Hypex NC400 Build

[dar47]

Wow Ben turned out so nice. :T

Now you add the M12 and your done! Maybe you can will me your spare parts so I can build one before I have to will my stuff to you. :roll:

Did you turn it up? I bet the Ardents are loving more then your 50 watts from the receiver?

[JonMarsh]

Looking very nice, Ben! I bet you're glad to have this together now! :T

[TEK]

Very nice!
Looking very good together with that nice speaker to the right also ;-)

Btw: how is the listening expression?

[Carl V]

agree you did a nice job on
both amps & speakers. What
type[e of burlwood did you use?

Hypex amps are clean & nice.

[benthe8track]

I think I'd be willing to go along with her, whether I fully agreed or not! If the blues don't match exactly, then having a white would be better esthetically.

Hmmm, I got an interesting request dropped in my lap yesterday- to prepare an SMPS power supply with our parts to match up to one of the IR Class D modules, and to have this ready by the August FAE training. And they want the controller to be our XMC ARM based micro. And because technically everything above 75 W SHOULD have PFC, though this is ignored for audio most of the time, this is really a combo of PFC front end and a PWM isolation/regulation stage, with all the doodads needed to keep a Class D setup happy- I.E., prevents pumping of the unloaded supply rail, possible requirement for clock synchronization (though many of the IR reference designs don't have a way to do this- there are self oscillating designs, but only 2nd order, so are not truly fixed frequency- just as the Hypex aren't.)

Expect to have a big discussion about this today with my boss- that's a very tight schedule, and would require dropping all other activities to have any hope of pulling it off. And there are other concerns, including issues of code re-use and licensing. OTOH, I finagled my way into finishing the Application note for the one LLC reference design we have running, which has an alternative controller running our XMC, but the code was developed by a 3rd party vendor. Depending on the terms we agreed to, this could be tricky.

It's a shame the IR designs are about 10x the distortion and noise of Hypex nCore, even though they are popular on the DIYAUDIO forum. Of course, that's not terrible, means they might be 0.01% where Hypex is 0.001%. But that first 25 watts just isn't quite as nice, though it is pretty good. If this does get off the ground, I'll have to look into the idea of making the design and interface compatible with Hypex modules. My boss doesn't know anything about Hypex, or that they even exist. I'm sure Jun Honda does, though...

This could be awkward... but interesting.

Oh, and is it making waves on the scope yet? Or sound through a speaker (use inline fuses for first tests!)

Today I'm going to try to figure out which of the IR modules is most electrically similar to the nCore 400. :W :B

Sounds like an interesting project, although I have to say this is all I could think of when reading this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLDgQg6bq7o

[benthe8track]

Thanks for the kind words folks!
Carl V that's walnut burl.

As far as listening impressions go, it made a BIG impact in my modest system. I'm still using an early 2000s Harmon Kardon AVR as the pre (and up until yesterday for power as well).

I think the biggest difference is at low volumes, so maybe there is something to this "first watt" stuff. I'm sitting here listening to Miles Smiles on my RP6 and all those audiophile buzz words (which I typically think of as dumb) are popping into my head. The sound stage and and little subtitles have snapped into focus. Bolstering my opinion of this upgrade was the wife making an unsolicited comment on how much the sound has improved. If going from little two ways to the Ardents was a quantum leap, this is an improvement is a (quantum leap)/2. If that makes sense.

I see used monos go for about ~1300 USD from time to time and I think at that price they deserve careful consideration, especially if you are coming from crappy gear like me.
Next up is adding an M12 to see what adding a quality DAC will do to the digital side of things. Maybe a high end phono stage further down the road.

[JonMarsh]

Hey, wow, I got one of the first 100 Turbo Encabulators via a Kickstarter project! Glad to see it's getting more notice world wide- the potential range of applications is just Ginormous! :W

Actually, going through a bunch of the IR reference designs, it looks like the sweet spot minima for THD+N is around 0.02% on most versions. Given the THD+N slopes, I suspect part of the problem is the noise performance of the summing comparator- that's a really critical part of designs like this, because basically the Class D amplifier is just a big ass switching opamp, and the front end comparator is like the front end of an op amp.

BTW, LLC is a multi-resonant variable frequency SMPS converter that uses two L's (inductors) and one C (capacitor) to define the resonant tank network, though in more advanced designs the C is split in to two parts and located differently from a typical LLC.






As you might imagine, there are many ways to tune or mistune the design of the resonant tank- LLC's are like Spiderman- "With great power, comes great responsibility (complexity)". But done right, the resonant switching provides low EMI, high efficiency, and the capability to operate at high frequencies with high power density.

Welcome to my Day job, where I play a power conversion systems engineer on TV. :W

[JonMarsh]

I assume you are referring to what appears to be a mostly empty bottle of Stella Artois?

but of course!

[JonMarsh]

Thanks for the kind words folks!
Carl V that's walnut burl.

As far as listening impressions go, it made a BIG impact in my modest system. I'm still using an early 2000s Harmon Kardon AVR as the pre (and up until yesterday for power as well).

I think the biggest difference is at low volumes, so maybe there is something to this "first watt" stuff. I'm sitting here listening to Miles Smiles on my RP6 and all those audiophile buzz words (which I typically think of as dumb) are popping into my head. The sound stage and and little subtitles have snapped into focus. Bolstering my opinion of this upgrade was the wife making an unsolicited comment on how much the sound has improved. If going from little two ways to the Ardents was a quantum leap, this is an improvement is a (quantum leap)/2. If that makes sense.

I see used monos go for about ~1300 USD from time to time and I think at that price they deserve careful consideration, especially if you are coming from crappy gear like me.
Next up is adding an M12 to see what adding a quality DAC will do to the digital side of things. Maybe a high end phono stage further down the road.

It makes a lot of sense- and I agree with your comment about things snapping into focus- even compared with the Cambridge Audio 840W, it's like going from a decent zoom lens to a high end prime. As you improve your front end, I expect this will become even more apparent.

[5th element]

Wow that power amp turned out looking really nice. It's not often that you see something as nice as this, it was worth putting in all the design effort and planning at the start.

I am glad that they sound great too. As far as class D goes, you don't really get much better than the ncores and it's also nice when your S.O recognises the benefits of your upgrades too.

[JonMarsh]

A little more nCore related feedback: there's an album by a gal called Alice Gomez; she does kind of South Western/Native American inspired new age stuff (at least that's how I'd classify it)- it's something GF had in her little stack of CD's to play in the bedroom for going to sleep music, and I liked it, so put it on my phone and iPad, too. Of course, on one of those little music docks, the sonics aren't exactly stellar, but hey, it's to fall asleep to.

I played this once on the Isiris, and noted how well recorded it is (actually, kind of typical for new age stuff, most of the time). But, based probably equal parts enthusiasm and possibly faulty memory, but also amplifier performance, I believe the current setup with the M22 on the Ardents beats the Isiris with the Cambridge amp and electronics running back then- which was using the TotalDAC-D1 as preamp, instead of the new Cambridge, which didn't have the DCD-8 reclocker and rubidium oscillator. So, not really a fair match, but I DID listen to this recently with everything the same except the amp, and this amp is definitely a keeper if you want clarity and presence! I expect your nCore setup is, too. Don't render final judgement on it until you've upgraded your source gear, though.

I expect if you go with the M12, you'll be pretty pleased- I'd expect it to match the M51, as I believe the architecture is based on the same Zetex chip set co-developed with NAD.

[benthe8track]

A little more nCore related feedback: there's an album by a gal called Alice Gomez; she does kind of South Western/Native American inspired new age stuff (at least that's how I'd classify it)- it's something GF had in her little stack of CD's to play in the bedroom for going to sleep music, and I liked it, so put it on my phone and iPad, too. Of course, on one of those little music docks, the sonics aren't exactly stellar, but hey, it's to fall asleep to.

I played this once on the Isiris, and noted how well recorded it is (actually, kind of typical for new age stuff, most of the time). But, based probably equal parts enthusiasm and possibly faulty memory, but also amplifier performance, I believe the current setup with the M22 on the Ardents beats the Isiris with the Cambridge amp and electronics running back then- which was using the TotalDAC-D1 as preamp, instead of the new Cambridge, which didn't have the DCD-8 reclocker and rubidium oscillator. So, not really a fair match, but I DID listen to this recently with everything the same except the amp, and this amp is definitely a keeper if you want clarity and presence! I expect your nCore setup is, too. Don't render final judgement on it until you've upgraded your source gear, though.

I expect if you go with the M12, you'll be pretty pleased- I'd expect it to match the M51, as I believe the architecture is based on the same Zetex chip set co-developed with NAD.

If you have it ripped dropbox me that tune. Are you still using the TotalDAC with the Cambridge? That Cambridge was on my shortlist if it only did analog like the M12! I'll pay 3k for an M12 but not 4. Calgary shops seem really disinterested in my haggling as well so it may be a while before I get one. If something else out there that fits the bill exits I'd be happy to look at it but I think that M12 fits the bill perfectly.

[JonMarsh]

I'll do that this evening, and send you links.

The Cambridge preamp I'm using is the newer 851e, and I'm quite impressed with it functionally, sonically, and build quality. It's a significant step up for them at the same price. I'm using a preamp because my colleague and i both picked some common material to test with and without a preamp, versus using the TotalDAC as the volume control, and concluded that though the TotalDAC sounded quite good at low levels using it's own volume control, compared to many other setups or DACs, it was better using a high grade preamp and running the TotalDAC at full level all the time...

In your case, the flexibility of the M12 would be a big plus for what it costs, over an M51 and a Pre, which would make things rather pricier.

Yeah, I'm still using the TotalDAC-D1 Dual (full balanced version) with the M50 front end feeding a DCD8 in reclocking mode- I plan to get the Mutec in the system soon, because it does automatic sample rate tracking, whereas the DCD8 must be switched manually.

[wkhanna]

Sorry if this is a derail, but I am uncontrollably compelled to share.....

Dan (PewterTA) just added the Mutec MC+3 clock & bi-directional USB MC-1.2 to his system utilizing the M51 DAC.

I just got to listen to it this weekend for the first time.
I am sold on the high accuracy re-clocking.

My theory is that your brain can finally relax & allow you listen without having to subconsciously reconstruct the digital signal to eliminate its inherent timing errors.

We hope to have the rubidium master clock implemented soon, which should add another level of 'smoothing'.

To my ears, the more accurate timing was immediately perceptible in bass as any previous smearing due to inaccurate timing made it sharp a samurai's edge. It is not so much an increase in transient impact as it is the realistic 'snap' that defines percussive musical instruments.

And yes, there were details that emerged, but in a somewhat subtle way that created intermittent but consistent epiphanies of real instruments in the room.

I could really pinpoint it in the previously undetected textures of Jimmy Cobb's snare on 'Blue in Green' from our 'Kind of Blue' 94k rip we have that was made from vinyl.

Amazing stuff!

[JonMarsh]

Yup! Not surprised to hear what you describe, and it should get even more in focus when you add the Rubidium clock.

I plan to switch to the Mutec soon, and also need to hook up the analog supply I bought from the UK to try out with the oscillator. I'm just so pleased with the M22 nCore that I'm savoring this level of improvement before moving on to the next... if that makes any sense!

I've got a zip file of the test uploaded to DropBox, and as soon as I find Ben's email again, will send him a link.

I'm having a bit of fun now, because I'm typing and posting on the net result that we contributed to by 1-1/2 years of work in a couple of labs in Cupertino. I opted for the "gold" with the fasted BTO processor and larger SSD- it's great to have a full size keyboard with backlit keys on something about the same weight as an iPad Air with Clamcase Pro keyboard case.

[wkhanna]

Yup! Not surprised to hear what you describe, and it should get even more in focus when you add the Rubidium clock.

Dan only has ~ 30 hours on the MC+3, so there should be more in store from some more time on the unit, too.

I'm having a bit of fun now, because I'm typing and posting on the net result that we contributed to by 1-1/2 years of work in a couple of labs in Cupertino. I opted for the "gold" with the fasted BTO processor and larger SSD- it's great to have a full size keyboard with backlit keys on something about the same weight as an iPad Air with Clamcase Pro keyboard case.

Nice!
You definitely earned it.

[benthe8track]

A few little updates.
I used a little relay as the 12v trigger and it worked until I went to work then my wife informed me the amp stopped working. Thankfully it was probably just the little relay because it fired up when she used the push button.
As a stop gap I used a 12v wall wart with a 1/8" jack to trigger the amp from the switched AC output on the old AVR. When I tested the wall wart it gave somewhere between 12.5v and 13.5v. I wonder if continued over voltage killed the relay? Any recommendations for a more robust relay that still has a small current draw for the coil?

And some good news--I got a smoking deal on an NAD M51 so it should be waiting for me when I get home. Looking forward to seeing what the fuss is all about. After looking for M12s for a few months I couldn't find on for the price I wanted to pay. So used separates seems to be way more value. I'm looking at some Bryston pre-amps amount others. Would give me an all Canadian stereo by accident--or Commonwealth anyways if you include the Rega haha.

[JonMarsh]

Remind me what part you used, and I'll look for something on eBay. coil relays are not sensitive to having a little more coil voltage than needed, so this shouldn't be an issue- could just be infant mortality. What's the current available from a normal 12V trigger?

[benthe8track]

This is the one I used:

http://www.digikey.ca/product-detail/en/EC2-12NU/399-11029-5-ND/4291095

Right now I have go up to 1A but the lower the better as typical pre-amps are 100mA total load and I'd like to be able to trigger more things in the future.

Going to give this one a shot:

http://www.digikey.ca/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&itemSeq=172394710&uq=635674722233174490

[JonMarsh]

How's this working now? Are things ironed out? What do you think of the sonic performance?

[benthe8track]

Turns out it was the wall wart I modified to act as a 12V trigger from the switched output on the amp was culprit and not the relay. I've since switched the system to use the M51 as the pre-amp and wow what a big difference! If moving from the AVR to the hypex was a huge leap forward in focus adding the M51 was about twice that. It's actually shocking how good the Ardents are with some better equipment in front of them.

It's difficult for me to evaluate the sonic characteristics of an amp that is supposed to get out of the way. That being said I love the setup right now, just need a pre-amp so I can use the turntable again.

[JonMarsh]

I've since switched the system to use the M51 as the pre-amp and wow what a big difference! If moving from the AVR to the hypex was a huge leap forward in focus adding the M51 was about twice that. It's actually shocking how good the Ardents are with some better equipment in front of them.

It's difficult for me to evaluate the sonic characteristics of an amp that is supposed to get out of the way. That being said I love the setup right now, just need a pre-amp so I can use the turntable again.

Bravo- good things to hear, not surprising given my experience with the M51. It was my reference while developing the Isiris speakers.

What my colleague in Munich was telling me, and I agree, that as good as digital volume controls can be (such as in the M51, or my TotalDAC D1, or the Auralic Vega), there is some compromise in presentation and sound field when you start using more than 10-15 dB of attenuation- particularly at 30-40 as is common for much of listening. In this case, a good preamp makes a significant difference in the noise floor and the presentation of the digital playback.

I don't know where the right performance spot or performance level is- that is, for example, the minimum to consider. I remember in the 90's trying out a lot of commercial preamps to find something that would match my home-brew setup, but offer all the inputs and convenience features- while not costing a total fortune or using vacuum tubes. There was one Sony ES stereo preamp I ended up buying a couple of from the Sony outlet store- surprisingly good performance, and the right price.

These days I'd suggest looking at the Cambridge 851e and other similar pieces- its got a lot of useful performance features, and it's pretty transparent. I expect there's a "basic" line control center preamp available somewhere with comparable sonics for half the price, but I haven't been keeping up with that stuff enough to know...

And did you notice that mono sub output? :W It's either flat summed mono or with a nominal 12dB/octave 200 Hz roll off. Possibly just the thing for adding some rumble below 40 Hz with an outboard crossover and amplifier.

Unfortunately, I don't believe any input is a phono input, but then that gives one the opportunity to incorporate your favorite stand alone phono preamp, and run the line output into the 851e. All of the input names are customizable.