Building In-Khan-Neatos for the living room

[Steve Manning]

Hmm, I did evaluate building a jig. I saw some example before I started, but those often involved using wheels and was quite a bit more complex than what I felt was necessarily.
The one you linked to seems much easier. There is however some issues with getting this to handle the shape of the speakers, both when laying down and when standing up. The current method went quite fast - so for this build I will just stick to the manual way.
Will be a bit of bondo work together with the template to get it correct, but I hope and think it will be quite OK.

But thanks for the input. I will take that with me for later usages. If I had routed the plates before attaching them to the speakers I think it would be quite easy to follow that method.

For a little additional info. if you ever go this route, this video http://www.thewoodwhisperer.com/vide...ap=1&apt=video has a good idea with adding rails to the carriage that the router would sit in. You could clamp the rails to the sides of you cabinets and away you go.

Of course the way your cranking out these speaker projects, you may as well go all the way and get a cnc router.

[TEK]

I think I'd go with two coats of epoxy instead - the first to seal, since mdf will soak up quite a bit. Be sure to wash with water and an abrasive pad between coats to remove the amine blush. Do this before sanding as well or you will clog up your sandpaper in no time. I'd be concerned with epoxy to shellac bond.

Thanks Bob. I think I agree with you on the concern about the bond between shellac and epoxy. I'll follow you advice.

[TEK]

Of course the way your cranking out these speaker projects, you may as well go all the way and get a cnc router.

I would, if it was not so much work to build it ;-)
Will evaluate that again after the other projects are done :-P

[knowledgebass]

If you apply the epoxy coats during the gel time you don't need to sand between coats. The epoxy I am using has 24 or 48 hours. I've found that light scraping on the really high spots followed by wet sanding (400x) works better than attacking it with coarse paper (150x) which clogged readily on me.

On applying the epoxy I have no real advice. I've read that epoxy application tools work well but I don't have one. I had fairly good luck with an old kitchen spatula (rubber) but it eventually broke up. Wood worked but didn't leave as nice a surface. Epoxy will sand down very flat. Two coats should give enough coverage to get it all level. If you are planning to paint, you can tint the epoxy with milk paint powder (mix in the resin before adding hardener) or aniline dye.

[BobEllis]

Good point, KB. I'm usually off to something else after applying so I forgot about that. If you don't wash the blush off it will clog sandpaper horribly. Scraping may remove it as well, which may be why you had good results with higher grit paper. It's so easy to wash off with a little water and a ScotchBrite pad that I just do that.

[Renron]

Tek,
You are an amazing fellow. Lots of speaker building experience.
(Epoxy Ellis) .... What is epoxy blush?
Ron

[TEK]

Not much progress going on.
Have been occupied with assembling and setting up a Intel NUC pc that my wife just got for the livingroom. Impressiv little thing.
(it's a big matchbox - but still, this thing has a lot of performance for it size.
Full HD out (x 3 I think, 3.2ghz cpu, 16Gb ram running at 2033hz and a kick ass 512gb superfast ssd disk.


Also, my wife birthday is on 23. of desember - so that kindof take up some time. Present, familiparty and so on.

But I was able to sneek away and also update my ild htpc computer.
I installed a semi fanfree psu (the fans will only run at high loads), upgrade it from 3 to 8gb og memory as well as exchange the graphic card to a newer one.
I also upgraded the fans to more silent fans (it's running a quad core q6600 cpu so I must have some fan - but I have several and all is running on slow fanspeeds.
Of course there were some problems. Also, switching the psu require all cables to be swapped - abd it all takes some time

Now the chrismas eve is here and there relaxed christmas feeling is here.


(About the direction of the picture: :stupidpc:


Happy chrismas to all of you from Norway!

[BobEllis]

Amine blush is a film that firms on the surface of epoxy as it cures. If not removed it prevents adhesion of subsequent applications of epoxy and gums up your sandpaper like you won't believe. If follow on epoxy is applied while the surface is still at the gel stage you're ok. Fortunately its water soluble and easily washed off. I found out about it reading Gougeon Brothers' website.

[dar47]

Mary Christmas to all from Canada and since we are going with puppies and trees here is mine.arty:



Image not available

[bigjohn]

I had to jump on the Merry Christmas to all!! and puppies train as well arty:
I tried to get one like this with all the dogs:



This is the best I could do, the dogs were too interested in the snow:

[TEK]

Have to include some cats also then ;-)

https://www.facebook.com/elin.kolloen/videos/10153174925657413/

[TEK]

OK, no some progress.
I have sanded down the rounded areas and added boundo to get it even.
Then I have just applied one coat of epoxy.
Very easy to work with and very little smell. Used 5 pumps pr. speaker.





I do not know any way to clean the foam roller - so I consider it a one time usage.
Anyone know if it migth be cleaned.

[BobEllis]

Rollers and brushes are single use. At least you can use cheap ones. Not sure what solvent to use if you want to try but it's bound to be nasty. I cleaned up polyester resin with acetone as a kid. Practically bathed in the stuff. Guess I'm lucky to be healthy. :roll: ops:

[TEK]

Bigjohn and dar47, nice dogs :-)
Looks like both of you live in places with a lot of green area around you. Reminds me about home in Lofoten. There were always 200-500 meters to the closes house and we children could always run around as we liked.
Now I have been lucky enough to have a small forest/free are just above our house, but we live very close to a city so we have houses close onto us at all other sides of the house, and a road with quite a bit of traffic just 100 meters down from the house.

Back on track then...
I just sanded down first round of epoxy and applied another. I did not notice any kind of blush layer, so sanding was quite OK with little clogging of the paper. I'm still impressed about how little smell there is from the West System Epoxy.
Second round of sanding tonight or tomorrow (probably tomorrow)

BobEllis, may the blush be dependent on the type of Epoxy used?


These speakers will be hanging on the wall. I'm thinking that they will hang "on" the wall, and that there will be almost no distance between the wall and the speaker.
I will add a 3mm soft seal between the speaker and the wall. This is for two purposes. To give room for wiring and to ensure that there is no vibration between the speakers and the wall.

Now I have to ask for some help and input.
Can anyone give me some advice about how I can attach them to the wall?

[BobEllis]

Nice progress, TEK. I suppose the blush quantity has something to do with cure temperature and humidity. I've used WEST system with lots of sandpaper clogging. This time I'm using TotalBoat, wich is Jamestown Distributors house brand. The sandpaper clogging is the same as I remember it wit WEST System. After a bond failure with my first veneer application I've been careful to wash the surface quickly and have had no clogging or bond issues.

Time to get back to it after one more party.

[Renron]

photos







My Christmas photos, a little late, but so was Santa.
Dog is Kyra, photo from mid November, yes, they are delicious.
Backyard photo, notice the ice on the pool, I'm glad I shut it down earlier last month. The Solar heater is not going to help. :rofl:
This last photo is a Tornado which went by on the day before Christmas, about 150 yards away..........too close for comfort, damaged a few houses nearby.

Bob, Thanks for the Epoxy blush explanation.

Ron

[TEK]

Ron, nice pictures.
Where do you live? There seems to be a strange combination of plants, some of them I would not to see together with snow...

Good thing that you have those sun-chairs out and ready, looks like they will be used a lot ;-)

[csmielke]

Ron,
So you must live in Miss., Alabama or Georgia based on the weather. I am in the Columbia SC area and we had a tornado warning in our area later that same day. Also, weather was in high 70s to low 80s. I wanted to go sailing on Xmas but the family still says no. One day though.
Chris

[dar47]

WOW, daughter left NY with 22 deg. C and said as soon as the she got off the plane here the cold at her feet was all to familiar, haha

This is a warmer winter!

[Renron]

I live in California, near Lake Tahoe ~2,000 ft Elevation. We get snow almost every year, thou it doesn't last long. Yes, it is a weird mix of plants.
Trying to grow fruit trees is a challenge, Plum tree produces so much fruit that even after the birds eat their fill and we give lots away, there is more than we can eat. (blessed)
I think I just killed my Avocado tree, the wind blew the cover off it last night..........bummer......
Dar47, That's cold!
Tek, What's your average winter temperature?
Ron

[TEK]

Normal average winter temperature here is about -2 to -3 degrees Celcius.
Today we have had around -10 all day, wonderful winter day :-)

A lot more details here:

http://m.yr.no/place/Norway/Sør-Trøndelag/Trondheim/Trondheim/statistics.html

Edit: We are near the cost, and the golf stream moves up the cost of norway and causes our cost climate to be mild and wet. It's much colder when you get further into the country.

[TEK]

Not to nice outside today...


So, it's a nice day to get some base coat on those speakers :-)
Glasurit car paint. First some filler. Nasty stuff, so protection gear is needed.



My DIY "paint booth"

[TEK]

Base coat on - looking pritty good.
Sanded the epoxy with 120 and 180 paper.
Now I will sand final round with 320 or 400 I think.

During readup I see many using like 500+ paper quite early in the process. I think that is waste of time. The filler will handle the sandpaper marks from 180 without any issues. To fine paper to early takes extra time and might also cause the paint to not stick propely...

[TEK]

I really like that smooth feeling of the base coat when it's ready for the top coat. To think that this just a while back was a dull square piece of MDF, and now it's this soft rounded pice that is just sooo smooth to the touch :spin:

[BobEllis]

Nice work, TEK. At least one of us is making progress.

[cjd]

I like the spray booth! Does it work well enough? I'll be wanting something like this, I'm afraid. Thinking I just need to install proper extraction in my workshop though...

Looking really good though.

[TEK]

Thanks Bob

Yup, it's moving forward. Got some paint on today.
The baffel has got one layer of waterbased metallic gray, followed by two layers of clear coat.
The speakers has got two layers of a white color from BMW (saw a BMW with a white color that I liked and got them to mix that for me).

And this is the result straight off the gun. Laying to dray now. I will await rubbing and polishing to after new years eve, as we are going away to some friends tomorrow.






What is not showing on these pictures is that I have a mistanke in the metallic on one of the baffels. I got some dirt in it and try to sand over it before adding the clear (the guy in the shop told me that should be ok to do). Guess what, it was not OK. So, instead of having a tiny dust pice in the metallic I now have a area on the size of a large coin that is different.
Wife says that she will be nagging me more on getting the front covers done if I just leve it as that than if I fix it.
I have more of the metallic, but not clear - so I will have to get that to fix it.

Not that sure if wife nagging me to go down and do stuff in the woodshop is a good or bad thing :W
You do know, it's not like she nessesarly know what I'm doing down there ... arty:
Think I will have to evaluate how to play this one out :stupid:

[TEK]

I like the spray booth! Does it work well enough? I'll be wanting something like this, I'm afraid. Thinking I just need to install proper extraction in my workshop though...

Looking really good though.

Yes, it's working pritty well as long as I ensure that I do not use to mutch pressure (get extremly mutch overspray).
As long as I take a bit care of that, and don't do to large stuff it's working really well. There are a bit of fumes outside the booth (but that is also from me mixing paint and cleaning stuff), but no paint outside the boot at all.

I use two kitchen fan. One that draws are into the booth (on top at the front of the booth) and one that draws are out of the booth and outside. I got the fans for free from electrical trash on the dump - everyone getting a new kitchen switches out their fan and just throw away old ones. By using two fan I can deside if I want positive or negative pressure in the both.
In front of the fans, both intake and excaust, I have paint filters of the same type used in actual paint boxes. Both a full role when I first planned this. That is quite important as it both stops dust from entering the booth, and - more important - it keeps paint inside the booth so that paint wont be spread around at the outside when it exits the booth.

The booth itself is made from pvc pipes that holds the plastic, except from the front wall that is made from wood.
I have a old heat fan that I put on top of the air intake if I need to race the temperature. Using that on full power and I can bake the painted stuff at a whopping 40 degrees ;-)

The excaust fans stands on a day or so after painting to get fumes out of the room as the paint gives off fumes for some time while it dries.

Equal setup with more powerful/larger excaust fan, and maybe just positioned before the door out would probably be even better.

[---k---]

Nice progress.

[TEK]

Thanks k.
Did a small test assambly to get an impression if how they will look...

[Steve Manning]

Nice combination of colors TEK .... I used a BMW grey when I had my Jensen speakers painted.

[sdl2112]

Beautiful work TEK :T You are moving right along.

A have always liked white...one of these days I'll have to do one.

[Renron]

Tek,
STOP it! your making the rest of us look bad!
You sure do nice work! Those are professional looking. Great color choices, My son's got an M3 , same white. Fun car......
Plus you keep on working when it's cold finding ways around the problems. I salute you!
Ron

[TEK]

Thanks for the kind words Ron :-)
I was a bit concerned about the cold wether, have been warned against that before. However with my regular heater fan either blowing directly into the air intake of the booth (if I want mutch heat) or blowing into the room (if I want more even heat) it has been no problem at all.
I should note that my basement wood shop has 10cm isolation on the outside of the cement wall. And the half wood wall is 25cm and filled with isolation, and the houses technical room that also generates some heat is in a corner room of the same room also generate some heat.
This means that I have hood control of the heat as well as how much outside air I let into the room.
But I have to agree, I think that the white (a bit offwhite) and the dark gray metallic seems to work wery well together.

[TEK]

Happy new years day from norway :-)

[Renron]

Wife kicked you outside again huh?


Are you using the same speed thinner as with your Ardents? Meaning the reducer, slow (hot weather) , medium (warm / average weather) , fast for (cold weather) , slowing it down by mixing a slower speed reducer might help with the minor orange peel. It would take longer to dry though, and you would get more runs / sags in the finish.
They sure are beautiful, very good looking speakers Tek!
Ron

[TEK]

I used fast hardener this time, mostly because I had some left.
Have some normal as well - but I have good temperature control so I can get the temperature inside the booth that I need. Targeting a temperature of approximate 21 degrees C.

But isn't fast for cold and slow for hot wheater?
Had no problems neither with orange peel or runs this time around :-)

But I have decided to redo one of the baffels as the marks after me trying to sand off some dust before doing the clear coat is showing much to well. But it will be quite quick. First a light rub-down, a thin coat with waterbased metallic and finally two coats of clear. The whole process should be doable in a hour or so...

[Renron]

Thanks for catching that Tek,
Yep, I was thinking cure time and writing reducer temp times............I got them mixed up. Good catch. I have corrected my post so anyone who reads this in the future will have the correct speed / temps.
Your work is excellent, I wouldn't even think of spraying in the snow weather. No offense meant with the minor orange peel comment above. I know when it's off the gun it takes time to flow out.
You are correct, you cannot sand a metallic base coat and not have it show. Flakes have been disturbed and it will always show.
Ron

P.S. you can mix reducer temperatures / speeds, if they are the same brand

[TEK]

Ron, I have to say that first I did not quite catch up. I did think that I had very little orange peel.
But, you are (as always) right. There are some orange peel. But not mutch and I'm feeling very confident that it will be easly handled when I start buffing them. But you do have a point. I might have done even better - maybe using a tiny bit more thinner - or, slower hardner, or laid it on a bit thicker.
The smaller gun delivers quite little material - and at the same time I'm a bit worried about laing it down to thick so that I get runs. No runs at least, and I think I laid it on pritty thick. Also, the larger gun (the Iwata w-400) does give a mutch better result off the gun - but for these small speakers it delivers to mutch to fast and I would have got a lot of overspray and at the same time it would have been a bit challanging to get the edges good - I think.
I little buffing and polishing and I think these should turn out darn close to perfect ;-)

[TEK]

OK, It's crossover time and I need some input on a small matter.
I have this resistor (brand new). It has something uneven in the surface.



When I measure it with my multimeter is mesure 2.7ohm. That's exactly the same as the other one that does not have something uneven in the surface.
Should I worry about this? Might the resistor fail after some time? If it fails (it's part of the tweeter crossover) what may the consequences be? May the tweeter be on risk of beeing destroyed afterwards?
Ordering a new resistor will cost and take a long time to get delivered. Changing it later on will be quite easy. So the probability for it to fail as well as the possible consequences of it failing is importent factors for me to consider.

Any toughts?

[sdl2112]

It is likely only cosmetic. You might try placing it across 1 or 2 1.5V batteries (or power supply if you have one) for a few moments to cycle it and see if the value changes...it will go up a little with temperature. If it is the resistor in series with the tweeter even if it did somehow short, that tweeter would just play louder...should cause no damage.

[TEK]

It is likely only cosmetic. You might try placing it across 1 or 2 1.5V batteries (or power supply if you have one) for a few moments to cycle it and see if the value changes...it will go up a little with temperature. If it is the resistor in series with the tweeter even if it did somehow short, that tweeter would just play louder...should cause no damage.

Thank's, I have tested and found no difference. If it's no danger for the tweeter if it should be able to short I'll just go on.

[cjd]

As far as I know, the good parts are all inside a shell in these resistors, so that's nowhere near the critical parts - it's 'just a little sawdust that was in the air when it was painted' (or some such) and they're not one to fuss about it. I know it's not really panited, and it's probably not sawdust, but... should be juuust fine.

C

[---k---]

I think I should start requiring payment on the designs CJD and I have developed. Acceptable forms of payment are making my future speaker boxes for me, or doing the finishing work. Wow. I'm embarrassed by my work! But they sound great.

As far resistor goes, I agree with the others. Looks like the paint got dirty or dripped. Doesn't look like anything to worry about. I just want to mention that resistors are probably the easiest part of all to source locally. I know your in Norway and might have more limited options. But, resistors don't need to be anything fancy. You can probably get them from some non-traditional sources. I got a box of 0.5, 1, 1.5, and 2 ohm resistors that aren't audio grade or marketed as such, but work just fine. Everyone always recommends such for final tweaking / voicing for your preferences or driver tolerances or next project. You may just use them to try out, hear the difference, and then go back to without. I've done that many times. Might want to start looking around so you have them when you need them.

[Renron]

Tek, your spray quality is damn near flawless. I will be happy if I can match your finish / lack of orange peel. I agree, better than getting runs or sags in the paint / top coat.
Looking very very professional.
CJD, it's not sawdust , it's tortilla scraps.
Daughter in law is mexican, I can joke.
Ron (the cracker)