Are your amps. plugged in directly to the wall Vs power conditioner ?

[Eliav]

Hi All

Has any of you experienced any audible diffierences ( particularly in lower frequencies reproduction) , when powering your amps through your power conditioner Vs the walls outlets ?

My experience with Classe CAM 600 monoblocks is that Bass reproduction is slightly better when plugged directly into the wall's outlets ( no designated ones, jsut regular 15 amps). it seems like my amps. are somewhat "short of breathe" when plugged into the power conditioner. I observed this while playing mid-levels volumes ~55dBs with pop music tracks. again, just my impression.
My power conditioner manual however, states it is engineered to generously supply the demand of current hungry amplifiers. ( Using Shunyata Hydra Talos, with their appropriate HC power cables).

Your experience ?
Thanks

[mjb]

My amps are plugged into their own circuit, a cable direct from the breaker box, as recommended. A power conditioner will introduce a "latency", so I think you're right in your observation.

[Glen B]

I use a balanced isolation transformer, and find its most notable benefit to be improved low frequency reproduction. A device like an isolation transformer, once appropriately sized, lets the load "see" a low electrical source impedance, and no current lag. The effect is virtually like having the utility transformer relocated to within a few feet of your system.

[Srrndhound]

If we are considering normal (dumb) power amps, as long as the amp output is not clipping, the output impedance and speaker control capabilities are identical regardless of what they are plugged into. So the sound does not change. Push the amps to near their max output, that's a different story.

However, if the amp is somehow monitoring the power source, and adjusting its drive capabilities in response, the way a car engine monitors detonation and adjusts the timing, then I suppose that sound quality could be affected. Do the CAM amps do that?

[Eliav]

Good question.
I was thinking about calling Classe's technical support and asking for their advice.
I remain interested reading other member's opinion/ experience with the source powering their amplifiers.
Thanks
Eliav

[bigburner]

I'm into a wall outlet connected directly to the switchboard on a dedicated circuit.

Nigel.

[madmac]

I'm seriously skeptical about this observation. There are many things in our homes that draw more power than audio equipment.

I would arrange a blind comparison with the help of someone and prove to yourself that you are hearing a difference 5-10 times out of 10......Blindfolded!.

On another note, I believe it's really dangerous to run expensive equipment without a power spike/conditioner in between to protect it. My 2 cents!!.

[Srrndhound]

^^ Yes, the whole house should have surge protection, at minimum.

[impala454]

I am interested to learn the actual science behind surge protection. It seems like a blanket accepted truth that I really don't understand. The questions I have:

1. If I was monitoring my electrical outlets, how would I measure/quantify a "surge"? I get that surge protectors have a rating in Joules, but how does that relate to an actual surge?

2. Where does the "surge" come from? Power plant? Circuit breaker panel? Neighborhood transformers?

3. How often are there surges and how much (quantified in question 1)?

4. What physical effects does the surge have on my equipment?

5. What exactly does the surge protector do to protect the equipment?

6. Does it also protect from drops, such as my AC coming on and the lights dim shortly or the HD OTA antenna signal drops for a split second?

7. If I need one so badly to protect my amplifier, why don't I need one to protect my microwave? Or washing machine? Or refrigerator? Or even my cell phone charger? I don't typically see surge protectors used in those situations.

Needless to say, I'm extremely skeptical of the true usefulness of these products. Or at least would like to learn why they're needed and how they actually work. Surge protectors are among one of the highest markup items at electronics stores after cables (which is why they push you to buy them).

All that said, I do understand the usefulness behind battery backups, and do employ them on devices such as my DLP TV or computer, which I would not want to suddenly cut power when cooling fans are needed.

Also I think it's worth mentioning, this has absolutely nothing to do with lightning, and if you think your surge protector is protecting you from a lightning strike, I think you have some learning to do yourself

[mjb]

I am interested to learn the actual science behind surge protection. It seems like a blanket accepted truth that I really don't understand.

Yes, I agree! What are these mythical surges people speak of? I've always been skeptical, but thought perhaps North American 110v power is somehow more susceptible compared to European 220v. A "power conditioner" is a rare extravagance in Europe.

[beden1]

I am interested to learn the actual science behind surge protection. It seems like a blanket accepted truth that I really don't understand. The questions I have:

1. If I was monitoring my electrical outlets, how would I measure/quantify a "surge"? I get that surge protectors have a rating in Joules, but how does that relate to an actual surge?

2. Where does the "surge" come from? Power plant? Circuit breaker panel? Neighborhood transformers?

3. How often are there surges and how much (quantified in question 1)?

4. What physical effects does the surge have on my equipment?

5. What exactly does the surge protector do to protect the equipment?

6. Does it also protect from drops, such as my AC coming on and the lights dim shortly or the HD OTA antenna signal drops for a split second?

7. If I need one so badly to protect my amplifier, why don't I need one to protect my microwave? Or washing machine? Or refrigerator? Or even my cell phone charger? I don't typically see surge protectors used in those situations.

Needless to say, I'm extremely skeptical of the true usefulness of these products. Or at least would like to learn why they're needed and how they actually work. Surge protectors are among one of the highest markup items at electronics stores after cables (which is why they push you to buy them).

All that said, I do understand the usefulness behind battery backups, and do employ them on devices such as my DLP TV or computer, which I would not want to suddenly cut power when cooling fans are needed.

Also I think it's worth mentioning, this has absolutely nothing to do with lightning, and if you think your surge protector is protecting you from a lightning strike, I think you have some learning to do yourself

Our house in PA has been hit three times by lightning. It seems to enter the house through the TV (Comcast) cable and then hits anything connected directly to or indirectly to the cable/cable box. The last time, it also jumped circuits and damaged equipment in other parts of the house, and also, jumped through a wireless router and damaged two computers and printers. It was a very strange occurance.

In the last hit, the damaged items included the cable box (outside cable was connected directly to the cable box without a surge protector, but the cable box was connected to a surge protector. I did it this was because the cable company said the box had a built in surge protector and the signal would be better with a direct connection. I now have the cable also connected through a surge protector). A Pioneer Elite receiver was fried; Aragon amp was fried; but, the TV, blue ray player and sub woofer amp were fine.

I also lost a tread mill and shuffle bowling machine in the basement on another circuit; the garage door motor on a different circuit; 2 computers and printers on different circuits that were connected to surge protectors but were fried through the wireless signal.

I still have to get a whole house surge protector. But, I think the primary thing to protect is the TV cable coming into your house. Route it through a quality surge protector before connecting it to the cable box. Do the same for all TV cables connected to all cable boxes or TVs in your house. This should stop most of the damage through lightning strikes, IMO.

[Srrndhound]

I am interested to learn the actual science behind surge protection. It seems like a blanket accepted truth that I really don't understand.

Also I think it's worth mentioning, this has absolutely nothing to do with lightning, and if you think your surge protector is protecting you from a lightning strike, I think you have some learning to do yourself

So, you don't really understand it, yet have already concluded it offers no protection from lightning? :roll:

1. If I was monitoring my electrical outlets, how would I measure/quantify a "surge"?

2. Where does the "surge" come from? Power plant? Circuit breaker panel? Neighborhood transformers?

This document answers many of your questions.

3. How often are there surges and how much (quantified in question 1)?

It only takes one.

4. What physical effects does the surge have on my equipment?

Partial to complete destruction.

5. What exactly does the surge protector do to protect the equipment?

Reduces the magnitude to a survivable level. This is most effective with 2-stage strategy.

6. Does it also protect from drops, such as my AC coming on and the lights dim shortly or the HD OTA antenna signal drops for a split second?

No to both.

7. If I need one so badly to protect my amplifier, why don't I need one to protect my microwave? Or washing machine? Or refrigerator? Or even my cell phone charger? I don't typically see surge protectors used in those situations.

That's why you want whole-house surge protection at the service panel.

Surge protectors are among one of the highest markup items at electronics stores after cables (which is why they push you to buy them).

Not if you avoid the boutique makers. Stick with Eaton, GE, etc. The prices are reasonable.

All that said, I do understand the usefulness behind battery backups, and do employ them on devices such as my DLP TV or computer, which I would not want to suddenly cut power when cooling fans are needed.

Make sure to use UPS on DVRs, too. And they also usually include additional MOV surge protection, which is part 2 of the 2-stage strategy.

[madmac]

Surges are absolutely real and a nearby lightning strike will certainly cause one. A friend of mine got his antenna amplifier fried by a nearby strike.

One point to note however is that a surge protector will not work (And it's guarantee for your equipment is null and void!!) if it is not connected to a well grounded socket. Many older homes do not have grounded sockets.

[impala454]

Srrndhound, your answers are much more defensive than I meant to invoke.

So, you don't really understand it, yet have already concluded it offers no protection from lightning? :roll:

I have seen with my own two eyes equipment that was fried during a lightning strike, which was not even plugged into a wall much less a surge protector. That makes me less apt to believe in their usefulness as protection from lightning.

This document answers many of your questions.

I'll check it out, though I suspect a bit of bias as the document is coming from the company selling the items in question

It only takes one.

Only takes one surge to damage my equipment? And how much of a surge, what quantity? That would seem to be an important fact...

Partial to complete destruction.

What exactly does partial destruction entail? What quantity of surge does it take to partially or completely destroy my equipment?

Reduces the magnitude to a survivable level. This is most effective with 2-stage strategy.

Right, what exactly are the electronics doing that "reduces the magnitude"? Again, what is the magnitude measure in? Don't they begin to fail over time? How do I know that I'm no longer protected from magnitude X surges? Do I just rely on the little light the company built in that says "you need to buy another surge protector from us?"

No to both.

So can voltage drops also damage my equipment? Do they happen as often as surges? Doesn't this make a surge suppressor only half the battle and really everyone should be buying battery backups instead?

That's why you want whole-house surge protection at the service panel.

Ok, but that doesn't answer the question. You provided a blanket answer under the assumption that the surges damage everything all the time. I'm simply asking why people only get surge protectors for stuff like computers and TVs, but not for microwaves or washing machines. It would seem to me that if surges can cause "partial to complete destruction" to equipment, then we'd have seen every device in a given house having the same problems.

Not if you avoid the boutique makers. Stick with Eaton, GE, etc. The prices are reasonable.

Ok I wasn't looking for a good price, just demonstrating that high markup items tend to be those that are the least necessary. Of course avoiding big box stores tends to get you a better price, that holds true for just about any consumer product that exists. At Best Buy, crazy expensive cables are just about the only item with a higher markup than surge protectors. Just saying.

Please don't take this as some attack on surge protection. But the fact that your responses were "it'll destroy your equipment" and not "X number of Joules will do Y to the Z component in your piece of equipment's power supply" or "X number of Joules over the normal amount happens typically Y times a day and a surge protector will reduce it by Z" tells me you don't know either. I just want to learn. Yes, I'm skeptical, but I'd rather know for sure what is going on than just accept it as fact.

[impala454]

Surges are absolutely real and a nearby lightning strike will certainly cause one. A friend of mine got his antenna amplifier fried by a nearby strike.

Considering it had a direct line to the roof, I doubt a surge protector would have made much difference

[impala454]

Looks like lots of good info here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surge_protector

[Srrndhound]

Srrndhound, your answers are much more defensive than I meant to invoke.

I have nothing to defend. 8)

I have seen with my own two eyes equipment that was fried during a lightning strike, which was not even plugged into a wall much less a surge protector. That makes me less apt to believe in their usefulness as protection from lightning.

Correct. A direct strike is almost impossible to protect against. But there's a potential for lots of damage even when the strike is not direct. The larger the radius for indirect strikes, the more that fit the definition.

I'll check it out, though I suspect a bit of bias as the document is coming from the company selling the items in question

They are not shills, however.

Only takes one surge to damage my equipment? And how much of a surge, what quantity? That would seem to be an important fact...

Yes, one surge. Each piece of equipment has its own threshold for harm. There is no rhyme or reason.

What exactly does partial destruction entail?

Some functions are dead, but the rest of the product survives.

Right, what exactly are the electronics doing that "reduces the magnitude"? Again, what is the magnitude measure in?

Read the referenced document.

Don't they begin to fail over time?

They can be damaged by surges. Some of them have status LEDs.

How do I know that I'm no longer protected from magnitude X surges? Do I just rely on the little light the company built in that says "you need to buy another surge protector from us?"

Yes, that is one way.

So can voltage drops also damage my equipment?

If there are mechanical devices like hard drives, absolutely. That's why I recommended a UPS for your DVR.

Do they happen as often as surges?

Much more frequently.

Doesn't this make a surge suppressor only half the battle and really everyone should be buying battery backups instead?

On as as-needed basis.

Ok, but that doesn't answer the question. You provided a blanket answer under the assumption that the surges damage everything all the time.

Not at all. Most surges do not damage anything. Only equipment-damaging surges damage equipment.

I'm simply asking why people only get surge protectors for stuff like computers and TVs, but not for microwaves or washing machines. It would seem to me that if surges can cause "partial to complete destruction" to equipment, then we'd have seen every device in a given house having the same problems.

Could be many reasons. I suspect people are more paranoid about their PCs than the toaster ovens. The latter and its contents being much easier to replace than the former.

Ok I wasn't looking for a good price, just demonstrating that high markup items tend to be those that are the least necessary. Of course avoiding big box stores tends to get you a better price, that holds true for just about any consumer product that exists. At Best Buy, crazy expensive cables are just about the only item with a higher markup than surge protectors. Just saying.

Best Buy does not even carry the devices we are talking about here. Maybe Home Depot.

Please don't take this as some attack on surge protection.

Not in the slightest. You have presented no evidence to counter the proposition.

But the fact that your responses were "it'll destroy your equipment" and not "X number of Joules will do Y to the Z component in your piece of equipment's power supply" or "X number of Joules over the normal amount happens typically Y times a day and a surge protector will reduce it by Z" tells me you don't know either. I just want to learn. Yes, I'm skeptical, but I'd rather know for sure what is going on than just accept it as fact.

I never said it will destroy, only that it could. Read the referenced document.

[impala454]

Wait a minute, so you tell me surge protectors protect me from something you can't quantify to me without saying "read the document" and then suggest that I need to provide evidence to counter that idea? I think you got it backwards.

I will say that from reading and learning a bit, it seems like a whole home protection block at the circuit panel with an upgraded grounding spike is helpful/useful, and the little power strip based ones are absolutely worthless. The amount of energy differences a surge protector would "protect" against are already handled by whatever device is plugged in as per UL spec (you know, all those little words near the plug of your device?).

[Srrndhound]

Wait a minute, so you tell me surge protectors protect me from something you can't quantify to me without saying "read the document" and then suggest that I need to provide evidence to counter that idea? I think you got it backwards.

I am not asking you for any evidence at all. I simply observed you did not provide any. That may be a moot point, since I highly doubt there is any evidence to show that proper surge protection is not useful.

I will say that from reading and learning a bit, it seems like a whole home protection block at the circuit panel with an upgraded grounding spike is helpful/useful, and the little power strip based ones are absolutely worthless.

Yes.

The amount of energy differences a surge protector would "protect" against are already handled by whatever device is plugged in as per UL spec (you know, all those little words near the plug of your device?).

UL is about safety, not immunity to surges. All they care about in a surge is that the product does not burn down the house.

[madmac]

Considering it had a direct line to the roof, I doubt a surge protector would have made much difference

Remember that I am not talking about a direct strike here!. Nothing will survive a direct strike....not even the house itself !!.

[madmac]

Wait a minute, so you tell me surge protectors protect me from something you can't quantify to me without saying "read the document" and then suggest that I need to provide evidence to counter that idea? I think you got it backwards.

I will say that from reading and learning a bit, it seems like a whole home protection block at the circuit panel with an upgraded grounding spike is helpful/useful, and the little power strip based ones are absolutely worthless. The amount of energy differences a surge protector would "protect" against are already handled by whatever device is plugged in as per UL spec (you know, all those little words near the plug of your device?).

speaking of surges, your profile pic is a nice example of one!! Hehehe!! :rofl:

[impala454]

Yoda didn't need any surge protector vs Palpatine :P

I'll skip any further arguments as it will just turn circular. Suffice it to say I'm not convinced it's necessary and doubt I'll invest heavily except whenever I get a house I'd probably at least make sure I have a very good grounding setup.

[slauten]

Some passionate discussion going on here! My 2 cents worth based on personal experience. I own a a/c & heating company and get involved in lightning strikes and voltage surges all the time. A few years ago my next-door neighbor got a surge during a storm so bad it turned on remote controlled toys! Fried a bunch of stuff in his house, including electronics on his refrigerator, intercom, computers, tv's and some of his HVAC equipment controls. I'm next-door and it took out my security system, and some telephones. Depending on where you live...most of the time voltage surges are more of a concern than a direct strike. The surges are a result of a strike on the power grid, and may not be near your home or office. However the surge can have thousands of volts in them! The most common damage on audio/video equipment is the power supply gets damaged. It may not go out right away, but one day you go to turn it on and nothing happens. The power supply is dead. Lots of other things can happen, and in most cases no rhyme or reason can be known other than a capacitor, resistor, circuit board or whatever fails. This is a big issue, in that you take a surge or strike on your property a few things are damaged but everything else still works. Months or years later things fail...usually a power supply.

The typical power strip claiming to protect against lightning strikes and surges is a joke. Some of the more expensive units provide minimal benefits. I've looked for a long time at alternative to typical surge suppression. I found this product through an electrician friend of mine:

The product is called: ZeroSurge suppressors I use them at my and office for the server, telephone system, and other computers. i also use some of these at my home on tv's and computers. The difference between the typical surge suppressor and the ZeroSurge is:

If Shunt Mode "All three Modes" suppressors can actually cause data problems, what should I look for in a powerline surge suppressor?
Experts recommend the Series Mode type for modern computing systems, or any sensitive electronic system that may be interconnected with other electronic systems. A heavy duty surge reactor acts to deflect surges rather than perting surges where they can do further harm.

The following list of specifications should be carefully examined and compared:

Let-through voltage at maximum rated surge (not simply clamping level, which is the onset of clamping) using standard test pulses. (Let-through voltage is the amount of the surge voltage that is let-through to your protected equipment and should be as low as possible. 180 volts is the theoretical lower limit for 120 volt powerlines).
Service life for various surge levels (including maximum rated surge). A service life of 200 minimum worst-case surges is recommended for a five year life in high exposure locations.
Filter response. (i.e. greater than 30 dB at 100 kHz.) The important frequency range for surges is 5 kHz to 500 kHz. Greater than 20 dB at 100 kHz is desirable.
Safety Ground Wire contamination should be avoided if equipment is to be interconnected. Suppressors that claim "all three modes of protection" pert surges to the Safety Ground Wire and should not be used with interconnected equipment.
Self-test or failure indication (not "protection working" indicators which are often little more than power applied indicators).

I'm not saying ZeroSurge is the answer for everything...but I do believe that Series Mode is more effective than Shunt Mode.

At this time I am using PS Audio power regenerator for all my high end audio equipment. i live in Dallas Texas and voltage does vary a lot. We also have significant weather that generate thousands of lightning strike on the power grid. Plenty of debate as to whether power conditioning is better than power re-generation. Based on my 35 plus years of working on HVAC systems and the power systems that supply them electricity I feel under/over voltage is the most important aspect of reliable performance on anything that uses electricity. Does not matter is it's an air conditioner or a high end amplifier...if the voltage is too low or too high it effects performance adversely! In addition the power supplied to most homes and offices is "dirty" or has noise on it.

I don't claim to be an expert on audio, I am an knowledgeable on HVAC. I will let you be the judge on what makes more sense? "Conditioning" existing power, or "Regenerating" the power?

Hope this sheds some "light" on this topic!

See Ya,
Steve

[impala454]

I'm trying to follow along and don't understand this part:

Filter response. (i.e. greater than 30 dB at 100 kHz.) The important frequency range for surges is 5 kHz to 500 kHz. Greater than 20 dB at 100 kHz is desirable.

I also noticed on that PS Audio's page they mention:

Noise between 100kHz and 2MHz is reduced in all modes by more than 80dB.

Why do we care about those frequencies when the frequency is ~60Hz?

[wildtangent]

I'm trying to follow along and don't understand this part:


I also noticed on that PS Audio's page they mention:


Why do we care about those frequencies when the frequency is ~60Hz?

Consider the surge as a single cycle of some frequency but at much higher amplitude than the AC line. So if you have a surge that lasts 10uS that would be equal to a single cycle of 100kHz (1/10^-6 seconds = 100^3 Hz ). If you have a filter with 20db attenuation at this frequency it would drop the level of the impulse or surge by a factor of 10, 30db by a factor of 31.6 40db by a factor of 100 and so on.

[lyug]

I have 2 power conditioners, a Torus Power and a Shunyata Talos. The former is a toroidal transformer that completely isolates my equipment from the power grid and the latter is part of the new Shunyata family of conditioners. I've done all sorts of combinations: all components in the Talos only (directly to wall), all in the Torus (directly to wall), all components in Talos and Talos in Torus, etc and the best sound I get is when my SSP-800 and sources are connected to the Talos and my subwoofer and amp are in the Torus. The Talos provides the refinement, micro-details, blacker background and the Torus is much better at improving the bass. It has more punch and provides a more solid presentation. I thought I could use only one conditioner but it's clear, in my setup at least, that using both provides the best results.

According to Shunyata, an amp can be connected to the Talos as it is not current limiting. My dealer thinks it's better to plug it straight into the wall and to only connect preamps and sources to a conditioner but he admittedly does not know the Torus. I find the sound more flat when the amp is plugged in the wall.

Bottom line, what I'm stating here is by no means a general rule and I'm sure your mileage may vary. But for those who are wondering if conditioners make a (good and significant) difference the answer is yes. My experience shows that using only one might help but using two is better