Wavecor Ardent Journal - the first Builds

[JonMarsh]

Well I'm sold
Haha yeah I took a look at Deulund, a 10uf cap is almost $500. Even with the MR it looks like the Xover is "under budget" at ~$1400. Do you anticipate any more tweaking of xover components with the grille felt? I'm thinking of ordering from one of the stores shortly.

Building up the grille and felt tweaks is my first task after Starbucks on Saturday morning. I don't anticipate changing anything in the existing crossover. IF, for some reason, we needed to pull down the top end above 8 kHz, all that would take is adding an R/C zobel at the output to the tweeter; it would likely be something like 10 ohms + 1 uF. I'll do a sim just for fun today, maybe at lunch. But my experience with grille cloths and also Stereophile's measurements on the Indra show we "should" be fine with the grilles in place, as regards measured response.

in my own listening with the TC Konnkt 8 Firewire audio interface (used for measurement), which uses the same JET PLL firewire interface chip as the Weiss DACs, it doesn't sound hot to my 63 year old ears, but I'm sure you get the qualification in that statement. I think the bit of a bump in the response around 16-17 kHz is due to reflections from the inside of the grille panel- which actually was installed for all the previous month's measurements. I like installed being just the magnets hug it firmly in place! :W

SO, I should have some time to work on the second cabinet this weekend- while GF's away, the mice will play. It would be a good stretch goal to have both put together and assembled by next weekend.

I also have a new Cambridge Audio 851e preamp on the way- my colleague in Europe/partner in audio crime was demoing at home a Pass XA100.5 and Cello Chorale Preamp, thinking he would likely just take the Pass amp, but in the end he found he preferred the Cello in the system, especially for listening at low to moderate levels, which with the TotalDAC alone uses 30 dB of attenuation, but with the Cello Preamp it can be set for nominal output, and attenuate analog. He previously had another high end preamp, for which the TotalDAC by itself seemed superior. So, I'm going to try the new version of my favorite budget preamp, the older Cambridge Audio 840e (I have one, but frequently have problems with the relay ladder volume control at the higher gain settings- need to send it in for work. The new 851e uses an R/2R multiplying DAC as a precision variable resistor/attenuator for an electronic volume control with high precision, and it overall has the distortion performance also improved by an order of magnitude, plus three balanced line inputs- it's my kind of configuration- as long as it sounds good!

It's not audio jewelry, but if it sounds good in the system, I'll be happy.

[benthe8track]

Building up the grille and felt tweaks is my first task after Starbucks on Saturday morning. I don't anticipate changing anything in the existing crossover. IF, for some reason, we needed to pull down the top end above 8 kHz, all that would take is adding an R/C zobel at the output to the tweeter; it would likely be something like 10 ohms + 1 uF. I'll do a sim just for fun today, maybe at lunch. But my experience with grille cloths and also Stereophile's measurements on the Indra show we "should" be fine with the grilles in place, as regards measured response.

in my own listening with the TC Konnkt 8 Firewire audio interface (used for measurement), which uses the same JET PLL firewire interface chip as the Weiss DACs, it doesn't sound hot to my 63 year old ears, but I'm sure you get the qualification in that statement. I think the bit of a bump in the response around 16-17 kHz is due to reflections from the inside of the grille panel- which actually was installed for all the previous month's measurements. I like installed being just the magnets hug it firmly in place! :W

SO, I should have some time to work on the second cabinet this weekend- while GF's away, the mice will play. It would be a good stretch goal to have both put together and assembled by next weekend.

I also have a new Cambridge Audio 851e preamp on the way- my colleague in Europe/partner in audio crime was demoing at home a Pass XA100.5 and Cello Chorale Preamp, thinking he would likely just take the Pass amp, but in the end he found he preferred the Cello in the system, especially for listening at low to moderate levels, which with the TotalDAC alone uses 30 dB of attenuation, but with the Cello Preamp it can be set for nominal output, and attenuate analog. He previously had another high end preamp, for which the TotalDAC by itself seemed superior. So, I'm going to try the new version of my favorite budget preamp, the older Cambridge Audio 840e (I have one, but frequently have problems with the relay ladder volume control at the higher gain settings- need to send it in for work. The new 851e uses an R/2R multiplying DAC as a precision variable resistor/attenuator for an electronic volume control with high precision, and it overall has the distortion performance also improved by an order of magnitude, plus three balanced line inputs- it's my kind of configuration- as long as it sounds good!

It's not audio jewelry, but if it sounds good in the system, I'll be happy.

Very cool. So you're saying ideally the grille should take the top end down a bit and running them without should just brighten them up a bit?

I've been thinking about my upgrade path lately I'm starting to lean towards just running a 2.1 setup in the new place. Instead of trying to do a bunch of things it maybe better to do more with less. Aesthetically it would be a lot cleaner without having speakers everywhere, which an open concept condo doesn't work particularly well. So I'd love to hear your thoughts on that Cambridge. Looks like it would be around 2k retail? I wonder how that would and a M51 would compare to the new M12?

[JonMarsh]

Very cool. So you're saying ideally the grille should take the top end down a bit and running them without should just brighten them up a bit?

I've been thinking about my upgrade path lately I'm starting to lean towards just running a 2.1 setup in the new place. Instead of trying to do a bunch of things it maybe better to do more with less. Aesthetically it would be a lot cleaner without having speakers everywhere, which an open concept condo doesn't work particularly well. So I'd love to hear your thoughts on that Cambridge. Looks like it would be around 2k retail? I wonder how that would and a M51 would compare to the new M12?

Yeah, that's how the tweeter thing should work. got side tracked into work yesterday, called in to the lab, so I'm a day behind!

I hear you about the simplicity of 2.1, and that's what I've normally run at home. I ordered this one from Amazon, with a sort of odd setup- sold by one company, fulfilled by Amazon (no sales tax) and with my Amazon prime, free 2 day shipping.

As to how that would stack up, an M51 plus the Cambridge, versus M12, that's a interesting point- but it should do well, based on my colleague in Munich's feedback about running the TotalDAC-D1 mono into the Cello Preamp and Pass amp he just got, versus running straight into the pass amp. He had previously noted a different in sound quality running direct into the JL Signature amp (which he still has- his wife didn't want him to sell that... ) when turned up to say , -10dB, which is quite loud in his Munich condo. It was more than just volume, he said, and he attributes that to not having the gain set to -25 or -30 dB and throwing away the difference between 24 and 16 bits. I have no idea if that is really the case, but in the end, he found he head better imaging and low level detail running into the preamp and with the TotalDAC gain set to full, even when listening at fairly quiet levels. This is what has prompted me to get hold of the best "cheap" preamp with balanced connections out there (I have older Cambridge audio preamp that sounds very good, but needs service because of an issue with the relay based volume control- the new one is solid state, and even lower distortion overall).

So, the potential issue in this light, for quieter listening, if my friend's evaluation and theory is correct, possibly running even the M51 at greatly reduced gain (direct to amp) may not be optimum (it may still sound better than a lot of other gear or having a sub optimum preamp) and the same would apply to the M12, as the use the same Zetex chip set developed in cooperation with NAD.

So, I hope to have some time next weekend to do some careful level matched A/B listening, though I can't switch on the fly. I also have a bunch of stuff here for setting up the new subnetwork for the audio gear, including a new Airport Xtreme as a bridge router, a bunch of premium CAT7 cables, and two NAS to shoot out (the LaCie I'd bought and not yet setup, which could be switched to data/backup usage) and a QNAP HS-120, with a couple of 2.5" SSD drives for a fanless NAS, a configuration recommended by the designer of the TotalDAC to us. (he's pretty good about responding to emails... customer service is also a cornerstone of his business, not just great hardware).

And I still haven't setup my new REM-8's. (a topic I shouldn't bring up, I suppose). And the concepts for the next monster system are coming along well, including some driver test builds which will be ready to start shortly, but that I'm going to have to sub contract to the dark lord. Perhaps he will have time... :W

And Friday I was told that I would 80% likely have to travel to Munich the following week on behalf of our Cupertino customer to get some special eval parts to do testing on- he wants to stay and do the testing in Munich, but frankly we can be more efficient here, and going there during the middle of Octoberfest without advance flight tickets or rooms booked would be a night mare (I've done it once before) and is not something I intend to attempt. This guy at the customer is something of a drama queen and seems to try to create scenarios to bring himself to the attention of his management- he doesn't realize that this can often backfire (it has in the past).

[JonMarsh]

OK, got a bit more done today... first off, the externally mounted caps on pigtails are now in the crossover box, and I upgraded the mid shunt cap from a Standard Z to a Superior Z. SO go sue me....

Next, I reconfirmed the 1meter and 1.5 meter response with the grille on, and for grins, also with the grill off. As different as that looked, though it worth recording and posting here:




Notice how much the response above 4 kHz changes, and the different in flatness of the range above 10 kHz.


Now here's the response with the grille panel in place, but with a new felt ring assembly cut to give a moderate size opening, but using a softer felt that I have, quite a bit softer than the material you guys had for the grill panel. The opening size was determined by gradually opening it up from a small diamond until the response curve looked smooth but minimally attenuated. I will add a picture of that to the post later, but I'm short of time right now.



Here's what that looks like:




This last one is with the grille cloth stretched onto the frame (I such at doing it with the screen door cord, though I was sucking less towards the end)

This is measured at both 0 degrees and 10 degrees. We still have some rise at 0 degrees, but I think the 10 degrees looks pretty nice (15 is essentially identical) and that could probably be considered the design axis, as you'll hear that more (including in the power response) than the exact on axis response.




And for direct comparison to the last measurement post, with 1/6 octave smoothing.



Here's the speaker with grille- the grilles need a bit more work- :W



If you really want to knock the top end down a bit, it can be done easily, but I like what I'm hearing here, and I didn't like the original Ardent version on the top with the "expensive" cloth dome tweeter.

Once again, I wish I could get you this one track from the cuban CD GF brought back- I've found the same song listed on a number of other artist CD's, but they aren't anywhere near as good a performance or recording. I wish I could set it up so this was the first thing you heard when you hook up yours finally... (Hmmm, Drop Box? ) Of course, you may not even like Latin music- it's not normally a big deal for me, but this is a cool cut. Think something close to big band, but Latin.

OK, it's after dinner, and I've moved one of the Isiris back out of the way- and plugged the Ardent into the big system.




Oh mama! :yeah: :dancenana:

Same Cuban cut, "Hoy Se Cumplen Seis Semanas", and I thought it sounded good earlier this afternoon, but now it sounds like it's been completely remastered in 24/192, and sounds considerably more fleshed out and organic (there's a reason I love my TotalDAC-D1 Dual).

Gotta get the other crossover finished up, and the drivers loaded, and see what these things sound like in stereo. Definitely gotta get this cut to you guys, too, perhaps a few others. Just for fun. :B

Spinning a few other cuts for fun off the server....



Edie Brickell - What I am - just heard this on the radio this afternoon. It's a different experience here, of course, and Jerry Garcia's guitar work has a whole different presence.

Eric Johnson - Texas - straight ahead blues served up with style...

Emily Remler- Deep in a Trance- what a shame there aren't more albums from her before she died- she was just getting started.

Curandero- Aras- great job on the percussion...

[benthe8track]

Haha that Ardent looks so small next to it's big brother.
Yeah the screen spline is a bit tricky at first, you almost need 3 hands. You kind of need to twist it in as you work your way around with a screwdriver--the twisting action on that spline pulls the cloth tight as it goes in. They have a rolling tool for actual screen doors but I never bothered.

Any idea of the specs of felt you used? That F1 felt is dense for sure but fluffs up a lot if you hit it with sand paper.

Absolutely fantastic work! Thanks so much for the effort, just waiting for your stamp and I'll pull the trigger on the xover bits.

[JonMarsh]

Not a clue about the specs of the felt- bought from Orchard hardware years ago, and they don't carry it anymore. I could send you some, but it might be better just to research a bit. It's quite a bit softer than the stuff you guys have- like maybe 1/3 the density, certainly 1/2.


One more bit of info I forgot to post earlier- the impedance curve. Measured it today after putting the base back together. Pretty nice, that's a good feature of the NatalieP style quasi LR3- we have to give Evil Twin a nod of thanks for that! :W Red is the magnitude, blue the phase. No special efforts to make it this nice, just how it turned out.

NO changes in the network from what was posted above and from what your dad put a sheet together for. Tell you what, I'll give it the old Mark 1 eyeball review one more time top to bottom, then give you the "release to build".

Listenig to some other stuff on the good old mono system, including some Courtyard Hounds "Skyline", Gloria Estefan "Conga", and Five for Fighting (in a pop mood tonight- "Superman (it's not easy)", Crowded House "Don't Dream it's Over", and David Garfield (formerly of Steeley Dan) and his solo album version of "Jose". That last one was an acid test for the first incarnation of Gen1- highs too hard, bass just didn't have the weight and slam, and voice was a bit pinched, and yet not fleshed out properly for the harmonics. Not the case here.




Well, these may be shorter than their big brothers, but frankly, other than sheer volume capability, they don't give much if anything away to them. (sensitivity, too, of course). But an excellent set of tradeoffs. I'm quite pleased the more I hear, but I'd better not sprain my wrist patting myself on the back!

It's a bit of shame I'm not going to be able to take the to the Northern CA DIY meet- gonna be on a short camping trip to the Channel Islands with GF that weekend.

[dar47]

Wow Jon, wonderful work just cool seeing that response come down.:T

You know I was thinking the original felt could be sanded down to be thinner to obtain a gradual edge, that would make it a lot softer. We will see what you came up with though. I think we covered the grills without the excitement of hearing the speaker so it was easier and there is a roller tool for that as well but I just used a flat head screw driver.:lol:

Interesting comments on the dac with and without the pre. I was worried the response with just the M51 to amp would be a lot better then going through my pre (Emo XPS-1). I purchased the XPS-1 for the home theater bypass capability so I could have both 2.1 and 7.1 in the same well treated room. So turning the volume control off or leaving on, the M51 running through the pre doesn't seam any different at low level listening through the MK2's upstairs, maybe different down stairs though.

[JonMarsh]

Try opening up the hole in the felt for the tweeter and putting something close to a 45 degree bevel. I'll take more pictures of what I did, but basically I did a shallow half diamond bevel cut and completely removed the piece around the tweeter, then cut out the piece of the new stuff to drop in.

Now, the idea behind using the DAC with the PRE is that the DAC can be full up without digital attenuation. Then the ANALOG volume control of the preamp takes over, and shouldn't impact the sound. In practice, a lot of preamps do compromise the noise floor at lower volumes; the Aye KX-R is one of the few that doesn't, by design. I'm not sure about the 851e, but it does use a multiplying DAC in static mode as a precision variable resistor, and the overall distortion performance is 10X better than the old model, at lower than 0.0005. Yeah, that's three zeros. How will it sound? I don't know....

When you use your Emotive in 2 channel bypass mode, is the volume control still in the circuit? Ayre examined a lot of the HT volume control chips and found none of them were clean enough (measuring or sounding U) or quiet enough, but this was some years ago, 10-12 or more. It may be improved. Is that an XMC-1 you have? The Emotive web site lists the Emo XPS-1 as a phono preamp module. I'm confused ... (normal for me!)

Does your pre-pro have an analog bypass for the 2 channel mode? I notice most of the pre-pros actually digitize the input signal and then reconvert it to analog. One thing I like about the Cambridge preamp is that you can setup one input set as a flat bypass without volume control, and run the channels of an external preamp or processor into it, and set a fixed gain. Would facilitate a classy 5.1 or what ever with the stereo fronts.

I also will be doing some measurements of the speaker response where it is now, and also closer to the wall for comparison.

[5th element]

You know what I find surprising, is how nice the raw finished LBL speaker looks compared to all the effort put into the veneering. I for one would vastly prefer building loudspeakers out of materials that didn't need veneering, so this is nice food for thought.

[JonMarsh]

It DOES make things a lot simpler with that regard.... :B

[dar47]

Sorry, that's XSP-1, I don't know why make Phono pre called XPS-1

It is a fully differential balanced analog pre with some specs looking like 0.0004.

http://emotiva.com/products/pres-and-pros/xsp-1

[JonMarsh]

Sorry, that's XSP-1, I don't know why make Phono pre called XPS-1

It is a fully differential balanced analog pre with some specs looking like 0.0004.

http://emotiva.com/products/pres-and-pros/xsp-1

That's a nice looking preamp! :T Lots of connectivity, including a full array of balanced connections! And the price is very nice, too- with very reasonable looking build quality based on the pictures! I see it is more of a music preamp than HT.

Today my new Cambridge should arrive, but I don't expect to have time to do anything more than open the box and look at the shiny bits... we're in crunch mode, have a tight schedule between now and the 10th, expecting to work the weekend of the 4th and 5th to try to meet the final schedule. Should be a breather of sorts after that... might even be able to find time to order a new iPhone! And setup the new bridge router and QNAP NAS for the music server... and finish assembly of the 2nd Wavecor Ardent. Then the Isiris will go into the man cave for having crossovers installed in cabinets and other updates. Problem is, I suspect GF will really like the lower profile of Rob and Ginette (GF's name for them, after some Canadians she nows... don't ask) :W

[JonMarsh]

The Cambridge 851e did arrive today, I did just have time to unpack it, but the changes in industrial design and execution look quite nice and definitely have my interest whetted for the weekend.

[benthe8track]

Yeah that's sharp, I'm going to borrow some of that industrial design for my ncore build for ease of manufacture. Can't wait to hear your impressions of how it sounds.

[5th element]

That is a very nice looking piece of equipment. 10-15 years ago I'd never have thought that CA would have gone has far as they have, but hats off to them, they've really managed to succeed in, what is, quite a difficult industry.

[JonMarsh]

I think they've done it the plain old fashioned way- offering a lot of value for a reasonable amount of money, and been willing to work steadily on iterating their design and manufacturing concepts.

[JonMarsh]

Funny story today

This is one of those stories I likely wouldn't believe myself if someone else recounted, it, but who knows..

Got a ton of work work to do this week end, but at home, preparing a training for others that will occur in two weeks. but I figured, let's put the new 851e preamp into the system, play the Latin cut as a double check, and get to work.

Well, let's not go into the fact that the first pair of balanced interconnects between the DAC and Pre had issues, and that took a little while to sort out (by replacing them with a set of Cardas Golden Reference cables). But things still didn't sound right- I was thinking, it sounds clean, but a bit dark and a little spikey on the top end in spite of being overall a bit darker than I remember- and I hadn't moved the speaker. Well, I must have messed around with other interconnects, different channels, and even trying the DAC direct, before spotting both the diffraction control felt pieces sitting on the coffee table. Turns out GF had knocked the gilles off while vacuuming, didn't know what those pieces were that fell out, and just put them on the coffee table and put the speaker grill back on, as she knew THAT was just magnetic.

Well, I popped the felt pieces back in the grill, remounted that, listened with just the DAC and with the Preamp in circuit, and all seems to be well again- it sounds the way I remember it from last weekend!

The preamp works nicely, has great feeling volume control with huge dynamic range, BUT it's go so much configurability on the inputs that I need to find some time to go read the manual and make sure things get setup the way I want- initially, it started off in a mode expecting me to label and adjust each source input as desired.


Sheesh, my preamp is too smart for me! (or, I expect, this is pretty normal in the HT world and is migrating to the two channel world; this unit has all the control bus features and interfaces you usually expect just with HT.

[dar47]

A few dabs of hot glue is your friend:W Did she leave some skid marks, haha.

Sounds like a complicated pre, mine has ht bypass that just passes the unaltered signal along to the pre-pro for 7.1 or sends signal to the amp for 2 channel. It does have trims though and full eq for 2.1 although if I ever finish the IB sub I'll probably let the pro-amp with multiple savable eq settings do the work.

I'm going to look for some softer felt around town and maybe used the F1 as a guide for a new one piece unit but maybe after trying to make the f1 softer by sanding both sides.

[JonMarsh]

Hey, this pre even shuts itself down after a certain amount of time without an input signal- if you have it connected as control to a power amp that accepts remote control, would shut down that. Pretty cool, in the larger scheme of things.

Nothing to complain about the sound- seems quite transparent- the system DOES sound different, possibly a bit richer at low volume levels? I should really to a formal evaluation, but can't imagine when I'll find the time- (before Christmas)-- I couldn't even find time to read up on the owners manual a bit. Maybe I can download it and do that at lunch today on my iPad.

Made some solid progress on work-work stuff, including a couple of key milestones on the work I need to do preparing for the training to give in two weeks- NO progress on audio or speakers other than listening to the Pre while I work, and bouncing the idea for the new system off my colleague in Munich, who will be back out here again in mid October (that IR deal, you know... this is one of his swan songs, as he's actually started talking about retiring, though that my have just been me misinterpreting his list about how long Paul Hynes takes to deliver new builds on his regulators).

http://www.paulhynesdesign.com

His system is littered now with Paul's shunt regulators, and he's got a new one on order for his new Cello Chorale preamp.

http://www.matthew-james.net/Products/Chorale_Preamplifier/

The more I listen to the Wavecor Ardent the more I have to say I like the character of the SW223BD01 in the bottom end, it's definition and clarity as a bass driver. Maybe there really is something to the balanced drive design; it certainly measures well.

Anyway, found out that Solen has 12 of the PR223BD01 in stock... just what I would need for two of the LF line arrays. Hmmm...

The Scanspeak PR arrived today, and it looks well made, but it didn't come with the accessory weights that the data sheet implied. OTOH, it's pretty much in the ball park in the stock design. Gotta give this all some thought...

Lunches will be dedicated to going over the Ardent schematic and BOM this week, and double checking all numbers and updating. Right now, it looks really clean to me, but one more check can't hurt. We have a lot of issues in the lab, and special tests scheduled for this weekend, so I probably won't have an audio weekend until the 18th of October. Not good... :evil:

[benthe8track]

Hey, this pre even shuts itself down after a certain amount of time without an input signal- if you have it connected as control to a power amp that accepts remote control, would shut down that. Pretty cool, in the larger scheme of things.

Nothing to complain about the sound- seems quite transparent- the system DOES sound different, possibly a bit richer at low volume levels? I should really to a formal evaluation, but can't imagine when I'll find the time- (before Christmas)-- I couldn't even find time to read up on the owners manual a bit. Maybe I can download it and do that at lunch today on my iPad.

Made some solid progress on work-work stuff, including a couple of key milestones on the work I need to do preparing for the training to give in two weeks- NO progress on audio or speakers other than listening to the Pre while I work, and bouncing the idea for the new system off my colleague in Munich, who will be back out here again in mid October (that IR deal, you know... this is one of his swan songs, as he's actually started talking about retiring, though that my have just been me misinterpreting his list about how long Paul Hynes takes to deliver new builds on his regulators).

http://www.paulhynesdesign.com

His system is littered now with Paul's shunt regulators, and he's got a new one on order for his new Cello Chorale preamp.

http://www.matthew-james.net/Products/Chorale_Preamplifier/

The more I listen to the Wavecor Ardent the more I have to say I like the character of the SW223BD01 in the bottom end, it's definition and clarity as a bass driver. Maybe there really is something to the balanced drive design; it certainly measures well.

Anyway, found out that Solen has 12 of the PR223BD01 in stock... just what I would need for two of the LF line arrays. Hmmm...

The Scanspeak PR arrived today, and it looks well made, but it didn't come with the accessory weights that the data sheet implied. OTOH, it's pretty much in the ball park in the stock design. Gotta give this all some thought...

Lunches will be dedicated to going over the Ardent schematic and BOM this week, and double checking all numbers and updating. Right now, it looks really clean to me, but one more check can't hurt. We have a lot of issues in the lab, and special tests scheduled for this weekend, so I probably won't have an audio weekend until the 18th of October. Not good... :evil:

Looking forward to the sign off on the BOM, though I think I'll split the order over 2 months with the disparity in our dollars now (great for business bad for buying stuff). It seems your cambridge and that NAD M12 are somewhat unicorns at the local b&m shops. Noone can tell me when they will be in or Canadian pricing.

[JonMarsh]

Looking forward to the sign off on the BOM, though I think I'll split the order over 2 months with the disparity in our dollars now (great for business bad for buying stuff). It seems your cambridge and that NAD M12 are somewhat unicorns at the local b&m shops. Noone can tell me when they will be in or Canadian pricing.

Hmmm, I'm only seeing them at on line vendors here- I looked through their sites for dealers in Northern CA, and called some, but they just seem to carry the HT stuff.

Still need to find time to download that manual- work is looking pretty bad this week!

[kvardas]

I hate to bring this up, but here goes...do you think you will someday revive the discussion about a three-way version of the M8ta?

Ok, I did it.

:

[JonMarsh]

Ouch! Yes, you did it!

Would you be looking for a retrofit concept? One idea I was kicking around would be implementing the RD52 as the midrange- no enclosure, just a front panel hole of moderate depth. Using the crossover concepts from the Wavecor Ardent, based on the NatalieP, that wouldn't be all that hard to do...

It would be best to do a set of measurements from scratch (and I do have a set of M8ta still around), but I expect I could get well into the ball park with the measurement files I have on hand.

We're on track (as of yesterday evening) to finish up this big project in Cupertino this week. That should means that my life and commute goes back to a more normal schedule shortly, but we're hearing hemming and hawing from our management, so I suspect there's a "But... " or "if..when" clause somewhere in there. And I have a special training to prepare and do for our FAE's next week! But at some point I should start getting back a little bit of time in the evenings, which would give more opportunities for little R&D projects like this... I need to develop a crossover like this anyway, for the new version of the Modula CC, which will still use the RS52.

So, hang in there just a little bit....

In the interest of full disclosure, another complicating potentially complicating factor for the free time is my just coming across an example of of this GTS1000 Yamaha with low miles and very good shape about 900 miles away...





It's something of an odd duck, didn't sell well (expensive) but the RADD front end actually is quite reliable and works well, compared with say, the Bimota Tesi from the same time frame, which was a nightmare. One might call it a collectors item, but it's actually a very rideable sport tourer, which happens to be my preferred type of bike.

So there might be a road trip not far in my future, but there's a lot of what if's and decision making, plus if I go ahead, getting a Corbin seat for it and likely having the tires and battery upgraded.

These fascinated me when they came out about 22 years ago, but I never thought I'd come across one in this kind of shape and this low mileage. I suppose one could gauge my interest by the fact that I just ordered an official factory service manual for this from a vendor on Amazon... :W

[Hank]

Uh-oh, another bike for Mr. Overworked and looking for pressure relief:roll: I shouldn't critize TOO much, as my pressure relief this weekend was to take a flying trapeze lesson 8O. Yes, Trapeze Austin has full-size circus rigs and gives lessons, so I took my new young lady friend (don't ask how young) and did the intro lesson. Standing on the platform, about to jump out, I looked down at the net WAY down there and momentarily questioned my sanity:?? As have a few people I've told about it.
As the sign on my desk states: "I have no plans to grow up".

[JonMarsh]

Hmm, that sounds pretty cool, Hank! :T

Now, just where can I find a sign like that, or did you have it custom made? :W

I figure if I pick up this Yamaha, I'm not too likely to see myself coming and going, unlike all the Harley's and BMW's around here! And it's such a radical design, and this one in such nice shape, someone might mistake it for a new model!

[bigjohn]

I am now the proud owner of a pair baffles, the quality and workmanship on these is top notch, I can't wait to get started on these. Hopefully my OT will continue so I can start buying all the parts.



The baffles arrived yesterday in perfect condition, the smudge in the lower right is from one of my dogs giving it the smell test, which it passed. My wife is excited to have a smaller set of speakers in the living room, compared to the statements.

[Hank]

Now, just where can I find a sign like that, or did you have it custom made?

"made"?? Of course I DIY'd it. Wacky Word font, printed, cut out, taped on my desk sign. High dollar effort.
That bike does look rad and I do believe you would stick out from the crowd (con: you'd be a cop magnet, so be careful)

[JonMarsh]

I am now the proud owner of a pair baffles, the quality and workmanship on these is top notch, I can't wait to get started on these. Hopefully my OT will continue so I can start buying all the parts.



The baffles arrived yesterday in perfect condition, the smudge in the lower right is from one of my dogs giving it the smell test, which it passed. My wife is excited to have a smaller set of speakers in the living room, compared to the statements.

Congratulations BigJohn! You know, my GF is kind of impressed with the one that's finished in her family room- as you can see, it's quite a bit more petite than the Isiris, which she calls the pair "Bonnie and Clyde". And yes, she has named the Ardents, after a pair of her friends from Canada (what could be more appropriate?), and calls them "Rob and Jeanette".

In the near future I should have more time for working up some drawings and illustrations for the new cabinet design, I've got the 2nd generation CAD files from Ben, but some things are a bit cloudy in the looking glass here, including whether I have to keep commuting to Cupertino for a while anyway- possibly until Christmas, though the development phase is over.

That will be interesting to see how you compare the two designs- the Statements are a heck of a value proposition for what they cost and the effort to build, but I'm very happy with the tonality and performance of the Ardent since implementing the Wavecor woofers in this design. It's much closer to the capabilities of an Avalon Time than the Indra, it's original inspiration.

[JonMarsh]

"made"?? Of course I DIY'd it. Wacky Word font, printed, cut out, taped on my desk sign. High dollar effort.
That bike does look rad and I do believe you would stick out from the crowd (con: you'd be a cop magnet, so be careful)

Well of course!! :banghead: How could it be anything else? If I had an office that I went to on any kind of regular or even occasional basis anymore, I'd clearly have to copy your example.

As regards the scooter, I am in contact with the shop discussing some specific questions and some general terms, and am arranging funds should things be worked out to everyone's satisfaction. Also have quotes from them for mounting some new Michelin Pilot Roads on the bike.

Have researched trailering issues and costs and vendors locally- will need a hitch on my Honda Element anyway in the near future.

Verified that a Corbin seat is still available to order, and picked out the preferred configuration.

Located a factory service manual and ordered that.

And rode my ST1300 to work, as usual...

Just another day in the life of a Puer Eternus, I guess...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puer_aeternus

[dar47]

I am now the proud owner of a pair baffles, the quality and workmanship on these is top notch, I can't wait to get started on these. Hopefully my OT will continue so I can start buying all the parts.



The baffles arrived yesterday in perfect condition, the smudge in the lower right is from one of my dogs giving it the smell test, which it passed. My wife is excited to have a smaller set of speakers in the living room, compared to the statements.

Glad they arrived in good shape! :T Ya I think your going to free up some space and gain some quality. :B

Love the way my buddy Jon, the other Jon in Winnipeg coffinized them for transport. I'm still farting around with my storage-front stage area but hope to have the rest of my parts in and installed for the end of November so I'll give you my impression between the Ardents and Statements, although it's been a while since I have heard the statements. Keep us posted when you manage to get started.

[kvardas]

Ouch! Yes, you did it!

Would you be looking for a retrofit concept? One idea I was kicking around would be implementing the RD52 as the midrange- no enclosure, just a front panel hole of moderate depth.

:T:T that's it!


So, hang in there just a little bit....

Ok. Thanks!

[benthe8track]

Nice another member to the ardent club! If you're a solidworks guy let me know and I can give you all the files.

[dar47]

Jon how many bikes is it for you? :E

You know I have to admit I have been considering the 2014 VFR800f with the new style is nice and clean. I already like the Vtec in my Civic Si and it's getting appealing to rip around the city to work as I'm 8 mins. North of the city and work on the south side with an hour commute. A lot of VFR800 owners wanted to see a bump to 1000cc's but I guess that would likely kill sales on the VFR1200 they just tweaked. Seen some low prices on 2010-1200's so I'm wondering if it would be better for both in town jaunts and long hauls say to Calgary? Haven't driven bike since I was young so starting with the 800 seams appealing just don't want to be worn out on long hauls.

Now I got to order Ardent xover parts and get them playing before December, been to long it's making me sad when I walk by them.8O

[JonMarsh]

Jon how many bikes is it for you? :E

You know I have to admit I have been considering the 2014 VFR800f with the new style is nice and clean. I already like the Vtec in my Civic Si and it's getting appealing to rip around the city to work as I'm 8 mins. North of the city and work on the south side with an hour commute. A lot of VFR800 owners wanted to see a bump to 1000cc's but I guess that would likely kill sales on the VFR1200 they just tweaked. Seen some low prices on 2010-1200's so I'm wondering if it would be better for both in town jaunts and long hauls say to Calgary? Haven't driven bike since I was young so starting with the 800 seams appealing just don't want to be worn out on long hauls.

Now I got to order Ardent xover parts and get them playing before December, been to long it's making me sad when I walk by them.8O

My GF thinks too many. But I mean, you've got to put things in perspective. Motorcycles aren't like girlfriends or wives- you can have more than one. OTOH, you probably shouldn't have as many bikes as you have, say, guitars, or changes of underwear. :W I was just thinking about this and discussing with GF, that I will likely put my VFR800 up for sale soon, though this isn't the time of the year to expect much action in bikes. Many do consider the 5th generation to be something of a gem, as it still has the gear driven overhead cams, and doesn't have the flat spot in the midrange of the torque/HP curve that the 6th gen had, often attributing a HP surge above 6000 RPM to the VTEC, whereas it was more likely the ECU tuning for emissions standards. My VFR1200 has a little bit of similar behavior, in that they dummed down the midrange torque curve/throttle opening in 1st and 2nd gear below 6000 RPM, compared to the higher gears. That's easily fixed with a $60 plug in item for the manual transmission version (Bazazz Z-Bomb, have one on mine), but the DCT model requires a complete ECU re-flash.



For a '98, it's rather low miles (still too busy with child rearing stuff and work), under 10K. It has Heli-risers for the bars, and a Corbin seat; other wise it's stock. It needs a new set of tires again, and an oil change, probably a battery. It's probably a good idea to flush the coolant, too. I need to haul it over to GF's and get that stuff done sometime this winter.

I also have an 81 CBX originally bought new that will be something of a restoration project after I retire.

The new 2014 VFR does look quite nice, and for not being an all new design, they did spiff up a lot of stuff, and lowered the weight a bit in the process. I haven't seen a dyno curve for it yet, but the ride reports indicate that the upper RPM surge is gone and the power curve seems fairly smooth; this probably reflects different ECU mapping and hopefully NOT having the sag in the midrange torque curve. For reference, here's a dyno run on a 6th Gen VFR.


Image not available


Now, my VFR1200 has been tweaked up a bit, mostly in regards to chassis/comfort items, though I haven't had the time to write up anything about it. Later this fall...



Most recent change was my 3rd try on a windscreen, a tall version of the National Cycle screen, and it's' a keeper- recommended it to another rider who tried it and prefers it for this kind of bike to everything else he's ever ridden with, including the screen on a BMW 1200RT, so I guess that's a pretty good endorsement. It also has Knight Design foot pegs, which lower the pegs about 1.4" (the stock pegs have end feelers that long!), and Helibars (which raise the bar height and support more pull back, to the limit possible with the stock hydraulics). And of course, the mandatory(for me) Corbin seat- though initially I wasn't as charmed with this version as I have been with some others. Maybe the Honda seat wasn't as bad? I added the center stand, too, as well as a Pyramid rear hugger, and have some high power LED running lights planned, and possibly a Don Guhl ECU re-map. Oh, and it has the flapper mod for the exhaust, so the secondary exhaust path that normally only opens up above 6000 RPM is always open. Sounds better that way, and much cheaper than an aftermarket exhaust.

Now, regarding whether a 8th gen VFR or a 7th Gen VFR1200 is the best way to go, that all depends; depends a lot on you and what you want.

The VFR1200 is a strange contradiction in terms, in some ways, as I discovered when I picked it up. I really like the shaft drive, but the riding position on the stock bike seems to me to be more sports aggressive than for my '98 VFR800. What that means is that the peg position is higher, the bars further forward (just because of the sheer length/size of the bike, remember, 60.8" wheelbase), and frankly, my hips and knees were screaming at me a bit by the time I got home from the 100 mile ride from the dealer! A bit of a shock, frankly... but some yoga and working on the bike (bars, pegs, seat) have ameliorated those issues for the most part. Sit on both of them for 5 minutes at least, or preferably, do a test ride, see how your body reacts.


Aside from the horsepower difference (substantial; slightly tweaked 1200s (nothing inside the engine, just air filter, exhaust, and ECU remap) will put out about 100 HP at 6,000 RPM, and a lot of torque, with a whole lot more left between there and redline (10.5K) whereas that's the max HP for the 800. Crack the throttle open at 60MPH in 3rd or 4th gear and you'd better be holding on hard. The 800 feels more like a 600 after riding the 1200. For some preferences, that's not bad. Controllable, a bit lighter (not really noticeable above parking lot speeds), and slightly more flickable. The 1200 has a very nice 43mm inverted fork, and the frame and geometry are rock solid- a very comfortable and predictable feeling at speed in the corners, the best I've experienced. The default suspension settings are not optimal, but that doesn't take much work to dial in.

Oh, and did I mention the brakes? The 800 in all it's variants has four piston calipers in the front; with a reputation as being very good for a street bike, and the 2014 has upped the size a bit. OTOH, the 1200 has six piston calipers, bigger disks, and boy are they powerful and controllable. True one finger breaking if you're a woodworker with a little strength in your fore arms. :W

Last, weather protection- the weather protection on my 800 is certainly nothing to write home about- fairly minimal, and such that I can't say I enjoy riding it to work (35 miles) if the air temp is in the 55 or lower range. The fairing lowers are better designed on the 1200 than my 98- can't speak to the 2014. But especially, the National tall windscreen works very well on the 1200, putting the wind sheer zone at about my nose/eye level, which means I can tool down the freeway with my face shield partly opened with no issues and no air blast up the face shield. I don't know of a similar shield for the 800's, and the stock one certainly doesn't work that way. It puts more of the touring into the sport, if you know what I mean.

Summary? For me, there is no comparison. I'm a real fan of the 1200 (mine's a 2013, with traction control and a few other little tweaks, slightly larger gas tank, too). For a hooligan bike, it's fairly inexpensive to insure, about 1/4 what people get charged for something like a Kawasaki Ninja 1000. BUT, try out both if you can- see what works ergonomically and emotionally for you. I enjoyed the 800, but in a sense, this Yamaha GTS1000 I'm looking at would be a replacement for it, in the sense of being a somewhat mild mannered 100HP sport tourer, but with more low and midrange torque, and a unique suspension and technology package for it's time.

Image not available

Probably my chances of scoring this one are not that good, but we'll just have to see what happens.

Image not available

[bigjohn]

Congratulations BigJohn! You know, my GF is kind of impressed with the one that's finished in her family room- as you can see, it's quite a bit more petite than the Isiris, which she calls the pair "Bonnie and Clyde". And yes, she has named the Ardents, after a pair of her friends from Canada (what could be more appropriate?), and calls them "Rob and Jeanette".

In the near future I should have more time for working up some drawings and illustrations for the new cabinet design, I've got the 2nd generation CAD files from Ben, but some things are a bit cloudy in the looking glass here, including whether I have to keep commuting to Cupertino for a while anyway- possibly until Christmas, though the development phase is over.

That will be interesting to see how you compare the two designs- the Statements are a heck of a value proposition for what they cost and the effort to build, but I'm very happy with the tonality and performance of the Ardent since implementing the Wavecor woofers in this design. It's much closer to the capabilities of an Avalon Time than the Indra, it's original inspiration.

Thanks Jon, I'm excited to build these and compare them to my statements, I agree that they are quite good for the money and I plan on keeping them and when we build a new house here in the next few years i plan on building the statements II center and 2 more full size statements to use as surrounds, I know this is total overkill, but I have most of the drivers and it seems fun.

The Ardents will be my main music speakers and probably get the most use.

Glad they arrived in good shape! :T Ya I think your going to free up some space and gain some quality. :B

Love the way my buddy Jon, the other Jon in Winnipeg coffinized them for transport. I'm still farting around with my storage-front stage area but hope to have the rest of my parts in and installed for the end of November so I'll give you my impression between the Ardents and Statements, although it's been a while since I have heard the statements. Keep us posted when you manage to get started.

I'm glad they arrived safe too, and thank you again for helping facilitate this, I was a little worried by just the shear weight of the coffin, but when arrived the coffin didn't have a scratch on it. The coffin they is built like a tank, in fact I'm keeping them in it until I can find the time to build the new boxes. I'm very interested in your impression of them vs. the statements, I believe the statements will hold there own, but the ardents will win out.

[bigjohn]

Nice another member to the ardent club! If you're a solidworks guy let me know and I can give you all the files.

Thank you, I'm excited to be a member though it will be awhile before I finish, I do have solidworks and getting the model would be awesome, I'll send you a PM with my email.

[benthe8track]

Humm it looks like some stuff was lost from that dropbox folder.
Anyone who grabbed the older files send me a PM so I can make sure I have everything?

[JonMarsh]

DSL went down at GF's early this morning, and is still down as of 12:30 PM, even after talking to AT&T some hours ago- now they're pitching that she needs to get UVERSE because they really aren't supporting DSL anymore...

Anyway, I'm at Starbucks for a little sandwich and to post this; this is the actual schematic as built- but keep in mind, though some parts are different, the net electrical values are in most cases the same or nearly the same- I made some substitutions because of what was on hand and because of form factor (how to squeeze 7 gallons into a 5 gallon can, you know....




And now I see one of the parts in the second series pass cluster is mislabelled as regards designator, being called C3A1 instead of having been updated to C6B. Main parts affected are C1, C3, and C6. Any combination that adds up to the same total can be used- I mixed quality levels on the mid series pass. Resistors are all 20W Mundorf. My current favorites.


Now I've got to go back to working on the FAE training I need to give this Tuesday. Also, this week we found out that though the development phase of the project is complete, we're expected to keep showing up in Cupertino indefinitely until our management can recruit some replacements... that didn't sit well with some of us, needless to say!

In the good news department, I did put a deposit down on the GTS-1000 up in the Seattle area, and they're cool with my coming to pick it up the first weekend in November. And a Corbin seat is on order...



PTSD induced G.A.S. syndrome strikes again....

[benthe8track]

DSL went down at GF's early this morning, and is still down as of 12:30 PM, even after talking to AT&T some hours ago- now they're pitching that she needs to get UVERSE because they really aren't supporting DSL anymore...

Anyway, I'm at Starbucks for a little sandwich and to post this; this is the actual schematic as built- but keep in mind, though some parts are different, the net electrical values are in most cases the same or nearly the same- I made some substitutions because of what was on hand and because of form factor (how to squeeze 7 gallons into a 5 gallon can, you know....

I just got back from the mountains but just wondering if the above lines up ok with the BOM?

Really appreciate all the work in a hot house.:T I'm glad your liking the sound and it will be interesting how you rant these when your done stereo pair.

I think i'm going with the Jantzen super Z option for mid and tweet. I did add 27uf ESA for C3a, cheaper then last xo with 2 parts but more then the SA slightly.

Here my bill just xover without taxes and shipping. Still need to add the mids and some small what knots. Ben considering the $300. hit for the MR's though. Haha.



We will save on multiple item pricing ordering together and just 1 shipping cost so all is good.

[dar47]

Okay, here is an updated one. This has the C3A1 (or could be called C6c) changed and I added your MR caps in the tweet. Jon still has to call this the final production model though.

[benthe8track]

Here are the solidworks files: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/34v232q80...Mt1OeEiIa?dl=0

The main Assembly is in the baffle folder (Assembly 1) is what I used for everything.

[bigjohn]

Here are the solidworks files: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/34v232q80...Mt1OeEiIa?dl=0

The main Assembly is in the baffle folder (Assembly 1) is what I used for everything.

I got it all to load :T (minus the hardware) when I added the parts from the main dropbox. Excellent work on the modeling;x(, when this design first came out I tried doing the facets and had to ask 3 different solidworks users before some one knew how (I'm and electrical systems designer, who stays away from the mechanical stuff for the most part)

[benthe8track]

It's kind of rough and disorganized since I kept updating it as we went though instead of doing a fresh as-built but that's what I used to program the CNC. Some of the clearance for the dados could be closed in a bit but this will go together mostly hassle free.

Is any of the hardware loading for you? Most was turned off in the tree but some of the fasteners are missing. The inserts and screws have the mcmaster part number in the file name incase you wanted to order from them.

One thing I would change was the sides and back were made from laminating 3/8" MDF onto the 18mm Baltic (hence the odd dimensions if you measure tool them in the model). I would CNC the two materials individually then glue/clamp them to form the panels. We found that gluing the large panels even with a ton of weight tended to pull quite a bit.

[ergo]

The snapshots of the models look cool.

You could upload the files to GrabCAD - that'll allow people opening and seeing them online in browser. Also allows basic measurements etc. for those without SolidWorks

http://grabcad.com/

[benthe8track]

The snapshots of the models look cool.

You could upload the files to GrabCAD - that'll allow people opening and seeing them online in browser. Also allows basic measurements etc. for those without SolidWorks
http://grabcad.com/

That is a great idea! For people who use other CAD software there are IGS models in Ardent Models\Baffle\IGES\assem1.IGS. Most any cad software should be able to open those files and the better ones should be able to deconstruct them.