My Natalie P Journey Continues

[Rbrockman]

A few quick snaps of the new Nat P's. Hope to get some measurements soon.

[JonMarsh]

Nice! That's what we're looking for. Now I have a target cabinet pic to show my GF, too! These will be for "monitor" speakers in the music room, formerly known as the living room. Just moved most of my guitars into there this weekend....

[Rbrockman]

I had a chance to measure a few things, and to compare the output response of these new Nat P speakers with my current Modula MT ones.

The measurements below were made at 1m from each speaker. Seems like there's a bit of a bump in the Nat P's around 1.2kHz. Interesting how one of the SS tweeters is a bit hotter than the other on the very top end. The rising top end overall could be the mic response (ECM8000). The speakers were measured in exactly the same position within the room.

Red & Blue lines are the right and left Nat P
Green line is a Modula MT

[speedle]

Day um! I am gonna need some new boxes, clearly, and it's time to move the crossover to an external box too. Nice job, though the bump at one K surprised me.

Anybody know where I can get some natp front panels pre—routed?

[JonMarsh]

I had a chance to measure a few things, and to compare the output response of these new Nat P speakers with my current Modula MT ones.

The measurements below were made at 1m from each speaker. Seems like there's a bit of a bump in the Nat P's around 1.2kHz. Interesting how one of the SS tweeters is a bit hotter than the other on the very top end. The rising top end overall could be the mic response (ECM8000). The speakers were measured in exactly the same position within the room.

Red & Blue lines are the right and left Nat P
Green line is a Modula MT

This bears some investigation on my part- but heading out to work at the moment.

[JonMarsh]

BTW, how were the speakers setup, what was the measuring distance, and were those 6620's you used? And which gen of RS180-8?

[PewterTA]

Thanks guys... like I don't have enough to spend on...now I have to look at my cabinets and RS180s sitting there and now I want to start moving on those again. UGH! ha ha.

[Rbrockman]

Speakers were on stands, about 18" from a back wall, and no walls within 15 feet to either side. The microphone to speaker distance was 1 meter.

I used the ScanSpeak Revelator model D2904/7100-03

The RS180's are the new generation, purchased within the last 2 months.

Hope this helps

[JonMarsh]

It does, tells me what to check for correlation wise.

[Hdale85]

Maybe we should call these the Nat-P Ultra's or something rather than the "New NatP's" Or Nat-P Extremes.....gotta be something better

[JonMarsh]

Maybe we should call these the Nat-P Ultra's or something rather than the "New NatP's" Or Nat-P Extremes.....gotta be something better

That's possibly true- but it's all marketing stuff. I don't do marketing stuff much... suggestions are welcome. NatP Ultra isn't bad, maybe NatP Pro, since I'm going to use them as monitors?

A set of 71000 tweeters are on order. Will check response on my rig, on normal baffle,and maybe IB, too, weekend of 21 st if time can be found, otherwise after Xmas day in all likelihood. Taming the upper end rise (if that's what's going on) should be a simple RC zobel tweak. We'll see- will measure these outdoors, too. Might need to compare also with different wall distance placements- usually these work better more than 18" out. (think Cardas setup rules- I may have to break up their PDF and post it here for reference as a sticky.)

[Rbrockman]

I'll re-measure at several rear wall distances. When we speak of rear wall distance, do we measuring from the front baffle or back of speaker box?

May also try different measurement gates to remove as much room interference as I can.

[speedle]

I'm gonna propose Natalie P Maxx Series 2, but that's only because I like my speakers to reflect standard Wilson naming convention. ;-) New boxes for the top, improved front panel and a more repeatably adjustable physical connection between top and bottom, not to mention these tweeters (!) seem to justify that!

Now to start saving up to buy the crossover parts...

[JonMarsh]

Either one, as long as it's specified.

For development measurements, I usually use 40-50 msec, and have the cabinets 4-6 feet out in to the room, and use a Half Hamming window, which tapers off the sensitivity to the longer reflections. In determining room placement and final setup, I go out to ~150 msec.

[Finleyville]

Mr. Marsh,

You and your gf are now hired to stop on over anytime to set up your measuring equipment to perfectly position my Finalists in my home. Transportation, food, and your favorite tasty beverage will be provided. Not to mention meeting the whole 'Burgh Audio Circle......lol.

[speedle]

At Madisound. Note very smooth overall response and excellent 30 degree off axis response (green).

http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/scanspeak-soft-dome-tweeters/scanspeak-revelator-d2904/7100-03-wide-surround-black-face-plate/

Troel's test for dispersion of the 71000:



You can also get very good results with the less expensive SS Air circa D3004/6600-

http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/scanspeak-soft-dome-tweeters/scanspeak-illuminator-d3004/6600-aircirc-tweeter-textile-dome/

It has about 2 dB lower sensitivity, and will require a slight adjustment to the attenuation network. Easy to work out.

OK, thanks for that lower cost tweeter option too! One last question, although it might be easy to work out, I can't divine where the tweeter L-pad is for sure, it is R4? I'm guessing it might go back to something like 6 ohms to accommodate the lower sensitivity of the 6600? (trying not to look too stupid!)

[JoeAngelicchio]

A few quick snaps of the new Nat P's. Hope to get some measurements soon.

Those look great.

[PewterTA]

+2 - Definitely very sexy speakers in the Piano Black.

[JonMarsh]

Mr. Marsh,

You and your gf are now hired to stop on over anytime to set up your measuring equipment to perfectly position my Finalists in my home. Transportation, food, and your favorite tasty beverage will be provided. Not to mention meeting the whole 'Burgh Audio Circle......lol.

Be careful what you offer! I have news that I may get out of this routine of indentured servitude to a key customer within a month or two, may go back to some kind of normal business travel and routine again! Who knows what's possible then? :W

[JonMarsh]

OK, thanks for that lower cost tweeter option too! One last question, although it might be easy to work out, I can't divine where the tweeter L-pad is for sure, it is R4? I'm guessing it might go back to something like 6 ohms to accommodate the lower sensitivity of the 6600? (trying not to look too stupid!)

There's no such thing as a dumb question, and in this case, consider that several people "complemented" me at the first release of this design by saying it "hurt their brain to try to figure out how this worked". In fact, many folks were still using LspCAD 5 or other simulators that couldn't handle this kind of series network.

In this network, R3 is the series element, and R4+C4 act as both an impedance zobel and the shunt side of the network. To adjust sensitivity, best to start with R3; the various tweeters used in this system have a pretty flat impedance curve, so there's not much interaction with response with changing the source resistance over the expected range (~3 Ohms up to 6 Ohms).

Today a nice purty set of silver D29004/7100-02 arrived from Madisound. very nice build quality, with the cast aluminum rear cavity. Very good build quality.





During this break I'll mount these in my original NatP piano black enclosures and see how measurements compare with the factory IB ones. The original RS28a tweeters measured very nicely under the enclosure conditions.

[speedle]

Thanks! Makes it much easier to understand. That will be a very interesting comparison between the various tweeters, especially off axis.

[JonMarsh]

Yeah, I'm curious to see if we match the factory results for 30 degrees off axis, which shows very good level response out to 15 kHz. Few domes of this size approach that behavior.

[agrippa]

This is like giving the Natalie P implants. 8O <- Its not a smiley.

How much would something like this cost?

Oh, does anyone have an up to date BOM for the "Natural" Nat P?

[TEK]

A few quick snaps of the new Nat P's. Hope to get some measurements soon.

Wooow - that's impressive!

[speedle]

Yeah if those pictures don't inspire speaker lust I don't know what would. :-)

[PassingInterest]

Must resist...must re...oh, who am I fooling, beside myself? Okay, the Enhanced Version just got added to my backlog build list.

[Evil Twin]

Must resist...must re...oh, who am I fooling, beside myself? Okay, the Enhanced Version just got added to my backlog build list.

No one can resist the power of the Dark Side...

I can see that Jonmarsh has become too busy with the Isiris and Ardent to make acceptable progress on this project- I believe that once more I will have to step in and provide the necessary motivation... the Chancellor will not be satisfied with anything less than stellar results.

[PassingInterest]

No one can resist the power of the Dark Side...

I can see that Jonmarsh has become too busy with the Isiris and Ardent to make acceptable progress on this project- I believe that once more I will have to step in and provide the necessary motivation... the Chancellor will not be satisfied with anything less than stellar results.

Ha ha! You're a funny guy. Thanks for the great laugh!

[speedle]

Rbrockman did you ever get any measurements on these? How are they holding up, and are you content with your tweeter choice?

[Rbrockman]

I took some basic measurements which I posted here

I'm really enjoying these, however I feel like they need a bit of tweeter level adjusting and have been waiting to hear feedback from others and any followup measurements from Jon.

[speedle]

Ah, yes I see now! Time flies. Well, I'll be following this, but I'll be using the less expensive of the two tweeters. I really need someone to do the baffle routing though, I can convince the wife to drop the coin, but not the sawdust. My Tarkus pair were the last straw for the whole family!

[wkhanna]

Still in the process of acquiring parts for my upgrade.
Too many parallel projects & other audio acquisitions have slowed my progress.

[JonMarsh]

Still in the process of acquiring parts for my upgrade.
Too many parallel projects & other audio acquisitions have slowed my progress.

Boy, does THIS every sound familiar! But those 71000 sure are pretty to look at...

[speedle]

A few quick snaps of the new Nat P's. Hope to get some measurements soon.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, those are the sexiest damn stand mounts I've ever laid eyes on, and I simply must have some. Eventually.

[speedle]

Any chance this will evolve a bit more? I'd like to pull the trigger but I'm still not clear on the OP opinion of the end result versus the original. Bah!

[wkhanna]

It is actually scary to think a year has come & gone this quickly.

I was diverted initially by some digital projects, then financial constraints.
Then, I diverted a small windfall (V small) of needed funds into my computer-based server.

The next diversion was modifications to all my electronics, specifically, transformer isolation.

I have to admit, I did take a significant portion of my audio fund coffer to make the trip to the three-day Capital Audiofest along with my five favorite buddies.

In hindsight, spending three entire days , doing nothing but listening to new gear, talking with designers, journalists, enthusiasts & industry folk during the day & partying with all the same folks every evening was well worth it.


Regarding the 'Duded Up Nats', (as The Maestro initially referred to them)......

I am placing the order to Madisoud for the ScanSpeak Revelator D2904/7100-03's before Thanksgiving.
I mean, what else is one to do with a x-mas club check (of which The Wife knows nothing about)?

[JonMarsh]

It is actually scary to think a year has come & gone this quickly.


Regarding the 'Duded Up Nats', (as The Maestro initially referred to them)......

I am placing the order to Madisoud for the ScanSpeak Revelator D2904/7100-03's before Thanksgiving.
I mean, what else is one to do with a x-mas club check (of which The Wife knows nothing about)?

:rofl:

The sad thing is that I have my pair of 7100-02 for over a year, but then free time hasn't been my middle name for a while... and the Ardent Collaboration has had to receive the highest priority. But this will change, and Thanksgiving is my target also.

[speedle]

Thanks, that's all good to hear, versus it being some kind of crazy idea that didn't work out. I recall seeing somewhere in another thread maybe, that more refinement was requested of the crossover changes, but measurements were never forthcoming from the OP. That was the thing that slowed me down initially, as I waited for the tweaks to get worked out before hitting the order button.

[wkhanna]

Hi, Speedle!

Glad you are still interested in this little project.

It is time for us to put the 'Y' in DIY.

Once I get the new drivers installed, I will report my findings & listening impressions.
Then our resident masters can help guide me to any crossover adjustments that may be needed.

[speedle]

Very exciting, I'll stay tuned!

[JonMarsh]

Errands completed this morning. That means I picked up from storage the ScanSpeak 7100-02's, the TL N26, the RS210H, a 4 ohm RS225, and some precut MDF at Home Depot for making test baffles. Time to make some holes and some measurements!

The 9900 are on order, as well as some more 1 cu ft MTM cabs, and I have test baffles and RS180's to test with the original NatP configuration, too.

So, the intent is to check out how the 7100-02 works as an upgrade for the existing design and whether any tweaks are desirable, as well as develop the version with the Esoteric 5.5" woofers in the 1 cu ft MTM cabinet (this version models very flat in the low end, the same way the RS180's do better in the larger enclosures recommended for those with the DIY chops to move beyond a pre-built cabinet. You know who you are... :W

[wkhanna]

Four ScanSpeak Revelator D2904/7100-03's ordered (two for me & two for Dan PewterTA who is building the same "Duded Up" NatP version in the curved PE cabinets).

I should be dropping these my 65 liter cabinets some time next week.

[JonMarsh]

I should have the network stuff simulated for them by sometime next week! (if we're lucky- there's a bunch of stuff scheduled already for the week- might be the weekend, realistically...

Note that these guys are about 4 dB more efficient that the original drivers- see the CatZ measurements if you haven't already. Measured on a NatalieP size and width baffle.

[speedle]

And accordingly I've started following prices on the D3004 - 6600 again, assuming again that it's primarily an efficiency difference and nothing insurmountable in the frequency domain. Woot!

[wkhanna]

.....Note that these guys are about 4 dB more efficient that the original drivers- see the CatZ measurements if you haven't already...

Duly noted.:T

I plan on having a few different values of resisters on hand for R3 to do some voicing utilizing Dan's 'Golden Ears'.

Eventually, the xo's will be re-built with the Jantzen Z caps the Mundorf M-Resist Supreme components once your sims are completed.

I am going to have to cut an access panel in the rear baffles of my 65 litre towers, however, in order to access my xo boards.:M