My first project is a 4 way speaker...

[cochinada]

Thank you.

I agree with you as those seem very sensible suggestions and I would very much like to put some of them in practice but with the exception of the heavy curtains my hands are stuck and I explain why: the projector.

It is fixed to the ceiling and there is no way I will move it again. Yes, some time ago I had a different disposition and also some other speakers. In that period my tv was obstructing the window and the sofa was in the middle facing the window, so I had the speakers along the shortest wall. Even then, with the kitchen opening and the door I had some audible asymmetries although I never took the trouble to measure anything. Going back to the projector, since I cannot (won't) move it, I'm forced to leave the tv and the speakers where they are, give or take a few cms, ten at most. Opposing the projector I have a screen also mounted on the ceiling that will cover the tv, so that's another no no for moving the rack.

Before I forget those cylinders are subwoofers, each weighting 110kg and unfortunately they don't have any positive effect on the acoustics I would add.

The desk I suppose I could put it against the wall if it wasn't too wide, provided of course that I removed first the furniture where I have the lamp but even if I threw it away still the desk wouldn't fit. Unfortunately I don't have any other place to dump some of the furniture and I really need it for storage purposes.

The 'second shelf' from the door that you mentioned is actually where I have a great part of my CD's and not only it weights about 270kg which makes it very hard to move but also cannot stay next to the door or this won't close.

I could however gain perhaps some 20cms if I put the chair on the other side of the desk, that is at the center of the room, but I doubt this would be any advantage.

Perhaps I could put some diffusor on the ceiling but it would have to be very shallow otherwise it would block the projector. How effective this would be remains the question...

[TEK]

heavy curtains it is then ;-)

[dar47]

I know sometimes we only have 1 room that has to be all and end all. First I had my daughter the interior Architect have a look at your sketchup render and she laughed and said typical guy arrangement and she said why so many different sized wall units. haha.

I asked if you wanted to remove some stuff from the arrangement keeping the tv where it is and needing treatment on the window that is not heavy fabric what would you do? You may have to then put the stuff back in! She said,

1. You can do a double motorized track for the window with sheers against the glass and a simple fabric in the room. I agree will do the same as 1 heavy fabric. maybe pull solar shades with a simple single motorized fabric in the room.
2. She asked what are those round things in the corners and I said sonna tube subs, she said take them out. You should measure the room with out them and see if any more base is needed in that room without them.
3. She said 2 many small wall units he should take some out and move the desk at an angle in the corner. I said he probably is displaying his music in those small shelves! She said sheesh, 1 of those bigger units can house storage bins for the small stuff he can get at. I would move the small black units out from the front wall and put the desk angled in the corner and have the chair facing out. You can hang blankets over the windows and measure this arrangement.

I would start there and you should get an idea if this helps.

[cochinada]

I know sometimes we only have 1 room that has to be all and end all. First I had my daughter the interior Architect have a look at your sketchup render and she laughed and said typical guy arrangement and she said why so many different sized wall units. haha.

I asked if you wanted to remove some stuff from the arrangement keeping the tv where it is and needing treatment on the window that is not heavy fabric what would you do? You may have to then put the stuff back in! She said,

1. You can do a double motorized track for the window with sheers against the glass and a simple fabric in the room. I agree will do the same as 1 heavy fabric. maybe pull solar shades with a simple single motorized fabric in the room.
2. She asked what are those round things in the corners and I said sonna tube subs, she said take them out. You should measure the room with out them and see if any more base is needed in that room without them.
3. She said 2 many small wall units he should take some out and move the desk at an angle in the corner. I said he probably is displaying his music in those small shelves! She said sheesh, 1 of those bigger units can house storage bins for the small stuff he can get at. I would move the small black units out from the front wall and put the desk angled in the corner and have the chair facing out. You can hang blankets over the windows and measure this arrangement.

I would start there and you should get an idea if this helps.

First of all thanks for consulting your daughter. She's right. All the furniture was picked by me. The cherry oak furniture, I mean the three shelves, the heavy CD unit with the drawers and the desk came first (not forget the sofa). Then I designed the rack and had it custom built. Because this is a small flat with only one bedroom and this living room, I soon ran out of storage as I was acquiring more books and CDs and DVD's so I bought the black shelves that are now 98,5% full with CD's as well. To give you an idea of how serious the problem is, I even have three more shelves with CD's on the hall and if my WC was big enough...but I wander...

The only way I can let go of the black shelves and also the bulky CD custom made unit is if and when I decide to rip all my CD collection. I have a little over 4000 titles right now but this would imply a paradigm shift in the way I'm listening to music, that is, no more CD player but a DAC instead and some sort of PC/HTPC/Server with enough space. For the DAC it should not be a problem but for the other thing there are multiple choices and almost all very expensive. But that's it! The cherry oak shelves are full with my books and I'm not obviously going to throw them away. :nono: The big desk is basically my working place or my office, where I sit and design my projects and organize my daily stuff so letting it go is also not a real option.

Now, I was shocked to hear she wants me to take my beautiful subs out. 8O Typical girl thinking. Never! These are my proud and joy. Whenever I see a movie they give that extra salt and I rejoice when my sofa starts to shake and the walls tremble. If they go, I go. :B

That leaves us with the curtain idea. I actually have motorized sheers on the outside for blocking the sun of course but these serves me no good for acoustic purposes. I wonder how much it would cost and how big is the motor if I decided to follow her suggestion of a double motorized track inside but what is the idea of the sheers inside? The fabric is clear. :roll:

heavy curtains it is then ;-)

Amen ;x(

[BobEllis]

There's no kill like overkill.

I know the feeling of wanting access to your media. My solution was a media server with 8TB of hard drive space and jriver media center pushing music and movies to an Oppo BDP-103. It's all there to browse on my phone and I feel like I listen to more of my collection than I would if I had to flip through physical media. Movies are more problematic if you like the extras, but if all you care about is the movie itself it works great. I have the extras ripped but usually only watch once when I buy the disk.

Yes, bass heads have a tough time losing subs. Been there myself (a pair of 18" subs in a room of similar size). But, check how well your new speakers do on their own with the subs out of the room (or at least one out). You may be surprised how well they do with a touch of EQ.

Just a couple thoughts to help declutter.

[TEK]

Seems like it's time to get a bigger place ;-)

[dar47]

Haha, your just like all of us we like our things the way they are.:B

You have invested a lot of time and money getting these monsters up and going but they are going to be effected more by room modes and comb filtering in that room then and tweaking you can do. Like Bob I moved to streaming and once your there you will love it. You can start with a low priced option and keep your CD's for now. If you have time move some stuff out and just measure to get an idea of what is effecting sound the most then you can at least live with it or make some changes as you go. If your 60% movies and 40% music then you may not want any changes but if music is the first priority then your room arrangement and treatment will pay off big and your measurement will help bring this home for you.:W

[cochinada]

Well guys, sooner or latter I will also have to take that road. I also have that feeling Bob mentioned that as soon as I have all my music at the touch of a finger I will listen to a lot more because it is much more convenient. I will study what is out there. One of my requisites for strange as it might seem is not to use WiFi as I'm totally for avoiding these sort of radiations. It's enough that we have to bear the cell phones spreading like the plague. :evil:

Meanwhile I've listen to your advice and just hanged some curtains I had put aside because they were blocking my view. I will now measure again the acoustics and see if there is any improvement or not.

As much I would like to get a bigger place this is not an option for now as the prices here per square meter are very high, at least comparing to our salaries.

Concerning the subwoofers I'm also using one 18" driver in each one. This was my project before the central speaker and even if I could be convinced that I would have the same bass with these new speakers, which I seriously doubt, it's almost impossible to sell anything here unless for peanuts.

[cochinada]

My solution was a media server with 8TB of hard drive space and jriver media center pushing music and movies to an Oppo BDP-103.

Exactly what is the role of your Oppo here? To act like a DAC?

[BobEllis]

That's a way to look at it. My amps are connected directly to the Oppo's analog outputs. Primarily the Oppo serves as a DLNA renderer. It provides the network receiver, audio DAC and video rendering completely controlled by JRiver's DLNA player. The Oppo can also play files from a shared network folder, but I find the interface on the JRiver app much better. As silly as it seems, I am old enough to remember volume knobs that turned pots. I like the fast response rather than hitting increase/decrease buttons and waiting for the system to reach desired volume. The JRiver app has a slider that works essentially instantaneously. I can change sources and get the volume adjusted before the DAC has had a chance to lock. In my system there is a significant disparity between volume settings of TV and music for the same listening level. Just one thing I like better about the JRiver interface.

I also use the Oppo to upconvert cable TV, watch Netflix and VUDU content, and even sometimes to play shiny discs. I have a small collection of SACDs I keep handy along with 3D movies (which the Oppo won't play as 3D via network) I've only got 50 or so discs in the living room. The other 750 are boxed up in storage. I know the 105 has better DACs but was out of budget. A decent DAC for the music side is in my upgrade plan.

[cochinada]

I see... much more sophisticated than I thought. Words like DLNA don't mean a thing to me. I guess I'm even more old fashioned.D

I think I have great news! My curtains and closing the door produced some noticeable changes on those figures, hopefully for the better and the curtains are not even heavy as they are made of linen! I'm waiting for the report of my consultant before I post the results. Stay tuned.

P.S. no need to get rid of my beautiful subwoofers.

[TEK]

Could you say a few words about the subs, and how jo eq them (if you do).

[cochinada]

Sure. I have a MiniDSP but just use a LT because for the equalization I'm relying on the Anthem for room correction.
They are made of MDF and each has a 18" SUNDOWN AUDIO X-18 D2 driver down firing.

If you want to know more about my subwoofer project I have a thread here.

[dar47]

Great, small changes will add up quick.:T

[cochinada]

Well I started ripping my CD collection Yesterday. It will probably take 200 days more or less but it is the only way I can unclutter my living room and ditch the CD cabinet and all the IKEA shelves.

At the same time I decided to close the opening to the kitchen and get rid of that nuisance as well. So, what has begun as a simple speaker project has now turned into something much more encompassing.

I have a lot of questions about the HTPC or music player and NAS but I already started investigating several possibilities. In due course I will probably open another post just for these questions.

Meanwhile I've been studying new layouts for my living room and came out with two options for starters.

Bob, you could ask the opinion of your daughter as I'm curious to hear what an interior architect has to say...

Option 1

Images not available

Option 2

Images not available

I have one that I prefer but I'm opened to other suggestions. Remember though that the sofa and the rack cannot move and both the subwoofers are here to stay.

[BobEllis]

On the acoustic treatment side, when I had a similar layout the thing that made the biggest difference was a large absorber behind the couch. It reduced high frequency reflections and the image confusion that resulted. I used 3" egg crate foam in a frame 1.5" off the wall. Something like Owens Corning 703 at a similar distance would be more effective. Many acoustics references suggest diffusion treatment on the back wall, but so close to my head on the couch I figured absorption would be more effective.

You'll enjoy having your entire collection available with a click. Random lists are great. I tell JRiver not to play anything I have heard in the last week for extra variety.

[dar47]

haha, #2 looks a lot better to me, it gives you room to move the towers in and out, side to side for slight response adjustments. The tall wall unit now frames the sub on the left and treatment can be added over the smaller unit. I would move your PC to the other side of the desk away from the sub. The little shelf on the right by the sub could go on the left side of your couch. I'll have my daughter have a look when she get's back, she in from NY and been catching up with friends while back home for the holidays. Your going to have fun setting up a streaming method. I think this will depend on what you like to do and I'm sure guys will throw with ideas when you open your thread.

[cochinada]

Yes, the idea is to do some treatment not only on the wall behind the sofa but on the ceiling as well. Let's see what works the best. More opinions are most welcome.

Curious you prefer option 2. For 'harmony' sake I would say the first is more balanced but let's wait for the opinion of your daughter. The tall unit actually also frames the subwoofer on the first option as well but I'm glad you mentioned the treatment that can be added to the back of the left speaker. That didn't cross my mind. The little shelf was a lapse of mine as I have it exactly on the position you suggest on the first option. the PC should be possible to move it as well. the only problem is my HDMI cable that might be a little short.

I'm going to open that thread very soon but I'm so busy with the crossover tuning and the ripping that I almost don't have time left to think.

Just one question before I'm going to far and screw things: when you ripped your CD collection did you make a folder for each CD or what? Did you create multiple FLAC's for each track or one single one and finally did you create also a cue sheet?

[dar47]

I like DBpoweramp suite it includes Perfect Tunes which will check your rip against a data base and fill in any missing bits. The metadata can be check as well as Art work. My file structure is Music/Artist/album. This way multiple album can go under the Artist folder. What ever streaming platform you choose will have many options for organizing your cue for playback. All my stuff is lossless Flac 1 copy each song.

[dar47]

Sorry just to keep your options open for later easy move, I store music on 1 drive so C:/music/Artist/Album nothing else on this drive. This way if you choose a db off your PC or Raid configuration in a pc it's easy to move later. If you go NAS it's easily moved.

[cochinada]

I'm using EAC but now I faced a CD with one video track in the end that it doesn't rip. What to do?

[TEK]

Just be sure that you rip lossless!

I also think that it's a good idea to add some treatment to the wall behind the coach. The sound from the speakers will hit the wall and give you heavy and early reflections. That is bound to severely affect the listening experience, so adding diffusers or absorbents is a good idea.

You can by some (expensive) or build something for yourself. I would recommend finding a photo you really like and get it printed on fabric. Then you build a frame and stuff it with your preferred absorbent material. Finally you add the printed fabric over the stuffing. You may make this with no visible frame, or with a kick-ass wide frame of any kind if you prefer that.
I did this a while ago. Was quite easy to put together.

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?40797-Ardent-inspired-sub-project-element-and-amps-arrived&p=585991&viewfull=1#post585991

I created a absorbent panel, but you could of course also have a diffusor behind the printed fabric if you prefer that.

Done right diffusers and sound absorbents might be very decorative.
You should also evaluate adding some sound absorbers behind the speakers/tv.

[cochinada]

Cool. :T I have to show this to my girlfriend because when I mentioned that we were going to cover the ceiling AND the walls with acoustic panels she seemed somewhat concerned. :alol:

[BobEllis]

If your decor is going to have a strong movie orientation check out http://www.movieposterdb.com/ Print up several extra posters on fabric as TEK suggests and rotate them.

I also ripped Music/Artist/album in FLAC with tracks named "track_number album title". I don't have a dedicated drive, but with everything under /music it's pretty easy to move/copy/back up. JRiver can manage both audio and video. Its flac ripping capabilities work well for me, automatically adding cover art, etc. Without a supporting BluRay player program it won't rip movies, though. I use makeMKV for video.

If you change your mind about how you want to organize the folders, many programs will rename files and folders and organize them for you. An advantage of artist/album is mutliple versions of the same song don't overwrite each other.

[cochinada]

I've opened a thread here for discussing all the issues about my new 'ripping and HTPC saga'.

Perhaps I will open another one for the acoustics discussion but that will have to be left for last as it doesn't make sense to put much thought into it before my living room is set and done and this will take months.

I have to go back to the crossover and see if I can finish these monsters ASAP before my head explodes. :-y

[---k---]

I like my Vortex box. It makes ripping very easy and is a great front end.

http://vortexbox.org/

I have a few CDs that will not rip due to hidden tracks and other copy protection schemes.

[cochinada]

These hidden tracks or bonus tracks with some basic video are nonsense in my opinion. I've been just ignoring them and so far so good.

Meanwhile I've ordered the components for the crossovers.

There is a tough compromise to be made between Power Response and FR.

Image not available

[TEK]

Components? Are you doing a passive crossover? I assumed, for unknown reasons, that you were going active, not passive...

[cochinada]

Those were unknown for sure

[5th element]

Looking good there! Bet you can't wait to hear them!

[cochinada]

Indeed. This is taking much more time than I thought it would. I never thought that building a pair of speakers from scratch would be soooooooooooooo demanding. :-y

I'm a bit concerned about the FR not being as flat as I planned from the beginning but it was a needed compromise due basically to the topology I've chosen. Perhaps things would have been different if instead of a 4 way I've gone for a 5 way so that one of the mediums would cover a higher frequency range alone. :rofl: But then again I would always have the directivity issue with the woofers so it's really a matter of choices and compromises like everything else in live.

Anyway, let's wait and see how these will sound. I would like to have them ready by the end of the Month.

[cochinada]

The layout rehearsal. I'm a bit worried that the board will crack due to the weight of the big coil and the two capacitors as it is only 5mm thick...

Image not available

[5th element]

Is that 5mm ply? Usually ply can bend a fair bit before it snaps what's it like at the moment?

[cochinada]

Yes, it is and I cannot increase the thickness because the components are so big that an extra 5mm will prevent the lid from being attached.
All the components weight exactly 3kg. At the moment I don't have them attached yet as I'm figuring out the best layout so I cannot pick up the board of everything collapses.
The big coil on the left alone is responsible for half the weight (1.57Kg).

[Steve Manning]

I think you should be fine, how is the board getting mounted inside of the cabinet? When I built my crossovers for my Jensen's I used floor underlayment which is about the same thickness and I had no problems, especially once they were mounted. The biggest thing I worried about was what glue to use so the components would not come loose since they hang upside down. Here are a couple of pictures of mine ......

[kimmosto]

The big coil on the left alone is responsible for half the weight (1.57Kg).

Why? They have 400...500 g coils of 6 mH.

[TEK]

I think you should be fine, how is the board getting mounted inside of the cabinet? When I built my crossovers for my Jensen's I used floor underlayment which is about the same thickness and I had no problems, especially once they were mounted. The biggest thing I worried about was what glue to use so the components would not come loose since they hang upside down. Here are a couple of pictures of mine ......


[ATTACH=CONFIG]25081[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]25082[/ATTACH]

Holy shit Steve...
That's one heck of a crossover, I'm official impressed. And a little bit concerned for you - that level of perfection can't be healthy ;-)

[CraigJ]

Holy shit Steve...
And a little bit concerned for you - that level of perfection can't be healthy ;-)

Ha ha, that's why Steve is working with Jon on the Minerva project. ;x(

Cochinada, I've been thinking about your room layout. What if you moved your speakers and couch 90 degrees clockwise so each speaker would be equal distance from a side wall (speakers facing out from the windows). The back of the couch would be in line with one side of your doorway so you would have a mini walkway between the couch and your desk. This should assist in getting the back wall further behind you plus give you equal side reflections from the speakers. I my memory is fairly accurate, I think TEK had a room with one of his B&W speakers next to a side wall and the other out in another room, sort of. I believe he had issues with that type of unequal setup.

Good luck and you have done a fantastic job so far.

Cj

[TEK]

I think TEK had a room with one of his B&W speakers next to a side wall and the other out in another room, sort of. I believe he had issues with that type of unequal setup

Jup, you remember right. I had a setup where I had the system in "the foot" of a L shaped room that was quite narrow.
Ouch - don't make me remember that. Always wondering about how that affected the sound, never really happy/pleased.

But hey, I have a solution for you when it comes to that. Build yourself a new house and add a nice shaped room only for your audio setup - that solve most room issues (maybe except from some standing wave issues ;-))
Remember to sound dampen the room so that you can listen to music while all others have gone to bed or are doing other stuff.

HIGHLY RECOMMENDED

*feeling lucky*

[cochinada]

I think you should be fine, how is the board getting mounted inside of the cabinet? When I built my crossovers for my Jensen's I used floor underlayment which is about the same thickness and I had no problems, especially once they were mounted. The biggest thing I worried about was what glue to use so the components would not come loose since they hang upside down. Here are a couple of pictures of mine ......

Very nice indeed! :T
I was double measuring again and I'm clear to use a 10mm board if I decide to. By the way, as my components are also going to be upside down I'm facing the same problem. I intend to attach the big capacitors and all the coils with plastic braces but for the others I will have to use glue. What glue did you use?

[Steve Manning]

Holy shit Steve...
That's one heck of a crossover, I'm official impressed. And a little bit concerned for you - that level of perfection can't be healthy ;-)

Thanks TEK ...... Me to TEk .... me to, I'm certainly my own worst enemy and critic that's for sure.

[cochinada]

Why? They have 400...500 g coils of 6 mH.

Well, mainly because it was the only one they had on the store and I didn't want to use a very low AWG because of power dissipation issues, but you are right; I could have gone with a lighter model like 000-1499 for instance if it was available, that is.

Ha ha, that's why Steve is working with Jon on the Minerva project. ;x(

Cochinada, I've been thinking about your room layout. What if you moved your speakers and couch 90 degrees clockwise so each speaker would be equal distance from a side wall (speakers facing out from the windows). The back of the couch would be in line with one side of your doorway so you would have a mini walkway between the couch and your desk. This should assist in getting the back wall further behind you plus give you equal side reflections from the speakers. I my memory is fairly accurate, I think TEK had a room with one of his B&W speakers next to a side wall and the other out in another room, sort of. I believe he had issues with that type of unequal setup.

Good luck and you have done a fantastic job so far.

Cj

Thank you. I cannot rotate or move my couch nor the tv set because of the projector hanging on the ceiling.

[cochinada]

Thanks TEK ...... Me to TEk .... me to, I'm certainly my own worst enemy and critic that's for sure.

I know the feeling...

[---k---]

What glue did you use?

A hot glue gun works well. That's what I've always used. It has more than enough strength to hold things in place, but can be easily removed later for rework, if desired. I've read other use a silicone. Just don't bury the resistors in glue.

BUT, I wouldn't solder or glue until you've listened to them for a week or two or three and are satisfied. Wires just twisted together can be good enough connection if you're not moving around and abusing. I seem to remember CJD not having solder one of his speakers when he demoed them at Iowa.

[cochinada]

A hot glue gun works well. That's what I've always used. It has more than enough strength to hold things in place, but can be easily removed later for rework, if desired. I've read other use a silicone. Just don't bury the resistors in glue.

Hmmmm I've already used it before I'm not a particular fan of hot glue for a couple of reasons. Namely you have to be incredible quick before it cools down and there is practically no chance to make small readjustments when positioning the components. Secondly the glue is so hot that not only it is dangerous to work with but you risk damaging your components like I did in the pass when I applied it directly to some ceramic resistors and the terminals became loose. To prevent this the best is to apply it to the board and not to the component but this makes it even more difficult to be precise in the positioning.

All this being said I would rather much prefer to use some kind of glue that not only sticks really, really, REALLY well to plywood and plastic but also allows some readjustments before it completely dries.

So, is there any one that fulfils these requirements AND is also capable of holding a coil with 1,5 kg or plus upside down? Plain silicone? I always associate silicone with bathrooms and kitchen...