Three Way Evil Design Study

[TacoD]

Yes, those are the Aurasounds that were tested and recommended. I have stocked up on the Accuton c24-6 (C30N-6-24) and C90-T6 (C173N-T6-90) for this project. I have a pretty good budget for this so I may go with the Eton 12-680 Hex woofers. My design will include 2 woofers per side.....
For price versus performance though, you really can't beat the Aura's.

Nice Isis clone, wait for the new Eton woofers. When I contacted them a couple of months ago they told me they are launched in March/April.

[Jed]

Nice Isis clone, wait for the new Eton woofers. When I contacted them a couple of months ago they told me they are launched in March/April.

What size woofers? They only told me they will have 2 new woofers.

[ThomasW]

I have my doubts that ET will be interested in using Eton woofers, but I shouldn't speak for him since he has a propensity to get a little testy at times.....

[Evil Twin]

I thought in the previous posts that the C90-t6 was ruled out due to the limited HF and that the leaning was towards the C79 or C89. With the Etons, do they have low enough HD and enough xmax to be viable?

Essentially none of the midranges evaluated have the bandwidth to be used in a Duelund style crossover- in practice, the useful upper range of the C173N-T6-90 is about as high as the smaller units, because of the rise in resonance amplified HD- these points all suggest about 2 - 2.5 kHz. The first crossover attempt I plan will be somewhat similar to the Arvo Part three way in general topology.

Though I have working experience with a number of Eton woofers, I will require convincing evidence of a strong value proposition to consider them in this three way system. That said, I respect the personal choice and inclinations of others that I have not yet been able to bend to my will... let them be the one to purchase and evaluate the new Eton's as they become available.

The current 12-680 is not a competitive solution in my opinion, having about half the Xmax of the NS12, though it does improve somewhat in performance over it's predecessor, the 11-581. Neither have particularly stellar distortion characteristics in the upper midrange- due to cone resonance amplification of harmonics.

I expect Eton has been driven by their OEM customer requirements to come up with a more competitive solution- but do you believe it will be offered at a comparable or lower price than the 12-680? At $439 per 12-680, one can purchase two NS-513A and pay the shipping and a modest dinner out... and have nearly four times the swept Vd available.

In the case of this three way design study, the preferred route was a somewhat more compact configuration, with a modular approach to the midrange/trebel head unit, using removable panels, with the possibility to update the design with out building new cabinets.

But I encourage all to consider and explore there own concepts and implementations. That is where the "Y" comes in.

[tyler]

What size woofers? They only told me they will have 2 new woofers.

I heard the same.

[TacoD]

tyler, considered Eton. I know that Jon prefers Aura. For me in the Netherlands Aura is also quite expensive >270 euro, but still cheaper than Eton .

[tyler]

tyler, considered Eton. I know that Jon prefers Aura. For me in the Netherlands Aura is also quite expensive >270 euro, but still cheaper than Eton .

I was thinking of the Eton's but have not made a final decision yet.........

You might still see dual Aura's in my bass cabinets.

[chasw98]

I expect Eton has been driven by their OEM customer requirements to come up with a more competitive solution- but do you believe it will be offered at a comparable or lower price than the 12-680? At $439 per 12-680, one can purchase two NS-513A and pay the shipping and a modest dinner out... and have nearly four times the swept Vd available.

What do you eat for dinner ET?

[tyler]

I thought in the previous posts that the C90-t6 was ruled out due to the limited HF and that the leaning was towards the C79 or C89. With the Etons, do they have low enough HD and enough xmax to be viable?

If you review the thread... ET will be publishing a recommended crossover for the C90-T6 and the Dual Aura configuration.

Because of the modular construction planned for the midrange enclosure, the C90-T6 (the old Accuton part number for that driver) can be measured and included as an option. It's greatest advantage over the C89 is the ability to play louder, with lower overall distortion. A duel NS12-513A crossover desgin will be published, with the C90-T6, but probably not built in the Imperial labs- this is where the "Y" in DIY comes from.

[JonMarsh]

Illegal bump. Five yard penalty on Moderator.

Oops... not that season yet.... :W

[Jed]

Illegal bump. Five yard penalty on Moderator.

I spent some time reviewing this thread and there is a lot of information to digest about different configurations, crossover types, and suitable drivers for 3-ways with the Duelund crossover approach. From what I can gather, you will be designing several variations on these themes with different budgets in mind.

The first possibility, at least from what I have deduced, is an update of the M8ta, using the RS225, RS52, and possibly the Visaton Ke25. Next up from the stockpile of tested drivers, and to further explore the science and/or implementation of Duelund crossover execution, will be a new M10ta which will use the Dayton Rs270, Tangband 4" titanium driver, and ?? for a tweeter.

Then, for the ultimate "box" 3-way concept there is the Aurasound NS12 513 4a, Accuton C89, and Accuton C24- used in a modular cabinet called the M12ta. This cabinet will be similar to the M10ta, just have a removeable head unit to swap out and test various drivers.

Edit: This replaceable head unit will allow implementations such as C90/C24 combinations with possibly an updated Uber lower box unit housing dual 12" aurasounds.

Now, don't forget the center channel to match this system, even though all of this will probably end up as a bedroom speaker. :B For center channel duties dual RS225s with Accuton C79 midrange and C13 for tweeter duties. The Accuton loudspeaker system will extend beyond certain capabilities developed by a mysterious manufacturer with faceted bevels; a manufacturer deeply influenced by Jon's first speaker with monolithic like structure and sculpted front baffles. In other words they will blow away most speakers costing 20 grand.

So how close is this "summary"?

Now, all we need to do is set up a speaker building fund so Jon and Thomas can quit their day time jobs and work on all the above projects to meet the September 1st deadline. :W

[tyler]

Because of the modular construction planned for the midrange enclosure, the C90-T6 (the old Accuton part number for that driver) can be measured and included as an option. It's greatest advantage over the C89 is the ability to play louder, with lower overall distortion. A duel NS12-513A crossover desgin will be published, with the C90-T6, but probably not built in the Imperial labs- this is where the "Y" in DIY comes from.

You forgot to mention that the C90-T6 will be an option along with dual 12's, for those of us who want maximum SPL's w\low distortion.:B

[Jed]

You forgot to mention that the C90-T6 will be an option along with dual 12's, for those of us who want maximum SPL's w\low distortion.:B

How could I forget that one. 8O Edited the post to include that combination.

[Evil Twin]

I spent some time reviewing this thread and there is a lot of information to digest about different configurations, crossover types, and suitable drivers for 3-ways with the Duelund crossover approach. From what I can gather, you will be designing several variations on these themes with different budgets in mind.

The first possibility, at least from what I have deduced, is an update of the M8ta, using the RS225, RS52, and possibly the Visaton Ke25. Next up from the stockpile of tested drivers, and to further explore the science and/or implementation of Duelund crossover execution, will be a new M10ta which will use the Dayton Rs270, Tangband 4" titanium driver, and ?? for a tweeter.

Then, for the ultimate "box" 3-way concept there is the Aurasound NS12 513 4a, Accuton C89, and Accuton C24- used in a modular cabinet called the M12ta. This cabinet will be similar to the M10ta, just have a removeable head unit to swap out and test various drivers.

Edit: This replaceable head unit will allow implementations such as C90/C24 combinations with possibly an updated Uber lower box unit housing dual 12" aurasounds.

Now, don't forget the center channel to match this system, even though all of this will probably end up as a bedroom speaker. :B For center channel duties dual RS225s with Accuton C79 midrange and C13 for tweeter duties. The Accuton loudspeaker system will extend beyond certain capabilities developed by a mysterious manufacturer with faceted bevels; a manufacturer deeply influenced by Jon's first speaker with monolithic like structure and sculpted front baffles. In other words they will blow away most speakers costing 20 grand.

So how close is this "summary"?

Now, all we need to do is set up a speaker building fund so Jon and Thomas can quit their day time jobs and work on all the above projects to meet the September 1st deadline. :W

A cogent and complete enumeration on your part...

The first priority is completion of the CAD drawing for the M12ta bottom unit, and completing it's construction, followed by a midrange/upper range test head- with the removable front panel, a variety of midrange and treble units can be tested and evaluated without generating a host of test cabinets. Fortunately most of the driver units being considered are already in the Imperial inventory, which should provide some speed and flexibility in evaluations.

[ColoradoTom]

A cogent and complete enumeration on your part...

The first priority is completion of the CAD drawing for the M12ta bottom unit, and completing it's construction, followed by a midrange/upper range test head- with the removable front panel, a variety of midrange and treble units can be tested and evaluated without generating a host of test cabinets. Fortunately most of the driver units being considered are already in the Imperial inventory, which should provide some speed and flexibility in evaluations.

I'm picking MDF in a variety of thicknesses this weekend and will be cutting and glueing rough dimensioned panels over the next couple of weeks. Hoping that I can get something in a prototype state by RMAF.

Tom

[Evil Twin]

I'm picking MDF in a variety of thicknesses this weekend and will be cutting and glueing rough dimensioned panels over the next couple of weeks. Hoping that I can get something in a prototype state by RMAF.

Tom

That is a most interesting possibility to consider- given the long overdue Imperial Leave I have scheduled, the possibility exists that data and proposed filter designs will be simultaneously prepared in several quadrants- a sharing and refinement of information could be mutually beneficial.

As a number of panels have been prepared at this manufacturing site for future cutting and assembly, there is no doubt that there should be time to complete some initial constructions and evaluations. The possibility of new tooling systems is also being considered, though viable and more capable alternatives have yet to be discovered.

Perhaps if Captain Needa can successfully complete a re-alignment and calibration of this manufacturing station's cutting facilities, new equipment will be unnecessary. I'm sure we can find a way to suitably motivate his efforts...

[chasw98]

Perhaps if Captain Needa can successfully complete a re-alignment and calibration of this manufacturing station's cutting facilities, new equipment will be unnecessary. I'm sure we can find a way to suitably motivate his efforts...

And Tom.... please remember what happened to poor Captain Needa.

"What's worse, failing Darth Vader or having to apologize for it? Captain Needa was in that most terrible of positions when his Star Destroyer, the Avenger allowed the Millennium Falcon to escape pursuit after the Battle of Hoth. "

And then!
"Vader accepted Needa's apology ... and killed him. "

Hopefully ET is more forgiving!

[ColoradoTom]

As a number of panels have been prepared at this manufacturing site for future cutting and assembly, there is no doubt that there should be time to complete some initial constructions and evaluations. The possibility of new tooling systems is also being considered, though viable and more capable alternatives have yet to be discovered.

Perhaps if Captain Needa can successfully complete a re-alignment and calibration of this manufacturing station's cutting facilities, new equipment will be unnecessary. I'm sure we can find a way to suitably motivate his efforts...

New developments from the inhabitants of the Festool System that have aligned with the annual celebration of my birthdate have indeed given rise to a new tooling system called TS 75.

The following specifications look most impressive: :E

The TS 75 plunge-cut saw will enable you to cut through your workload like never before. Take on bigger projects with our largest cutting depth yet - 2 15/16" or 2 3/4" with the included guide rail. And with 13 amps of adjustable power, the TS 75 has plenty of muscle to spare - powerful enough to cut through steel doors. And it won't tire you out as quickly since it weighs less than 14 lbs. A limit stop and slip clutch drastically reduce the effects of kickbacks, making the TS 75 much safer to use.

Delivery of this new tool will be within the week and testing will commence over the next several weeks. With a few simple jigs and the advertised depth cut of 2 3/4" the proposed cabinet 2" sides and 6" front should be a managable process. Additionally, having used the rail guide system in the past, highly accurate and repeatable cuts can be made with the invisioned jigs.

Tom

[tyler]

New developments from the inhabitants of the Festool System that have aligned with the annual celebration of my birthdate have indeed given rise to a new tooling system called TS 75.

The following specifications look most impressive: :E

The TS 75 plunge-cut saw will enable you to cut through your workload like never before. Take on bigger projects with our largest cutting depth yet - 2 15/16" or 2 3/4" with the included guide rail. And with 13 amps of adjustable power, the TS 75 has plenty of muscle to spare - powerful enough to cut through steel doors. And it won't tire you out as quickly since it weighs less than 14 lbs. A limit stop and slip clutch drastically reduce the effects of kickbacks, making the TS 75 much safer to use.

Delivery of this new tool will be within the week and testing will commence over the next several weeks. With a few simple jigs and the advertised depth cut of 2 3/4" the proposed cabinet 2" sides and 6" front should be a managable process. Additionally, having used the rail guide system in the past, highly accurate and repeatable cuts can be made with the invisioned jigs.

Tom

Another option for cutting the baffle edges is the Hitachi C12LSH 12" sliding miter.



Of coarse these can also be done on a 12" left tilt table saw.

[JonMarsh]

I've got one of the slightly older 10" Hitachi sliding miter saws, it's a beaut for some jobs, but can't cut in both tilts.

My BT3100 still seems to be the best low cost solution, as it can manage 3-1/2" deep vertical cuts, it just requires careful jig design. When I was shopping for saws, it was hard to find a 12" that would beat it significantly, that's primarily because of the unusual pulley and arbor design, which gives more working room from the 5" radius than typical designs.




Shhhhh! Don't tell anyone I use inexpensive tools when I can get away with it! :roll:

[Jed]

Unfortunately, my b-day was in May so I won't be getting any of those hi-tech saws.

Here's the one I'll be using.

Image not available

:lol:

[JonMarsh]

A classic, Jed!

Reminds me of the days in my early 20's when I would build folded horn bass cabinets just using a saber jig saw.... just takes patience and a steady hand and sharp eye!

[Evil Twin]

I spent some time reviewing this thread and there is a lot of information to digest about different configurations, crossover types, and suitable drivers for 3-ways with the Duelund crossover approach. From what I can gather, you will be designing several variations on these themes with different budgets in mind.

The first possibility, at least from what I have deduced, is an update of the M8ta, using the RS225, RS52, and possibly the Visaton Ke25. Next up from the stockpile of tested drivers, and to further explore the science and/or implementation of Duelund crossover execution, will be a new M10ta which will use the Dayton Rs270, Tangband 4" titanium driver, and ?? for a tweeter.

Then, for the ultimate "box" 3-way concept there is the Aurasound NS12 513 4a, Accuton C89, and Accuton C24- used in a modular cabinet called the M12ta. This cabinet will be similar to the M10ta, just have a removeable head unit to swap out and test various drivers.

Edit: This replaceable head unit will allow implementations such as C90/C24 combinations with possibly an updated Uber lower box unit housing dual 12" aurasounds.

Now, don't forget the center channel to match this system, even though all of this will probably end up as a bedroom speaker. :B For center channel duties dual RS225s with Accuton C79 midrange and C13 for tweeter duties. The Accuton loudspeaker system will extend beyond certain capabilities developed by a mysterious manufacturer with faceted bevels; a manufacturer deeply influenced by Jon's first speaker with monolithic like structure and sculpted front baffles. In other words they will blow away most speakers costing 20 grand.

So how close is this "summary"?

Now, all we need to do is set up a speaker building fund so Jon and Thomas can quit their day time jobs and work on all the above projects to meet the September 1st deadline. :W

As this deadline is looming rather close now, it seems less and less feasible.

However, work is proceeding, even if only at the pace which a Hutt can run.


The most challenging philosophical question is whether it will be possible to adhere to a Duelund approach, or if driver limitations will dictate a more pragmatic approach.

A proposed Duelund target response for Accuton C89 or similar will be evaluated soon.



My schedule has been cleared for the first week in September - only this matter shall occupy my time and attention.

[Jed]

As this deadline is looming rather close now, it seems less and less feasible.

No pressure.

Obviously the Dark Lord does not fear the possible repercussions this may have on the collapse of the time continuum, even while his use of the force maintains equillibrium, those weaker in seeking the truth fall victim to the loose illusion of time contraints. Urgency?.... there is nothing so urgent as the completion of the Death Star, and it takes time in its execution. In the end, the loudspeaker just a distraction from the true goal-there resides world dominance within his grasp.

[FrederikCaroe]

As this deadline is looming rather close now, it seems less and less feasible.

However, work is proceeding, even if only at the pace which a Hutt can run.


The most challenging philosophical question is whether it will be possible to adhere to a Duelund approach, or if driver limitations will dictate a more pragmatic approach.

A proposed Duelund target response for Accuton C89 or similar will be evaluated soon.






My schedule has been cleared for the first week in September - only this matter shall occupy my time and attention.

A very doable Duelund could be:

Scanspeak 9300
Monacor SPH 130
2x Scanspeak 21W/8554-00

The 9300 is the only driver Duelund used stock.

[TacoD]

Why not use the 9500, 9700? The 9300 isn't best sounding driver of the 9xxx series. Actually I would suggest the Scanspeak 6600.

[FrederikCaroe]

Duelund found the 9300 with something he termed the air filter to be the best sounding non-modded ScanSpeak tweeter. If you believe otherwise, that is of course fine. Steen did use a lot of different ScanSpeak tweeters.

[seeker]

Is this a worthy bump or not?

The dilemma:

I'm leaning towards starting on the sealed Statements with integrated sub ala'
CBS, only with a 10" or 12" instead of a 15" subwoofer.

On the other side of the fence is the M12ta 3 way design study. (I dream of cutting those facets on my Rockwell 12/14.)

Either way, the design will follow a Sonus Faber Cremona look (my wife loves that look----and I do too).

I've been following the agonizingly slow (have mercy on me Dark Lord) M12ta development since its inception. It's just such a beautiful, classic design. And imagine those slopes and facets in a Sonus Faber wrap.

Should I wait for the M12ta design, or can I do anything with the design as it stands, or just go with the Statements?

(I'm not so much in a rush to hear something as I am to start building something.)

Any opinions/advice appreciated. Thanks

PS--I love Bach on organ

[Jed]

You should know that the M12ta is probably not going to come around for a LONG time because of Jon's work schedule. Thomas mentioned that Jon hasn't even had time for laundry, let alone speaker building.

Which version of the M12ta were you thinking about? Accuton or Budget?

I'm getting ready to publish/post my Aurasound NS10, Accuton C79, Visaton MHT12 design.... well maybe by the summer. It will have the Avalon facets.

I was playing some Oscar Peterson through the prototype design, and I could have sworn he was right in the room with me. Pretty scary real. I've worked on this system for over a year now. It has been one of the most difficult speakers to design, but I think in the end it will be extemely rewarding. :B

[seeker]

You should know that the M12ta is probably not going to come around for a LONG time because of Jon's work schedule. Thomas mentioned that Jon hasn't even had time for laundry, let alone speaker building.

Which version of the M12ta were you thinking about? Accuton or Budget?

I'm getting ready to publish/post my Aurasound NS10, Accuton C79, Visaton MHT12 design.... well maybe by the summer. It will have the Avalon facets.

I was playing some Oscar Peterson through the prototype design, and I could have sworn he was right in the room with me. Pretty scary real. I've worked on this system for over a year now. It has been one of the most difficult speakers to design, but I think in the end it will be extemely rewarding. :B

Wow, that's a fast reply.

Jed, thanks for letting me in about Jon's situation. I actually got to meet him during the RMAF, and what was he doing? soldiering crossovers while conversing!

I was thinking more on the budget side of the M12ta project, but your Duet10 Accuton version sounds very promising.

You describing the sound of Oscar Peterson makes your design tempting—he’s my favorite. One thing that’s holding me back on the Statements a bit is the vertical axis on the tweeter (I like to sit and stand when listening, and not be in a fixed position).

On your prototypes do the MHT12’s have a limited vertical window? Would that window on a wwmt be larger than on a wmtmw due to lobing?

(Of course, I realize some trade-offs in all designs)

Thanks,

PS another tempting fact http://www.madisound.com/catalog/pro...products_id=79

[Jed]

Hi,

My 3 way is a WMT design. The crossover points are around 350hz and 3.9K. The Visaton MHT12 is similar to a ribbon tweeter, but in my application, I don't have to worry about spacing midranges far apart, which would otherwise create some vertical lobing issues with that high of a crossover point. Listening off axis has been fine, in fact I swear their is someone playing in the room when I'm even 2 rooms over.

The downsides to this 3-way is the cost of the Accuton C79 midrange, and the Visaton tweeters. It is oviously a much better value proposition to use something like a RS270, TB W4-1337, and Fountek CD3.0m. However, I have the former hi-end parts and want to max out the design to reach their true potential.

One of the obstacles is getting the C79 to be flat up to 4K. I've come very close but it hasn't been an easy driver to shape its FR. It also is tricky on the low end, but I think I have that section of the crossover just about perfect.

[johngalt47]

What happened with this build?

[Evil Twin]

Pressing matters in the Imperial Remnant dictated that it be "put on the shelf" and held in abeyance. It is now being reconsidered, based on the work in progress on a somewhat smaller project, the "Ardent". Pending the successful completion of the Ardent, which is expected to be realized by late September this year, development of this larger project will likely resume, under code name "DeathStar". Some design parameters have been modified from data presented in this thread to date.

So far, the SDX-2 Ardent is proceeding on close to the planned schedule, with detail finishing and veneering of the recently assembled cabinets under way.




This smaller project is being used to test and assess design and construction technologies - which are gating issues regarding the feasibility of construction of the larger system. Additional technologies will be required for the larger system, but our information gathering network and Industrial Technology Transfer specialists have been successfully resolving key issues- we have a confidence factor moving forward of about 85% now.

[CraigJ]

With regards to the proposed low frequency alignment, these plots should be sufficiently informative...







With a nominal room boundary lift of 6 dB in the low freqeuncies, in room response per cabinet at 1meter will comfortably extend to 20 Hz at over 106 dB. Perhaps not capable of reproducing the full effect of the main drives of a fleet Stardestroyer as heard in the engine room, but it should be sufficient for most music applications.

The 76 liter bass enclosure will have a width of 14.5", a net cabinet height of 36", and a depth at 90 degrees to the front or rear panel of 18". The midrange unit has a net height of ~ 16", for a total height of ~52".

This partial screen shot should convey the concept....

Hi,

Was there ever a "top" designed for this?

[fjhuerta]

I have to say - even though this thread is a couple of years old, it was definitely my inspiration for my latest build... thanks Jon!!!!

[JonMarsh]

Hey, that's great, Javier!

It's been a bit of an inspiration to me to get back going on some things- especially to finish up the Ardents and either do the rebuild on the Modula Xtreme cabinets, as planned, or take that back a bit in the direction of this original concept, more of an Isis inspired design.

I need to do the Ciare Tweeter/Jantzen waveguide evaluation, then consider top module design options, then decide which way I prefer to go- and whether doing another Avalon style design even larger is feasible.

I like the final variation on your crossover- this is a nice job with the RS270 and these mids, makes me thing about doing something similar with the that driver, though maybe a weirder cabinet of course (I have a reputation to live down to...)

~Jon

[Face]

I have to say - even though this thread is a couple of years old, it was definitely my inspiration for my latest build... thanks Jon!!!!

Same here.

Image not available

[JonMarsh]

Those really are looking nice, Mike! Gives me some thought about how to do the upper modules if I decide to completely redo the Modula Xtreme cabinets!

I have ordered two more of the 8 ohm aluminum Illuminator woofers- and got a new rabetting bit in for tweaking the cabinet rebates. Hard to find time for this- a lot of travel coming up, the East Coast next week, then to Villach Austria HQ on the weekend for a week.

[Fishy]

Same here.

Image not available

Wow, do those little floor standers sound as nice as they look? ;x(

Fish

Edited to ask, what model are they?

[Face]

Those really are looking nice, Mike! Gives me some thought about how to do the upper modules if I decide to completely redo the Modula Xtreme cabinets!

Thanks Jon!

Wow, do those little floor standers sound as nice as they look? ;x(

Nope!

I've taken measurements and have a rough crossover simmed, but have been sidetracked by other things around here lately. I hope to get back to them soon.

[Fishy]

Face, what model are they? I cant find them looking thru the different missions accomplished.

Thanks
Fish

[Face]

My own.

[Chancellor]

These ramblings now seem somewhat quaint with the passage of time, yet there are indications in the Force that this may be an opportune time to revisit and embolden the concept.

New construction materials are on the way from Dagobah, and special assembly space has been leased in a nearby orbital station. Basic preparations are nearing completion.

Perhaps it is now finally time for the DeathStar to be fully realized...

[Evil Twin]

Construction materials arriving from Dagobah

I have word via the hyperspace relays that the freighter from Dagobah is in orbit now, and will deliver the organic construction materials to the new orbital facility tomorrow.

We have taken ruthless security measures to be sure the plans for this new DeathSTAR will not be intercepted by "dissident elements". There are some details still being finalized, but component fabrication should begin quickly, my master.

[Chancellor]

Everything is proceeding as I have foreseen...

Everything that has transpired has done so according to my design.

This new construction will be a major effort, but once successfully completed, it could be the last. All that we have learned in the Force must be brought to bear for it's successful realization...

You have your assignments. Do not disappoint me. Now go!