Ventilator noise of the new amplifier models

[gerardhn]

HI,

I have a new CA 2300. As you now the new models are actively cooled by means of small fan.

To be honest: I can hear the ventilator when amplifier is on and no music from speakers.

Iám surprized by this effect! I dont say its its loud, no, but I just hear a small noise!

Maybe my surprize is bigger and maybe has some "I'am pissed-ness" because I have an open kitchen with a much cheaper built in refrigerator and I have never noticed that machine! Yes if I want to hear, I can hear it. But I just dont hear it.

Maybe my surprize is again bigger because when I had a Compaq desktop on my office workplace (so almost in front of my noise on my desk with monitor on the desktop) I always noticed that I couldnot hear the the Compaq in front of me, although actively cooled.!

Can I ask experience from people who own the new range??

Thx

Gerard

[spykids777]

Hi,

I have the CA5300 and CAM600 - I hear the fans when they come on initially and then suddenly after a couple of min the sound stops. I do not hear it continiously. Maybe they come on if you play loud music for a long time or maybe they ambient surrounding temp is high?

[aarsoe]

Can be very dependent of what is behind your amplifier. If you have a bare wall then the noise from the fan will bounce of the wall. You could try to put a piece of carpet of something else that is soft behind and see if that will make a change in the sound.
Had a similar issue with my Oppo bdp-95 and a small piece of absorbing material made it go away..

[style]

Hi Gerard,

my ca2300 work very fine and I dont have (at today ops: ) any problems.

the actively cool is a part of this new "classe design" but the noise are very little!! not audible , or very little in "no music status"!

I'm surprized that your 2300 give you bad "sensation"!!!

Omar

[gerardhn]

I did some investagation with my head around the amp.

I had also on the right panel side (trafo side) a clear audible 50 Hz resonance in an on off pattern which become less by turning mains switch.

Anyone heard?

[mjb]

Fans whirl, and transformers hum, its physics. Classé can call it what they want, but its going to happen by the very nature of it all. However, things are getting pretty paranoid when you have to hold your ear NEXT to the box to hear it - and it still makes you crazy! If you can't live with it, exchange the amp, otherwise learn to accept it is how it is, and just enjoy the sound! I will add that I knew this would make me crazy too, thats why I bought a 2200.

[gerardhn]

MJB,

I hold my ear next to amp next to amp to locate to exactly : fan or not.

But the 2300 is not a 0 db amp like like the 2200!

So either Iám wrong, other my amp is wrong, or Iám paranoid.

[wettou]

I have two CA-M600 I hear the fan when it is turned on and nothing after that :T

I sit about 7 feet away from them. I put silicon pads underneath the amps which sit on slabs of granite to avoid any vibrations

[gerardhn]

Wettou,

I wonder..... your M600's are as quiet as passively cooled ones, which give 0 db!??

All other forum have no noise ??? Pls feedback than I will complain!!!!

[aarsoe]

The sound your hearing could also be due to a hard surface behind the amp coursing the sound to bounce. Try putting a piece of carpet or a something else that will reduce the reflection and see if that does not take away the problem..

[gerardhn]

Aarsoe, in my case thats not so easy.
And I have somtimes trafo resonance coming out amp from right side! Trafo is on right side as we can see from classe web site.
Just mailed dealer to ask for solution. Is unacceptable.. 50 Hz trafo noise, apart from ventilator.

[windshear]

Aarsoe, in my case thats not so easy.
And I have somtimes trafo resonance coming out amp from right side! Trafo is on right side as we can see from classe web site.
Just mailed dealer to ask for solution. Is unacceptable.. 50 Hz trafo noise, apart from ventilator.

Just for interest sake, have you measured your voltage comming to the amplifier from your mains ?

[Oddiophile]

HI,

I have a new CA 2300. As you now the new models are actively cooled by means of small fan.

To be honest: I can hear the ventilator when amplifier is on and no music from speakers.

Iám surprized by this effect! I dont say its its loud, no, but I just hear a small noise!

Maybe my surprize is bigger and maybe has some "I'am pissed-ness" because I have an open kitchen with a much cheaper built in refrigerator and I have never noticed that machine! Yes if I want to hear, I can hear it. But I just dont hear it.

Maybe my surprize is again bigger because when I had a Compaq desktop on my office workplace (so almost in front of my noise on my desk with monitor on the desktop) I always noticed that I couldnot hear the the Compaq in front of me, although actively cooled.!

Can I ask experience from people who own the new range??

Thx

Gerard

Gerard,

I have 3 CA-M600 monoblocks and I had a similar problem to you. I could hear the noise at my listening position (about 15 feet or 4 meters away). I originally thought it was fan noise but quickly realized that it wasn't not the fan but more like a hum. Indeed, although it was not a loud noise, it was still irritating and I could hear it during quiet passages of music.

I did some research and after talking to Classe and to my dealer, I concluded that the problem was probably transformer hum caused by DC offset. For a better explanation, try the following link:

http://www.psaudio.com/ps/products/description/humbuster-iii?cat=power

I ordered 3 humbusters (@$250.00 each as I recall) from Music Direct in Chicago (I am sure they are available in Europe as well) and tried them. I had little risk other than the shipping costs as there was a 30 day money-back guarantee. Fortunately for me, the humbusters solved the problem and there was no noise after that.

The problem is due to the fact that large amplifiers such as the CA-M600 have very big transformers which are susceptible to stray DC in a home's electrical system. Stray DC often comes from something with a motor in it such as a furnace or a refrigerator.

In my case, I think it came from my refrigerator (my fridge is nowhere near my sound equipment). If you have a spare surge suppressor, you could try to plug the fridge into that. According to my dealer, that might work. It did not work for me although I did notice that the fridge was not as noisy. However, for the most part, the solution seems to be either an isolation transformer or a similar product such as the PS Audio Humbuster.

From what I can tell, this problem can occur with just about any high-powered amplifier so this is not something unique to the Classe CA-M600.

I hope this will be of some help to you. Best of luck!

Jim

[style]

Hi jim,

but you have soo noise with the new ICT system from Classe!!?!
my CA2300 work very fine!

and with the PS Audio humbuster you have no more noise from the ventils?!? 8O


please let me know I will speak with my dealer over this point...


Style

[windshear]

I took delivery of my new CA2300 today. I also have a CA5300. I have to agree that the CA2300 is noisy. It is noisier than my CA5300. It does appear to run warmer as well, hence maybe having the fan run a bit faster to regulate the temperature. Another factor to keep in mind is the size of the heatsink is quite a bit smaller than the multichannel amp and i would think it would reach a temperature threshold sooner, having the fan kick in sooner and hence being more audible. I can hear the fan running from about 3meter away. Fortunately my primary listening position is 4m away and beyond my low level noise threshold.

[Oddiophile]

Hi jim,

but you have soo noise with the new ICT system from Classe!!?!
my CA2300 work very fine!

and with the PS Audio humbuster you have no more noise from the ventils?!? 8O


please let me know I will speak with my dealer over this point...


Style

Style:

In my case, the noise was NOT from the fan/ventilation system; it was clearly from the transformer. The PS Audio Humbusters worked perfectly.

Jim

[Glen B]

Gerard,

I have 3 CA-M600 monoblocks and I had a similar problem to you. I could hear the noise at my listening position (about 15 feet or 4 meters away). I originally thought it was fan noise but quickly realized that it wasn't not the fan but more like a hum. Indeed, although it was not a loud noise, it was still irritating and I could hear it during quiet passages of music.

I did some research and after talking to Classe and to my dealer, I concluded that the problem was probably transformer hum caused by DC offset. For a better explanation, try the following link:

http://www.psaudio.com/ps/products/description/humbuster-iii?cat=power

I ordered 3 humbusters (@$250.00 each as I recall) from Music Direct in Chicago (I am sure they are available in Europe as well) and tried them. I had little risk other than the shipping costs as there was a 30 day money-back guarantee. Fortunately for me, the humbusters solved the problem and there was no noise after that.

The problem is due to the fact that large amplifiers such as the CA-M600 have very big transformers which are susceptible to stray DC in a home's electrical system. Stray DC often comes from something with a motor in it such as a furnace or a refrigerator.

In my case, I think it came from my refrigerator (my fridge is nowhere near my sound equipment). If you have a spare surge suppressor, you could try to plug the fridge into that. According to my dealer, that might work. It did not work for me although I did notice that the fridge was not as noisy. However, for the most part, the solution seems to be either an isolation transformer or a similar product such as the PS Audio Humbuster.

From what I can tell, this problem can occur with just about any high-powered amplifier so this is not something unique to the Classe CA-M600.

I hope this will be of some help to you. Best of luck!

Jim

Classé used to include a "noise filter" PC board with DC blocking circuitry on the incoming power line of their CA-000 and CA-001 legacy amps. Bryston includes DC blocking circuitry in their amps, as do some other manufacturers. So yes, as you rightly said, the problem is not unique to Classé.

It takes as little as a couple hundred millivolts of DC to cause hum or buzz in a transformer, with toroids being more susceptible than E-I core types. This DC can come from not just large appliance motors, but other sources such as dimmers, light fixtures, and other devices that employ diodes for speed or temperature control, and load the power line asymmetrically.

An isolation transformer can block DC, but is also susceptible to hum/buzz itself, so that can be a catch-22 type solution. I have experienced isolation transformer hum in the presence of a few hundred mV of DC.

The best and common solution is capacitor-based DC blocking circuitry, which is employed in the commercially available products from PS Audio, Channel Islands Audio, et al. A surge suppressor will not block DC.

[style]

the cp800 have a new system for the noises :

.......
A newly developed switch mode power supply employing PFC (Power
Factor Correction) provides the clean, high-current power required for best
performance. With PFC, the CP-800 operates at maximum efficiency without
disturbing other audio components sharing the same AC mains......


maybe the combo (pre and new ICT) can give a better "ound" of the fan/ventilators ?!?!

well have not so high probality the be the right street but i go test withh the cp800 is will be better...

in each case I dont have a noises st 3 meter from the ca2300!!!! 8O

style

[mjb]

Lets not forget, the original poster is from Europe - we have nice power in Europe, there's generally no need for power stabilisers, isolators, filters, etc. Excessive transformer hum is usually mechanical.

[mjb]

the cp800 have a new system for the noises :

.......
A newly developed switch mode power supply employing PFC (Power
Factor Correction) provides the clean, high-current power required for best
performance. With PFC, the CP-800 operates at maximum efficiency without
disturbing other audio components sharing the same AC mains......

So which is it? Does the audiophile crowd like or dislike switch mode power supplies? And, in a pre-amp, where maintaining a low noise floor is critical. At least with a switching PSU there's no 50/60hz hum.

[style]

Mike I do that in a normal case pre & ampli is like you have wrote in a old post....you have choice the ca2200 vs. the new serie like the transistor without fan ventil is 100% 0bd. noise...or so like that...

I think too that is a mechanical problem.

I wonder that the 2300 is more noiser vs. the 5300. the 5300 is "a special case"..always the same power at 4 and 8ohm,...(vs the ca5200)
and the multichannel need sure air = fan ventilator to have always a low temperatur...

but the point is how much a consumer accept this noises!

if I can hear the ventil at 3 meter is not a good thibg...expecially for a classe product! (and is made in Canada OT..)

I accept that the ventil to give a performance 100& after 12 min. from the ON make a LITTLE noise but not a 3 meter! (especially if you're changing a CD and then the system is at 0db theoretical..)

this ICT technologie, is a good thing? for me yes, but the price to pay is so much noise? no this no....

Is not a easy point this from the ventilator: clasé have a lot of year to introduce this new amplifier in place of the "cax200"! and I think (and I hope) that the engineers have put on the scales this "problem" (which is our customers - Class says that there are no problems with noise ...).


style

[londoner]

Is not a easy point this from the ventilator: clasé have a lot of year to introduce this new amplifier in place of the "cax200"! and I think (and I hope) that the engineers have put on the scales this "problem" (which is our customers - Class says that there are no problems with noise ...).
style

I suspect a major motivation for the ventilation was the custom install market where heat in racks is a particular problem, whereas noise is less of an issue. It was in the CT line that the new amplifiers were introduced first.

If I were Classe I'd be looking into how to make their new CP-800 power supply technology work for the big amplifiers too. Cool and quiet would be a big benefit for both CT and CA series. Whether that can be done while retaining and improving sound quality is a separate question.

[Glen B]

Lets not forget, the original poster is from Europe - we have nice power in Europe, there's generally no need for power stabilisers, isolators, filters, etc. Excessive transformer hum is usually mechanical.

"Nice power" means nothing when it comes to power line DC offset. DC is an internally generated problem, that has nothing to do with the overall quality of the electrical power supply. All mains supplies are susceptible, regardless of where in the world you live.

Excessive transformer hum can be both mechanical and caused by DC saturation. If the tranny is properly mounted and has no loose laminations, then DC would be the most probable cause of hum or buzz. I always advise people to check their transformer mounting, and look for possible sources of DC first. I have done a number of DC blockers for people that immediately cured their transformer buzz issues, so it is not always mechanical.

See post #24: http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr...enflup&23&4#23

DC blocker for "nice" European mains: http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/m...-blocker-.html

[gerardhn]

Hello,
Iám back as poster.
Did some investigation and emailing with my dealer.
There are 2 things.
1. Ventilator is too noisy. Dealer agreed: it should be dead quiet! It is not. When a cd is finished I can hear the CA. Even louder than my refrigerator. I have open kitchen and I never hear my refrigerator! Unacceptable for the CA! So next week they will pick it the CA up to check.
2. I also have trafo noise. Sometimes. One week no problem. The combination of ventilator and trafo makes the CA behave as an 40 years old amp!. Here I got also the explanation od DC in the net. Ok. Not as disturbing the fan : always fan noise.

So I send my CA back to check. MY opinion: MECHANICAL NOISE AT LISTENING PLACE IS UNACCEPTABLE FOR ANY HIFI AMP, SO UNACCEPTABELE FOR CA2300.
I have some fears to let Classe Holland to judge alone wether noise is acceptable or not and send my amp back with remark : "fan is ok, ït cools well".
Criterium for a 7000 currency amp: DEAD QUIET. Like my mother in heaven!

[gerardhn]

Iám also interested in the clear fact question answer. (no opinion, no theory, just fact).

if ca 2300 makes noise

will open new thread

[aarsoe]

Gerardhn

Wait until you hear back from B&W before judging them. Normally their customer service is excellent and I have not reason to suspect that they will not try to make you a very happy customer.

[style]

aarsoe,
the after sale service from B&W/Classe is the top today available, this is true.

n other brand make so one service, is a part insede the pre, ampli,..is broken/defekt you go have a new , the replace part direkt from UK and if now available Canada send asap. (max 3 week) this parts... :T

other big brand, like accuphase, can you wait 4-12 months!!!!! 8O


but this fan ventilator is a project part inside the ca2300: too with a new CA2300 you go have the same problem.!!

style

[gerardhn]

Style that is bad news...

[gerardhn]

My CA 2300 was replaced today, for a new one !

Much better, starting up noise lower, fan noise much lower!!!!!!

[hardy]

Quit classe and go to McIntosh

Hi everybody,

at the beginning of the year I changed all my amplifiers (CA-5200 and 4 CA-M400) to the new CA-5300 nad 4 CA-M600.
From the first day on, I had a hum coming from the transformer first only at the startup - later sometimes when the amps are on one time louder and one time not to hear.
After maybe one hour of listening I heard the fans not much loud but i can hear them and my listening position is 3 to 4 meters away from the amps.
It is horrible - in this price range it is absolut unacceptable for me.

This week i have an audition in my living room with 2 McIntosh MC-601 and a MX-150 and it sounds really great. and the best thing was - no transformer hum and no fan noise at all - absolut deth quiet.

So at the end of the session I ordered a MX-150 and 4 MC-601 and a MC-205 and give back all my Classè gear.

Hardy

[Skyblue]

Failty products happens with almost everything. Even stuff produced in canada

However, it is my understanding that in general there are no issues what so ever. Did you talk to your dealer?

[mjb]

If you stick a fan in something you concentrate on listening to, sooner or later you're going to hear it. You might not hear it until there's a quiet passage, but you will hear it!... Despite what ever the advertising blurb promises.

Hardy, at this price point, you did the right thing by finding a product you're totally happy with. Good luck, and happy listening :T

[Eliav]

My cam600 fan is not audible unless u stick your ears about an inch close. I am as critique as can be with my gear, the amps IMHO are FANtastic..

[style]

hi Eliav,

I'm happy for yours "cam600" :T ,

I find the new "Classe system" (ICT) very great, no noise, really I'm very sadisfait too.

greetings
Style

[Eliav]

Thank you Style.
Class did a very good job with their new delta series Amps. I find a significant improvement in sound quality moving from the cam 400 to the 600's.
I have also made some improvements with my source components (using Meridian Sooloos core 200 and a Chord Dac) in addition to my cdp 202 player, fantastic combo.
Cheers

[gerardhn]

There is wisdom in Hardys/MJB words.
Even my 2nd Classe 2300 is not 100% 0 dB quiet.
At any music level it is not audible, of course.
But finish your listen session, and wait till fan is turned off after 15 mins...

[style]

Personaly I' very happy with the CA2300.
Ampli ON, the fan turn or around 2-3 sec, and stop, totaly quiet listeng session!

Eliav what for Chord Dac do you use?


above the last jewels Chord, or the QDB76HD will be too a great "machine" of sound.....



thx Style

[hardy]

The fan noise is not that problem.
Maybe it's a special problem of us in Germany, but the hum of the transformer ist the much bigger problem, cause it comes in waves and is really loud.
And i'm not the only one who had this problem. A friend of mine (lives an hour away from me) have the same problem. At my dealers place there is the problem too, but not so loud.
and we have tested a PS-Audio Humbuster and a Burmester 948 Power Conditioner, but nothing helps.

[Eliav]

Personaly I' very happy with the CA2300.
Ampli ON, the fan turn or around 2-3 sec, and stop, totaly quiet listeng session!

Eliav what for Chord Dac do you use?


above the last jewels Chord, or the QDB76HD will be too a great "machine" of sound.....



thx Style

Style
I have the qbd76Hd. Amazing sound...

[wettou]

Hi everybody,

at the beginning of the year I changed all my amplifiers (CA-5200 and 4 CA-M400) to the new CA-5300 nad 4 CA-M600.
From the first day on, I had a hum coming from the transformer first only at the startup - later sometimes when the amps are on one time louder and one time not to hear.
After maybe one hour of listening I heard the fans not much loud but i can hear them and my listening position is 3 to 4 meters away from the amps.
It is horrible - in this price range it is absolut unacceptable for me.

This week i have an audition in my living room with 2 McIntosh MC-601 and a MX-150 and it sounds really great. and the best thing was - no transformer hum and no fan noise at all - absolut deth quiet.

So at the end of the session I ordered a MX-150 and 4 MC-601 and a MC-205 and give back all my Classè gear.

Hardy

That is unfortunate, own a pair of the CA-600 for six months now, no noise, no hum, the fans are off 90% of the time. I sit about 9 feet away from the amps I had a 20 amp dedicated line installed

I like McI but too flashy for me

[slauten]

I wonder if some of these noise issues are voltage related? I know Classe allows the equipment to run on different voltages based on the country. And for the sake of discussion it may be fine. However the fan motor may be quieter on USA voltage than EU voltage. Transformers can also get harmonic noise based on voltage. One significant difference is the IC Tunnel in new Classe amps vs. older ones. I don't remember any of these complaints until the new design, and it seems most of the complaints are outside North America. I wonder if hardy uses a power conditioner or power re-generator? I love my PS Audio P-10, it keeps the voltage feeding my gear very stable.

See Ya,
Steve

[Greg Gale]

Fan noise people are complaining about is non issue in my opinion...

I have the CA2300 and the fan is wisper quiet and I have my amplifier located at ear level in a cabinet only 8 feet from my listening position.

The only time I can hear the fan (which is very faint at best) is after a long cranking session where the fan is running at a higher speed until the amplifer cools down.

During listening sessions at normal volume the fan is running at its lowest speed and I have to put my ear up to the fan duct to hear it.

So the only time I can barely hear the fan from my listening position is when I am driving my 802 Diamonds at concert volume levels for a long period of time in between tracks. Once the music starts back up all I hear is glorious sound coming from my 802 Diamonds.

This amplifer is heads and shoulders above my previous CA2200 driving my 802 Diamonds like a charm.

JA tested the CT and CA 600 mono blocks and proclaimed "these were the best sounding amplifers he has heard in his system". He now uses them as his reference amplfiers. The circuitry and fan system is the same as in the CA2300 and the benefits to the fan keeping the operating temperature constant may be one of the reasons the amplifer sounds so good. I am sure this will help long term reliability as well.

[pcernicky]

Hello all....

I just bought CA-5300 and SSp-800 system and i was hearing two different kinds of noises coming from CA-5300 amp. Transformer noise due DC voltage and cooling fan that was running to cool the system down. I have my audio stand in the the corner so I could hear the fan and the DC noise pretty loud.

So I ordered based on reviews to test Emotiva CMX-2 AC Line Filter With DC Offset Eliminator and plugged in my CA and SSP. Transformer noise from CA was completely eliminated. But now i needed to take care of the fan noise.

Since I'm comfortable to take things apart and work with components, I opted to disassemble the CA. I found one 120mm fan in the front of the unit causing the noise when running. I use in my PC setup that runs non-stop all fans made by Austrian company Noctua and got 120mm NF-A12x25 PWM fan.
The original fan installed in CA-5300 was Chinese AFC 1212D DC Brushless Fan, which is not bad fan, but after while becomes noisy. The difference between Noctua and AFC fan was, that AFC can run up to 3400rpm, but with 49db and Air Flow 113.11 CFM, 3.2 cubic meter per minute and Noctua 2000rpm with 22.6db and Airflow 102,1 m³/h - 60 CFM. As you can see from the images I had to modify the fan little bit to accept the original screws for the heatsink and also opted fro complete rubber spacer between the heatsink and fan. Also had to make a wire converter between the board connector and Noctua fan, since they are different sizes. Just cut from AFC fan and also supplied extension from Noctua and soldier wires and use heatshrink or electrical tape to eliminate shorts. Here is the color coding on the wiring.

Noctua Connector AFC Connector
-/Black -/Black
+/ Yellow +/Red
Sense/Green Sense/Yellow
Control/Blue Control/Blue





Been running the amp for the last 2 hours, amazing how quiet the system is. Glad i did this MOD. Here are some images from the project. Ask any questions. Hope this helps.

Pictures from Fan replacement project.

[Sasha99]

Hi Pete, this is impressive - great work - I would gladly hire you to do that work for me...( I also have CA-5300), fan is mostly inaudible unless you push it hard. I am running Sigma SSP with CA-5300.

[TomScrut]

That's an interesting mod. Whilst I never had issues with my 2300 when I had it, I do have a Noctua CPU heatsink in my PC and it works great and is very quiet.

Transformer noise I have found in the past to be helped or hindered by filters. Sometimes it helps, sometimes plugging in direct to the wall helps!