Ardent Speaker Camp

[Bear]

Tonight I'm listening to Synchronicity from a 24/176.4 source... having a real "80's" moment in bliss!

That would be a nice addition to the collection. Any more hints?

[JonMarsh]

You have a PM.

It's complicated... I'll describe it in detail if you're interested.

[---k---]

Thanks, Mike.

I'll repeat a few here..

Thanks. Interesting look.

[PewterTA]

Just a quick question is the Cxi update to the Ardents going to be a performance increase or just more of a change? Wkhanna and I are waiting eagerly to build 2 sets of the Ardents but if the Cxi will be better, we will definitely have no problem waiting for those.

I searched through this thread and the site and didn't see any real information on what the differences were to be between the two.

Thanks Jon (and anyone else helping)!

-Dan

[JonMarsh]

The Cxi is an experimental concept for one that would be a bit easier to build, will use a new woofer alignment (if the TMWW and the Modula Xtreme work out), and would incorporate a waveguide.

It is intended at this time to replace the idea of an RS driver equipped low cost version of the current Ardent design, which was discussed earlier. I think the why's and wherefores will be sort of obvious once you look at the configuration- which isn't to prevent someone from doing that, but hopefully would give them a little pause for thought.

The Cxi version would use dual RS225's in an FCA configuration. ("Flux Capacitor Alignment"). I'd prefer to continue with the C79 midrange, though I keep investigating alternatives based on cost/performance.

The tweeter setup would most likely be the D2608/9130 in the waveguide.

Now, this could also be adapted to the same midrange and tweeter setup as in the current Ardent, but using the waveguide, the front baffle would be more like the M8ta, and not require such a complicated assembly process nor as deep a baffle bevel. The front could be cut more like this baffle to accommodate the 6.5" waveguide diameter.



That's a lot easier to cut than the Ardent is. It's doable with ordinary 10" saws.



Whether this different LF alignment, coupled with the existing midrange and upper end would be an improvement or not, is a debatable point- more measurements to be made and listening tests with the TMWW upcoming.

My thought was to create something with a family resemblance but some different trade-offss- easier to build, waveguide aided treble diffraction and dispersion control, and lower total cost. I'll know more how I feel about that after the Modula Xtreme's and the Modula TMWW have been built.

[PewterTA]

Thanks Jon, I sort of wondered that. We are doing the Ardents (the best we can get!) and have no problem with the wood working, just wasn't sure where they fit in on the Quality scale.

I love the Nat Ps and wish I had them for myself (WKhanna's are amazing) so we can't wait for the Ardents. We appreciate all the hard work you are putting in to these and all the designs!

[Jed]

I believe (possibly erroneously, but what the hey) that it is due to the shallow waveguide design built into the front panel of the D3004/66200 series. I believe this front panel design is part of what gives the 662000 the superior off axis response at 30-45 degrees, but I think it also results in the elevated response in general in this area. .

How about the 6600? It doesn't have quite the same faceplate, and I found it to measure slightly better in linear and non-linear tests. I know you tested it too, just wondering if you listened to it in place of the 6620.

[JonMarsh]

How about the 6600? It doesn't have quite the same faceplate, and I found it to measure slightly better in linear and non-linear tests. I know you tested it too, just wondering if you listened to it in place of the 6620.

I didn't have a chance to- just had them on loan from Bear for testing and sent them back long before the Ardents were finished building. The measurements on the 660000 look a bit better as regards the HF "bump".

Now, interesting thing is, looking at the tweeter front plate,



it is more similar to this...



Enough that I'd hazard the mounting is quite compatible and the basic profile excepting right at the suspension edge nearly identical.

Well, those new inductors should be in tomorrow, I think. Hope I have a bit of spare time Saturday besides getting ready for biz travel Sunday.

Oh, and there are a pair of Vifa NE180W on the way for testing... cripes, I should know better by now, but curiosity got the better of me. Who knows, maybe they'd be nice in a dipole... must have lots of copper in the gap, judging from the impedance curve. Almost makes a SS look high inductance. That should bode well for upper midrange harmonic distortion, I hope.





Why do I have the feeling PT Barnum may have been talking about me? And is alive and well at Vifa?



In my defense, I'm a sucker for drivers with titanium VC formers. :W

And why does it look like there are voice coil leads embedded in both sides of the spider? Questions, questions...

[Dave Bullet]

And why does it look like there are voice coil leads embedded in both sides of the spider? Questions, questions...

For balanced mass on the spider.

[numberoneoppa]

I think he might mean top and bottom, in which case is quite curious indeed!

[cjd]

I was really tempted by those Vifas too, glad to see we'll get some data on them.

[numberoneoppa]

I was really tempted by those Vifas too, glad to see we'll get some data on them.

They look very classy.

[Silversmoky]

Glad you ordered a set of these Jon! I think everyone is curious how these are going to test. I have been fighting the urge to grab a couple of the 149's and the 180's when I saw these were now available a couple of days ago. They sure look awfully nice!

[Hdale85]

Pretty impressive looking driver for the money! I was expecting 200 or so per driver.

[ThomasW]

I think he might mean top and bottom, in which case is quite curious indeed!

When something is sewn through a single layer of material it shows on both sides..

[numberoneoppa]

When something is sewn through a single layer of material it shows on both sides..

Oh, I didn't know it was sewn in. I don't examine drivers enough, apparently. ops:

[JonP]

Yeah, it's too bad you can't actually see any of the LBL in the Ardent's - it's more stealth mode, but when you're doing the driver mounting, it's quite obvious!

Indeed... looking at the build pics again I'm picturing an "artistically" multilayer baffle with the LBL/MDF (or some other interesting looking wood) repeating thru it and clear coated. Maybe even continue the pattern, or go with the bamboo look with the rest of the box.. Neat looking stuff.

I'm likely to make the drive to the NorCal DIY again... will be nice to actually see a few of your creations. Might even bring up a pair of Modula MT's to keep things in the family, and compare with the MT MkII's... but I digress...

[igy137]

How about the 6600? It doesn't have quite the same faceplate, and I found it to measure slightly better in linear and non-linear tests. I know you tested it too, just wondering if you listened to it in place of the 6620.

I was looking at Zaph's measurements of the 6620 and wondered, that it's the same version as that was measured by Jon. They seem to be different to me, on Zaph's it's more like a dip at ~13k not a bump at 20k as in Jon's. Could this be some variance like that happened with different versions of 6600?

I still can't decide the tweeter to use....

[JonMarsh]

Indeed... looking at the build pics again I'm picturing an "artistically" multilayer baffle with the LBL/MDF (or some other interesting looking wood) repeating thru it and clear coated. Maybe even continue the pattern, or go with the bamboo look with the rest of the box.. Neat looking stuff.

I'm likely to make the drive to the NorCal DIY again... will be nice to actually see a few of your creations. Might even bring up a pair of Modula MT's to keep things in the family, and compare with the MT MkII's... but I digress...

well, that would be cool... Mark and Charlie are hoping for a good turn-out this year. I'm in full production mode to try to get some stuff going. Now my problem is scheduling a week off in late March to work on stuff- my time is in high demand at work. Weekends alone aren't cutting it.

[JonMarsh]

I was looking at Zaph's measurements of the 6620 and wondered, that it's the same version as that was measured by Jon. They seem to be different to me, on Zaph's it's more like a dip at ~13k not a bump at 20k as in Jon's. Could this be some variance like that happened with different versions of 6600?

I still can't decide the tweeter to use....

Please note that Zaph measures on an IB, whereas I usually use typical baffle sizes with roundovers that might be used in a real project- this can add diffraction peaks and dips. My measurements were done on a 9" wide tall baffle with 3/4" radius roundover. One can argue that's adding to the tweeter response- then, too, you could just do a 1-2" nearfield measurement. I usually do that, too, just to look for discrepancies.

Then, too, Zaph and I believe MarkK have commented in measuring the original 660000 air circ that no two pairs seemed to measure quite the same as regards HF response- that, to me, indicates the possibility of variability in the VC/dome assemblies, as obviously the metal castings aren't changing.

Personally, I would think very seriously about the D2608/9130 before popping for the 662000. I could certainly see it in a "budget" version of the Ardent, and will probably post a crossover alternative for those so inclined.

[JonMarsh]

Glad you ordered a set of these Jon! I think everyone is curious how these are going to test. I have been fighting the urge to grab a couple of the 149's and the 180's when I saw these were now available a couple of days ago. They sure look awfully nice!

Well, the optimistic side of me thinks that with the very low inductance, they'll have quite low upper midrange distortion. The cone profile is interesting, and the material in photographs looks like bamboo fiber reinforced cone of the ER18RNX. The free flow design should be great for linear distortion in the upper midrange. This might be a really nice driver in the 80 Hz to 2500 Hz area- cross fingers.

It's certainly got the weirdness factor down cold... toss it on an LBL baffle, and who knows... of course, as interesting as the driver looks, they ought to be on plex baffles or on dipole panels.

Of course, that's one of the possible outcomes of the TMWW concept, if it works, is a new Arvo Part somewhat along those lines, or using it at the core. Just a biamp speaker, probably. Say, a waveguide tweeter, a 7" mid, two 8's, and then an LF assembly in dipole below 120 Hz or so. But I'm getting ahead of myself.

Hard to believe I'm playing with paper cone drivers again...

[igy137]

Please note that Zaph measures on an IB, whereas I usually use typical baffle sizes with roundovers that might be used in a real project- this can add diffraction peaks and dips. My measurements were done on a 9" wide tall baffle with 3/4" radius roundover. One can argue that's adding to the tweeter response- then, too, you could just do a 1-2" nearfield measurement. I usually do that, too, just to look for discrepancies.

Then, too, Zaph and I believe MarkK have commented in measuring the original 660000 air circ that no two pairs seemed to measure quite the same as regards HF response- that, to me, indicates the possibility of variability in the VC/dome assemblies, as obviously the metal castings aren't changing.

Personally, I would think very seriously about the D2608/9130 before popping for the 662000. I could certainly see it in a "budget" version of the Ardent, and will probably post a crossover alternative for those so inclined.

Thanks Jon, I surely missed baffle size in question. I take a look also at the D2608/9130.

[CraigJ]

Say, a waveguide tweeter, a 7" mid, two 8's, and then an LF assembly in dipole below 120 Hz or so. But I'm getting ahead of myself.

Stop teasing me! Yesterday, I found myself staring at a display of True Bamboo 3205's as if they were a pair of :boobies: in the middle of a Target store. Why do I need a cutting board, I'm not building anything? (yet)

Craigj

[JonMarsh]

you don't NEED one, but now, you know you WANT one. You know the potential locked up inside one of those little beauties... (and we're not talking about an Apple iPad- that's a story for another day....)

It's a sad day when we're talking about cutting board porn.... maybe I have more of an excuse, being a single guy.

Now, the next thing, is to figure out how to artistically cut the 3205's so as to take advantage of the blonde bamboo portion, and lay them up in a pattern, perhaps in front of a solid vertical sheet of the more standard LBL? Will have to give that one some thought...

[CraigJ]

Now, the next thing, is to figure out how to artistically cut the 3205's so as to take advantage of the blonde bamboo portion...

I had mentally taken advantage of those blonde portions. Get your mind out of the gutter, I was thinking of this; Modula MT MkIV Dipole

[Jonasz]

I had mentally taken advantage of those blonde portions. Get your mind out of the gutter, I was thinking of this; Modula MT MkIV Dipole

Now we're talking! :P

Too few dipole speakers here lately. :cry:

[numberoneoppa]

So is buying 50 cutting boards really cheaper than just buying a sheet of LBL from plyboo?

I mean, it's kinda cool, but think of all of the housewives you're depriving of bamboo cutting boards.

[JonMarsh]

Obviously, it really depends on what you need to do, and what is available locally. At times my Rockler store has been completely out of the LBL, for months at a time- they don't buy it through corporate, but a local supplier, and only do so once a quarter. The idea here was to find and test alternative sources for small projects.

As for those housewives, well, they can do like I did, too, and try online with Amazon, and clean out a supplier there, too. In the Bay area there are a lot of Target stores, so I'm not worried about cornering the market...

[Paul Ebert]

The NE180 does look intriguing. I'd like to see an 8 ohm version.

Jon, I'm curious it you've ever given consideration to the Usher 8945P? It (like the D2608/9130 or HDS) has always been something I've wanted to try. I'd be interested in your thoughts.

[JonMarsh]

I helped an acquaintance assemble a system using the 8945A some years ago. Never seen the P version personally.

It has been my impression that it's kind of a tone copy of the Scanspeak 8545. If you like SS's idea of building in a rising response above ~1 kHz so that a first order roll off can be used out to the two way corner frequency, and is compensated by the same inductor as used for BSC, then it sort of all falls together. Never measured one of the Usher's myself, though I have used the older Scanspeak Kevlar and carbon fiber 7's making two ways for others. When I started preferring more pistonic behavior in driver cones, after measuring some of the scanspeaks with nearfield techniques, I kind of lost interest in any driver that exhibited that kind of behavior. Generally, there's some kind of energy storage mechanism that accompanies the decoupling of part of the cone, and it shows up in shaped sine burst tests.

But I haven't measured this driver or listened to it, so I'm only engaging in informed speculation-

[JonP]

I had mentally taken advantage of those blonde portions. Get your mind out of the gutter, I was thinking of this; Modula MT MkIV Dipole

You could at least taken her label off, first!!

[JonP]

Stop teasing me! Yesterday, I found myself staring at a display of True Bamboo 3205's as if they were a pair of :boobies: in the middle of a Target store. Why do I need a cutting board, I'm not building anything? (yet)

Craigj

Bwahahahaha!!! :rofl: Sick puppies, we are!!

[JonMarsh]

You guys are incorrigible! Where do I sign up?

Seriously, I was planning on limiting my build plans for this year, I had a real sensible New Years Resolution to just finish up my Ardents and do this one pair of MT's with the waveguide- and now I've got some new weird midwoofers heading my way, no impulse control at all, it seems- either that or some unseen "Force" compelling me to do unexpected and unplanned things...

Remember "Close Encounters of the Third Kind", when Dreyfuss was in the middle of his clay mountain construction phase taking over his home? Sometimes I look at these piles of bamboo cutting boards I get deja vu and get creeped out- can't figure out if it's the idiot savant at work or just the idiot!

[CraigJ]

You guys are incorrigible! Where do I sign up?

Ah, aren't you our leader? ;x(

[JonMarsh]

Ah, aren't you our leader? ;x(

No, but I suppose the Chancellor is... maybe that's why I feel like a puppet on strings some days... have these odd ideas floating up in my consciousness.

Like, when I woke up this morning, I didn't intend to order any more Vifa parts for testing... but I did!?!

In that case, though, it's the loyal followers insisting I get off my butt and pick a new tweeter for the Neo D CC- and these are folks that already have theirs built, but figure I shouldn't let a good thing wither on the vine, so to speak.

[JonMarsh]

midrange to test for CXi on the way

Thanks Jon, I sort of wondered that. We are doing the Ardents (the best we can get!) and have no problem with the wood working, just wasn't sure where they fit in on the Quality scale.

I love the Nat Ps and wish I had them for myself (WKhanna's are amazing) so we can't wait for the Ardents. We appreciate all the hard work you are putting in to these and all the designs!

Thanks for the kind words. Some days I wake up in the morning and see the Ardents in the living room and wonder how the heck I found the time and energy to do these, then I remember all the time off I had to take last year as cost savings measures at work!

Well, a possible midrange driver for the CXi version is on the way. This is not a high priority project, but I am trying to lay the ground work for it, and establish true feasibility. In conjunction with some other testing later in March, I should have a good go/no-go decision point.

OTOH, what I'm really looking forward to is working a few hours this afternoon if possible on tweaking up the Ardent crossovers- the new tweeter inductors came in, and everything else is on hand. Wish I wasn't flying out on business early Sunday morning.

[cjd]

Sounds like the Chancellor needs to find some new contractors.

[chrismercurio]

Jon,

You may already know this but here goes:

PlyBoo bamboo ply is available locally through Smith and Fong PlyBoo in South San Francisco and Teragren bamboo ply from MacBeath in Berkeley or San Jose.

Best,

Chris

[JonMarsh]

Hi Chris,

No, I didn't know that- thanks for the heads up! My Rockler guys are closer, but they don't carry but one style of board. I'll check these out sometime soon.

Two days down, two to go before coming home...

[cjd]

FWIW: Having talked to both the Plyboo and the Teragren folks, I prefer Teragren - they were the only ones to say up front that batch-to-batch color matching was really tough to guarantee, and that it would change color with sun exposure but try to keep the floor clear of furniture, rugs, etc. that would block the sun for a week to minimize this. That was some time ago though.

[evilskillit]

Interesting pic. Did you just go by the airport to stare longingly at planes and think about being home and working on speakers?

[JonMarsh]

Interesting pic. Did you just go by the airport to stare longingly at planes and think about being home and working on speakers?

Nah, taken just as I got off the plane on Sunday arriving at Palm Springs. It's one of those quaint little airports like C terminal in San Jose that doesn't have jetways, still uses stairs. A some Southern CA airports, like Burbank and Palm Springs, don't even have roofs over all the gate corridors, but are just open air... not something that would work in Minneapolis, I suppose...

But I do pull this photo up on my phone from time to time and think about working on the Ardent's when I get back- got parts, just need time. Also really dying to hear some of my 24/176.4 "extractions" from SACD on them once I get them dialed in. I have big hopes for these SS Be tweeters.

[JonMarsh]

FWIW: Having talked to both the Plyboo and the Teragren folks, I prefer Teragren - they were the only ones to say up front that batch-to-batch color matching was really tough to guarantee, and that it would change color with sun exposure but try to keep the floor clear of furniture, rugs, etc. that would block the sun for a week to minimize this. That was some time ago though.

Kink of like avoiding initial Plasma burn-in by having a uniform field exposure the first 100 hours or so.


Yeah, I'd expect sun darkening to be a possible factor, like it is for Cherry. I'm wondering if I should "pre-sun" the baffles I'm working on now before lacquering, or if that will give enough protection that I don't need to worry.

Well, it's only rock and roll, so no biggie however that turns out.

[villastrangiato]

Kink of like avoiding initial Plasma burn-in by having a uniform field exposure the first 100 hours or so.


Yeah, I'd expect sun darkening to be a possible factor, like it is for Cherry. I'm wondering if I should "pre-sun" the baffles I'm working on now before lacquering, or if that will give enough protection that I don't need to worry.

Well, it's only rock and roll, so no biggie however that turns out.

I recommend SPF 50 sealer before lacquering - as a good deal of UV ray protection gets diluted in the lacquering process. But then, finishing with cocoa butter is always an option - a perennial favorite for those of us who enjoy tropical climates....... :B

[cjd]

I'd only worry if you plan to add felt treatment but later remove it.

It won't matter if it's got finish or not, it's a (non-harmful to finish) chemical change, just like carmelizing (it's not a dye, it's a chemical change in the bamboo, so it's 100% through not just surface)