping to hear the Nat P's that you had in one of your pictures before the Statements. I could stop by before Brian gets there, say 9:00 or so, that way I'm not taking time away from the focus of the meet.

The only problem with that is that my buddy came by yesterday and got the Nat Ps. I don't know if I will have them back by then, if at all. I will let you know as the time gets closer. Sorry about that.

[KorbenDallas]

The only problem with that is that my buddy came by yesterday and got the Nat Ps. I don't know if I will have them back by then, if at all. I will let you know as the time gets closer. Sorry about that.

Ahhh, no problem it was more of a curiousity thing.

[JaxLax]

Jim,
I see you have a design for the mini-statment with a matching center channel, is there a thread I missed about a full sized statement center channel I missed? Or is there even one?

If not, what are all you guys using/would use for a good, timber matched center? Or even surrounds?

I'm just wondering as I am getting ready to start on a project and would like to go for a 5.1 set-up. Depending on the house I move into I already have plans for the sub, I just need the rest. Oh and all are DIY.

[Jim Holtz]

Jim,
I see you have a design for the mini-statment with a matching center channel, is there a thread I missed about a full sized statement center channel I missed? Or is there even one?

If not, what are all you guys using/would use for a good, timber matched center? Or even surrounds?

Actually, the center and Mini Statements were more of a sneak preview rather than an announcement. The center will work great for either the Mini's of full sized Statements. The RS180 and RS225 are tonally the same so it'll work well in either application. The center should end up with a F3 of about 40 Hz. with the Mini's coming in around the upper 30's. The mids will be the same transmission line design as the Statements and Mini's so it should match perfectly.

I have a very large center now that is excellent but simply won't work with most of the newer thin HDTV's at about 70 pounds. I just weighed the Statements center and it's 45 pounds so still not a light weight.

Crossover and building plans should be available around Labor Day, I'm guessing. That will be determined by Curt's schedule and how smoothly the development process goes. He's the man with the brains. :T

Jim

[Jim Holtz]

Hi Guys,

It sounds like a great time next Saturday. I wish I lived closer. I'd love to join you.

Some of the things I've learned since building the Statements are that they are *extremely* revealing of source components. When Chris brought his Cary Cd player and silver interconnects over, the better equipment took the system to another level. I can't justify buying a Cary. They're just too much money. So, I've been trying to get performance that is similar for less money. The changes I've made since the listening session that have helped a lot are:

Changing CAT5 speaker cables for Bluejeans 10 gauge cable.

Changing from the DAC in my Audio Refinement to a Zhaolu 2.5C with a couple inexpensive and minor mods.

I found used silver interconnects on Audiogon and installed them from the DAC to pre/pro and from the pre/pro to the amp.

These changes eliminated all the harshness that was mentioned in Chris original review and increased detail. The Zhaolu still isn't as good as the Cary. My next upgrade is installing a Zapfilter discrete out put stage in the Zhaolu. I hope that will get me Cary quality sound on a "beer" budget. I have a Red Wine Audio modded Squeezebox feeding the DAC that has a beautiful midrange and top end but is weak on bass. If it had the bass I like, it would be my stand alone solution.

Anyway, the moral of the story is, the better the front end, the better the sound quality. The statements will allow you room to grow and not be a limiting factor.

Have fun!

Jim

[Brian Bunge]

Wade,

I'm using a Sherwood Newcastle R-863T receiver. It's more than capable of handling 4 ohm loads. I've been very happy with it and haven't been so eager to upgrade amplification after comparing it to the Anthem. I might try to get you to come down with your amp sometime to see if we hear a real difference.

Jim,

I believe that BlueJeans uses Canare speaker wire (or at least they did in the past). I'm using Canare 4S11, which is basically 14/4 speaker wire. Combining two of the wires together gives an effective 11 gauge wire from what they've stated.

I do have a Pioneer Elite DV37 DVD player that I used as a CD player as well until it got to the point where it didn't like to consistently play CD's anymore (plays DVD's with no issues though). So my dad gave me his old cheapo Pioneer DVD player that's not even a true progressive unit. It serves as my CD player now. Pretty much all of my interconnects are Canare.

[Jim Holtz]

I believe that BlueJeans uses Canare speaker wire (or at least they did in the past). I'm using Canare 4S11, which is basically 14/4 speaker wire. Combining two of the wires together gives an effective 11 gauge wire from what they've stated.

Brain,

I had a complete response written when I remembered who the benefactors of our form are so I'll not go any further than to recommend a good low resistance cable for your speaker cables.

Jim

[Brian Bunge]

Brain,

Thank you for the compliment!

I had a complete response written when I remembered who the benefactors of our form are so I'll not go any further than to recommend a good low resistance cable for your speaker cables.

Jim

Yep, even my basic engineering degree tells me that is always a good idea. :T

[Jim Holtz]

Although the compliment was unintentional, I'm sure it is well deserved. :rofl:

That's what happens when I get in a hurry....

Jim

[Brian Bunge]

Although the compliment was unintentional...

Hey, I'll take 'em however I can get 'em!