seas thor crossover redesign help

[kram]

Thors


These are my Thors with the old "upgraded" Madisound x-overs............ anybody want to help build me one of the new x-overs?

[kram]

X-over help

jimangie1973 - e-mail me, I was wondering..........................

[KarlXII]

Thors


These are my Thors with the old "upgraded" Madisound x-overs............ anybody want to help build me one of the new x-overs?

Impressive subwoofer!

How does it perform?

[kram]

Seas Subwoofers

Quick and tight.............. plays some of the cleanest notes to be heard from about 30-120hz. I guess I'm a little bit of a bass junkie, I like to feel my movies, I have a little help on the other side with a Focal Utopia 38WX (15") and 1000 watts to get down to 18-80 hz...............

I have the new and improved x-overs on the way. I am going to swap them into my Thors and use the Madisound upgraeded x-overs from the Thors to build a set of Odin/rear surround speakers.......... more pics to come

[peter_m]

Kram...

At at at atat at .. at at!

Translation: Tim Burton rocks!

[kram]

Burton

Tim Burton is a wacko is the greatest sense of the word........ Mars Attacks, Nightmare Before Christmas, Beetle Juice................... only a sick mind like his could create some of the most awsome movies made, although he has made a few a little too over the top, lol......

PS feeling the squish of the "pumpkins in the dead of the night" makes the subs worth every penny and I like to feel like I'm going down with the ship when the Japanese bomb the ships in Pearl Harbor.................

[kram]

Here is a pic of the newly assembled "jim" x-overs................ Claritycap Sa/Mundorf sup - Goertz................ I hope I like the change

[kram]

new x-overs

tweeter section only...........................

[jimangie1973]

Here is a pic of the newly assembled "jim" x-overs................ Claritycap Sa/Mundorf sup - Goertz................ I hope I like the change

Wow, those Clarity caps are huge. Were you able to go with the 2.0 mH and 0.68 mH foil inductors? Also, what resistor did you go with in series with the 4.7uF in the tweeter circuit?

[kram]

jimangie questions

Yes, the Goertz 2.0 and .68 , 16awg inductors............ and used the 9 ohm in line with the Mcap supreme on the tweet............ the Claritycaps (22uf and 30uf) are huge, so everything wouldn't fit on the largest board it had to be split into sep boards for the woofers and the tweets............ look sweet don't they, I hope they sound as good as they look.

[kram]

x-overs

PS anybody needing help contact Adam with Madisound, he is a great help. Thanks again Jim for answering all of my questions!!!

[jimangie1973]

Yes, the Goertz 2.0 and .68 , 16awg inductors............ and used the 9 ohm in line with the Mcap supreme on the tweet............ the Claritycaps (22uf and 30uf) are huge, so everything wouldn't fit on the largest board it had to be split into sep boards for the woofers and the tweets............ look sweet don't they, I hope they sound as good as they look.

Cool, looks good on the simulation so it should sound nice. :T

Make sure you hook the tweeter up with reversed polarity.

[kram]

Tweeter Reversed Polarity

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, guess I didn't read this anywhere, pm me to let me know what to do...............

[Dennis H]

Notice where the + marks for the drivers are on the schematic.

[kram]

X-over

I took that part into consideration............... (I think, lol) I thought there was another change (reverse) that I didn't know about............. Jim keeps pointing me in the right direction, I'm a civil engineer and electrical items are like black magic.

[HYPERTUNE]

Cool, looks good on the simulation so it should sound nice. :T

Make sure you hook the tweeter up with reversed polarity.

So Jim, the .68 coil is ok to replace the .7? That makes sourcing parts a little easier for me.....

TIA

[jimangie1973]

So Jim, the .68 coil is ok to replace the .7? That makes sourcing parts a little easier for me.....

TIA

Yes, it's close enough. The difference is a small fraction of a dB.

[KarlXII]

Jim, how about a Super Thor featuring two W22EX001 and a T29CF002?
Does the larger Excel W:s also have the mean distorsion at higher frequencys?

[kram]

Sound Comparison

Well I couldn't stand it so I cut out of work to play with my new x-overs. I decided to tear down one speaker and do a side by side comparison of the x-overs. After spending quite a bit of time, I didn't really make the Thor's too easy to modify, I had them ready to compare. The very first inkling was that the original setup was more distinct, but after about 15-20 minutes and different music I realized the original setup was just louder (Jim, is the sensitivity a little better with the Madisound upgraded x-over?). The other thing is the tweeter is brighter on the original x-over (Jim mentioned I might want to try a 10 ohm resistor in the tweeter instead of the 9, but I did not, but may have to go back and change).
I spent the next hour doing right left comparisons on the two speakers with numerous types of music. When I got to classical (strings) I noticed the most distinct difference between the two x-overs, the soundstage on the new x-over is huge(I don't listen to classical, I had to seach to find some, lol) in comparison. The instruments were much clearer and it sounded as if you could actually hear different string instruments and the space between them, this was a VERY nice change in that aspect. As for the bass I have two subwoofers (had them turned off for the comparison) so I wasn't needing more bass. The new x-over does add more bass. The problem became once I hooked the subs back up I had too much bass and almost got a little "muddy"
I like the new midrange/tweeter sound so I swapped out the other x-over. I know they will need some break-in time, but at the moment I had to adjust the bass on my system to -50% and adjust my treble to +50% to get the clean sound and high end necessary. I may actually have to attenuate the Thors in the bass area a little bit (may try socks in the Thor ports). I had already built one of planet10's designs (and have two subwoofers) so more bass wasn't a big need.
Someone asked, would you do it again.................... in my case since I am going to build a pair of Odins for my rear surrounds and can use the x-overs out of the Thors, so yes I like the change............ Is the change that significant that I would make the change if I did not have a use for the x-overs........... that is tough. If you don't like the lack of bass in your current Thors and can not build the planet10 bass reflex design it would be worth the effort. If you like your Thors as I did, and don't have a use for the old x-over, probably not.
If you have any specific questions I can try to answer them. I do not have access to any equipment to check the speakers, so all I have is my personal listening.
Jim all future recommendations should have the 10 ohm resistor in lieu of the 9 ohm on the tweeter board, in my opinion.

[jimangie1973]

Thanks for the feedback.

I have some suggestions for you:

Currently you have a 2.5 Ohm in parallel with a 4 Ohm as the first series resistor in the tweeter circuit. Madisound is sending you a 10 Ohm to parallel to make it 1.33 Ohm as it should be (this will raise the treble level). I would try it with the 10 Ohm first (in parallel with the 2.5 and 4), if the treble level is still too low for you, switch the 10 Ohm and 9 Ohm resistors. This will boost the upper treble and very slightly raise the total treble. I would be very surprised if the treble level is still too low.

If you can move your boxes out from the wall a little bit, that would definately help. Are they rear ported? If so, they need to be moved out further to get prober bass response.

I don't think you need to run with subs on for music. The W18E in the 2cu/ft ported enclosure goes down to 30 Hz.

Lastly, buy a soldering iron if you don't have one. Soldering to those Madisound crossover boards is extremely easy. This will allow you to tweak to your preference to get the sound you want. Everyone has slightly different tastes. I will be happy to help you with any changes you desire. It's worth it to get what you want with expensive speakers as these are.

Hope this helps,
Jim

[kram]

Tweeks

The Madisound 10 ohm resistors arrived. That was the first thing I did was solder them to the 2.5 II 4 ohm resistors to get the 1.33 ohm total. I wasn't planning on working on them yesterday, but when the resistors arrived, well.........

I love the sound of the changes to the mids/tweets, it is only in the lower bass area they get a little boomy/muddy. They are rear ported. They area about 2.5 feet from the rear wall and it isn't really feasible to move them further out because of the TV/Speaker placement. I guess I am used to the clear bass from the W26/Focal W38. So all I really need to do is to attenuate the bass from the W18's just a little. I might have to order a couple more 10 ohm resistors to swap out with the 9 ohms.............

[jimangie1973]

The Madisound 10 ohm resistors arrived. That was the first thing I did was solder them to the 2.5 II 4 ohm resistors to get the 1.33 ohm total. I wasn't planning on working on them yesterday, but when the resistors arrived, well.........

I love the sound of the changes to the mids/tweets, it is only in the lower bass area they get a little boomy/muddy. They are rear ported. They area about 2.5 feet from the rear wall and it isn't really feasible to move them further out because of the TV/Speaker placement. I guess I am used to the clear bass from the W26/Focal W38. So all I really need to do is to attenuate the bass from the W18's just a little. I might have to order a couple more 10 ohm resistors to swap out with the 9 ohms.............

Just swap the 10 you just added with the 9 Ohm. Changing the 10 to a 9 makes an extremely small change from 1.33 to 1.314 Ohms. Also, this change provides a tiny increase in tweeter level which I think you want anyway.

Another thing, can you change the length of the port tube? If you lengthen it, the bass will be reduced. If you do this, you probably don't need the above change.

Jim

[Dennis H]

Kram, are you using the stock Thor enclosures? If so, they are less than optimum for bass although the complaint is usually about too little bass, not too much. Maybe the t-lines need more stuffing?

[kram]

Change

"kram,

What you may need to do with the new XO is to dial in the amount of baffle-step... (in your case less BSC will bring the top up relative to the bass)

dave"

This was a recommendation from Planet10............ I am not using the stock box, I am using one of his designs which gave me plenty of bass.

The problem maybe that the redisgned box added bass and the new x-over adds bass, so it is just a little too much.......... I may try to lenghten the port tube.

Any other recommendations?

Jim I will probably have to order a couple 10 ohm resistors..... when madisound solders the resistors they trim the leads, so it would be very tough to unsolder the 9 and use it in the parallel stack............ I may try lengthening the port first, I have some extra porting left over.

[jimangie1973]

"kram,

What you may need to do with the new XO is to dial in the amount of baffle-step... (in your case less BSC will bring the top up relative to the bass)

dave"

This was a recommendation from Planet10............ I am not using the stock box, I am using one of his designs which gave me plenty of bass.

The problem maybe that the redisgned box added bass and the new x-over adds bass, so it is just a little too much.......... I may try to lenghten the port tube.

Any other recommendations?

Jim I will probably have to order a couple 10 ohm resistors..... when madisound solders the resistors they trim the leads, so it would be very tough to unsolder the 9 and use it in the parallel stack............ I may try lengthening the port first, I have some extra porting left over.

Sounds good. Definately try lenghening the port tube. That should do exactly what you want.

Edit: I had another thought, just stuff a sock into each port tube to see if that fixes the bass issue. If it works, then lengthening the port tube will work also, but you'll still get the deeper bass with the longer port tube.

[jimangie1973]

Jim, how about a Super Thor featuring two W22EX001 and a T29CF002?
Does the larger Excel W:s also have the mean distorsion at higher frequencys?

Hey Karl,

It looks like it would work except I'm not sure about going from an 8" woofer to a dome tweeter. The off axis responses are so much different unless you cross over really low. Also, the CTC spacing requires a very low crossover point.

The breakup is at the same frequency as the W18 so the crossover could be very similar, if a 1600 Hz crossover isn't too high. I don't think you'd know until listening.

[Dennis H]

Siegfried Linkwitz uses 1440 with the W22 in the Orion MT section. Steve Dodds uses about the same for his Bob MTM section.

http://www.linkwitzlab.com/orion_challenge.htm

http://www.doddsy.net/steve6_009.htm

[kram]

Scientific Approach

Well after all the x's and o's all it took is a couple hand towels (medium, not wash cloths, not drying towels) stuffed into the ports to tighten things right up!!!! :W Sweet, now I have the clean spacious mid-bass and tweets with the tight bass back to match!!! LOL, maybe I should start a high end audio company selling "esoteric bass" equipment.

PS For only $100 a pair I have just what you need for nice clean bass, pm me and I'll give you my paypal addy, lol!!!!

[KarlXII]

Jim, Dennis: Interesting.
But if you crossover as deep as 1440 - how much power can the tweeter take?
Don't you get a mismatch where the bass section can handle like 400 watts, but the tweeter can only handle like 70 watts?

[jimangie1973]

Well after all the x's and o's all it took is a couple hand towels (medium, not wash cloths, not drying towels) stuffed into the ports to tighten things right up!!!! :W Sweet, now I have the clean spacious mid-bass and tweets with the tight bass back to match!!! LOL, maybe I should start a high end audio company selling "esoteric bass" equipment.

PS For only $100 a pair I have just what you need for nice clean bass, pm me and I'll give you my paypal addy, lol!!!!

Well I'm glad to hear you have found something that works. I have my ports stuffed too but my enclosures are only 1.2 cu/ft so I was getting a big bass hump with the bass reflex configuration. With your large enclosures you should be able to get a nice ported response by playing around with the port length.

Are you running an active crossover to your sub, or are you running the MTMs full range with the sub?


Karl: Your absolutely right about the power thing. That's probably another reason it's not done very often.

Jim

[KarlXII]

Karl: Your absolutely right about the power thing. That's probably another reason it's not done very often.

Jim

..which leads me into thinking TWO tweeters. :T
Or does that upset the D´Appolito principle?
What happens with the power response and sound dispersion?

[Dennis H]

Jim, Dennis: Interesting.
But if you crossover as deep as 1440 - how much power can the tweeter take?
Don't you get a mismatch where the bass section can handle like 400 watts, but the tweeter can only handle like 70 watts?

Thermal power handling is pretty irrelevant for both the woofers and the tweeter. Both are Xmax limited. The Millennium is a beast in that regard and has no problem crossing low.

If you crunch the numbers, there's very little difference between 1440 and 1600 in max system SPL at the XO frequency -- like less than 1 dB difference -- and the woofers would probably still run out of steam before the tweeter with most music.

[jimangie1973]

Thermal power handling is pretty irrelevant for both the woofers and the tweeter. Both are Xmax limited. The Millennium is a beast in that regard and has no problem crossing low.

If you crunch the numbers, there's very little difference between 1440 and 1600 in max system SPL at the XO frequency -- like less than 1 dB difference -- and the woofers would probably still run out of steam before the tweeter with most music.

Thanks for the info.

[Coconutout]

it's that time of the year again when i become restless with upgraditis. i currently have a pair of Statements but a buddy of mine is willing to pay a fair price for it. my dilemma is: should i go for sealed version of statements with bass bins or a pair of small thor and upgrade the crossovers later? thor would get a sonosub companion so it wouldn't be short changed in bass. thor- which is suppost to be one of the best DIY you can buy. and the statements- which is the best DIY i ever heard. i haven't heard the thors so i'm a bit torn here. whats appealing to me right now about the small thor is just that- small. i'm getting a roomate so i need to make some space. besides that, i really don't know. could you guys help me out? ;x(

[Jed]

Well if you like the Statements so much, which use the W4, and you need more space, that's pretty much what the Lineup Maxx, Maxx16, and Maxx5.8s are designed for.

I also have a MTMWWWW with Seas Excel W15s, Seas DXT with modified ferro motor, and a quad set of HiVi D5.8s in the works for this summer. Maybe we could collaborate on such a project?

That said I'm sure the Thor is a great speaker too but the 3-ways definitely have some advantages.

Jed

[John D]

How is this possible? The Thor with the original crossover sounds outstanding to my ears! Well, original... it has the original schematic, but two capacitor values for the tweeter are different, as proposed by Hobby Hifi (5.6 uF and 15 uF instead of 8.2 uF and 18 uF respectively).

I saw this pair offered on the internet at a good price, so I thought I'd check them out. Of course I compared them to my high-end dipoles. The Thors sound less natural and real, but do sound clearer. It is easier to hear the finest details. Although there has been a lot of criticism on both the Thors' crossover and its T-line tuning, I think they sound very good. It don't hear any harshness or anything else that hints at the break-up of the cones. They can play loud too! Their tonal balance seems natural to me and similar to the dipoles, but I must say I haven't measured them myself. Hobby Hifi magazine measured a relatively flat response with this crossover.

Now I must admit that I am using them with a subwoofer, so they don't have to handle the bass. I tried them in a large room and there the bass was good as far as I could tell from the short time I listened to them there. However, they are in a smaller room now and supplemented by a subwoofer with an active crossover at 80 hz for both the sub as the Thors.

Am I just deaf or could it be that the Thor isn't as bad as is suggested by some people? I might try Jimangie's crossover some day. The measurements look good and simulations on the basis of his measurements showed not too good results for the crossover in my pair. Anyway, I'll do some measurements soon.

What are your thoughts?

[jimangie1973]

It looks like the mod you made to the Thor crossover makes a nice improvement. I've attached what my simulation gives for your mod verses the original Thor crossover. Your mod is in blue, the original is in red.

If you're happy with it, why change it?

Jim

[kram]

Thor's

The Thors do not sound "bad", in fact they are just about the best bang for the buck you can get................ they match and sound better than speakers costing SEVERAL thousands and if you look at Tyler Acoustics he is basically selling Thors(with markup)............. but as with anything I loved them so much I wanted to see if they could even be tweaked more and was excited to try Jim's upgrade. One big note, I was planning on building a set of Odins anyway (rear surrounds) so I figured I could use the madisound upgraded x-overs in the Odins.............................

Jim's tweeter x-over section makes a definite improvement and makes the Thors sing even sweeter, but be careful if you have already upgraded the Thors to one of the "better" box designs like I had the new bass x-over tends to overpower the highs, at least in my box. I also use a subwoofer so extra bass was not needed............. if you have ever heard the statement that the "music is in the midrange" you will love the new upgraded (jim) x-over.............. but again be careful with the bass.

[JohnyHiFi]

shunt cap value

I was about to build my new crossovers to replace the original Thor crossovers when I noticed I accidentally orderd 4.7uf caps for the tweeter instead of 4uf. Does anyone know how much of a difference this will make? To make up for the different value, could I use a 9ohm resistor instead?

On another note, although I am planning on rebuilding my Thor cabinets as well using the small thor plans, I have managed to get some good bass performance out of the Thors by taking out half of the original amount of stuffing. I now have 200 grams in the front and 170 in the rear. It made a huge difference!

[jimangie1973]

Re: shunt cap value

4.7uF will work fine. You may even find it preferable because it will add a little over a 1/4 dB BBC dip. I would go with the 9 Ohm in series with the cap.

Jim

[JohnyHiFi]

Thanks Jim! As soon as I have a chance to put the crossovers together and try them out, I will post what I think of them. I have had my Thors and original crossovers for a few years now...the comparrision should be quite interesting!

Ken

[tktran]

Hi Jim,

I sent you a PM regarding your XO redesign.

Did this come through?

regards,
Thanh.

[Bill Fuss]

Hi All,
I have just registered on this forum so now I can post on this thread. I've been building electronics for a few months, but I'm glad to see this thread still alive. With a tremendous amount of help from Jim I completely converted my Thors. I had built the original cabs with removable bases so what I did may not be possible for some to pull off.
My first big change was the move to Jim's xover, which was a huge change in the mid-bass area, but the xover point became very suseptible to sibilance. I naturally suspected the tweeter circuit and started tweaking around on my own, with no real success.
The next big change was converting the cabs to ported by closing off the TL opening, cutting many large windows in the TL divider, and adding a 3" vent to the bottom rear. The tuning should be done to taste and room dims, mine ended up 6 3/4", but everyone has different tastes.
What was immediately apparent was the dissapearance of the harshness I got when I switched to the new XOs. Apparently the TL divider was bouncing sound back through the cones, and I suspect the old XO must have been nulling most of it because it wasn't a problem before.
I returned to Jim's XO design verbatum and all is well, actually fantastic!!! The tweeter level tweaks can be done to taste, and the XO transition is seamless, with no trace of sibilance or harshness.
Thanks again to Jim and if anyone needs any more info dont hesitate to ask.

Best, Bill

[Bastek]

Would be great to see some pics of what you did internally, and the new look of the cabs.

[Bill Fuss]

The cabs looks didn't change at all, I basically used the TL baffle inside as a brace instead of a partition, cutting as many holes in it as I could reach with various tools such as a right angle drill, sawsall and a small sabre saw. It's by no means pretty in there but I took out over 50% of the partition, making sure to remove it behind the drivers.

Bill