Classe Audio to be made in Zhuhai, China

[beden1]

I guess I'll just throw some additional specific examples since they've already been mentioned. I currently use, or have used the following high quality brands which are manufactured in China:

Rotel (amps)
Oppo (CD, BluRay)
PS Audio (Power)
Shanling (CD, DAC)
CEntrance (DAC)
iBasso (DAC/ HP amp)
Sennheiser (headphones)
Shure (headphones)

Other brands I have not used, but are made in China:
Cambridge
Krell?
Musical Fidelity
Marantz?
NAD
Vincent
Parasound
Wadia
Cary
Arcam

Some of these companies produce only the mid-level components in China, some produce all of their components in China, including their flagship products which price in the same range as Classe.


I have a Chinese made Rotel integrated that is pushing 15 years without issue. Your statements again are unfounded.

Rotel, to my knowledge, has not been made in China for 15 years? As for the others (Krell? & Marantz?), thanks for the list. Just more companies not to buy from.

[beden1]

New HT system I'm putting together for our family room = Marantz AV7005 (Japan), Marantz MM8003 (Japan), Panasonic Vierra 65" VT30 HDTV (Japan), Salamander Cabinet (USA), Richard Gray power (USA), B&W 800 Series (England), Blue Jeans Cables (USA), Blu-Ray player (now probably Sony - Japan).

[btf1980]

New HT system I'm putting together for our family room = Marantz AV7005 (Japan), Marantz MM8003 (Japan), Panasonic Vierra 65" VT30 HDTV (Japan), Salamander Cabinet (USA), Richard Gray power (USA), B&W 800 Series (England), Blue Jeans Cables (USA), Blu-Ray player (now probably Sony - Japan).

The Marantz MM8003 is 100% made in China. Look at the rear panel.



I will say that it is a stellar power amp. I used it for a few years.

Sony Blu-ray players are assembled in Malaysia and China. But the components are usually Chinese. The exception might be the flagship model, but even then, there will be Chinese components in there. The only exception for non Chinese blu-ray players are the Marantz and Denon options I listed above for you. When it comes to blu-ray players, pretty much all of them are Chinese made or assembled.

I wouldn't bet on Panasonic being 100% Japanese either. They get parts from different places, and I'm sure China is there.

[beden1]

The Marantz MM8003 is 100% made in China. Look at the rear panel.



I will say that it is a stellar power amp. I used it for a few years.

Sony Blu-ray players are assembled in Malaysia and China. But the components are usually Chinese. The exception might be the flagship model, but even then, there will be Chinese components in there. The only exception for non Chinese blu-ray players are the Marantz and Denon options I listed above for you. When it comes to blu-ray players, pretty much all of them are Chinese made or assembled.

I wouldn't bet on Panasonic being 100% Japanese either. They get parts from different places, and I'm sure China is there.

That sucks that the Marantz amp is made in China! Looks like I'm back to the drawing board. This is what I'm talking about though...there will not be enough gainfully employed people left in the world outside of China to afford to buy these products years down the road, if all manufacturing goes to that region.

[beden1]

The Marantz AV7005 is Made in Japan. http://us.marantz.com/us/Products/Pa...V7005_back.jpg

WTH?

[btf1980]

The Marantz AV7005 is Made in Japan. http://us.marantz.com/us/Products/Pa...V7005_back.jpg

WTH?

Marantz splits up manufacturing between Japan, China and Malaysia. So it can be a bit confusing.

Nevertheless, you most definitely still have options since you prefer goods not assembled in China. Even within the Marantz product line, it's doable to get just the Japanese stuff. With 2 channel audio, it's much easier to assemble an American/European/Japanese system. With HT and A/V in general, it starts to get murky since the line there is blurred i.e. Something assembled in the US or Japan could have components mostly from China etc. Technically, it is still "Made in the USA" and the workforce is here, so depending on the individual's viewpoint, that could be a good thing or a bad thing.

[Sharp 1080]

As I said, "where I have a choice", I support products made in the USA and North America. I don't do it because of race discrimination, but, because if more people don't start taking the same stand, then I am really scared to think what will happen if jobs don't start returning to our country.

That's been said for the last 10 years and it's nothing new! It's the same diatribe every time, taking jobs away! The jobs have been gone for quite awhile. I'm sure you don't do it for "race discrimination" but it gets interpeted that way to some people. Just don't say " we need to get our country back" as one of the guys at my work has said in the past! :B

If the product is well made I don't care where it originated from. Hopefully Classe will maintain their standards.

[style]

If the product is well made I don't care where it originated from. Hopefully Classe will maintain their standards.

I agree 200%.


is not only black or wihite!!!

Classe was / is / now and tomorrrow a great brand with high standart of quality.
in sound, in product used to make the jewels....

your are a little blind.

you will see the new products Classe in your system; your only word will be wow wha a performance!

believe people!

style

[beden1]

I agree 200%.
is not only black or wihite!!!

Classe was / is / now and tomorrrow a great brand with high standart of quality.
in sound, in product used to make the jewels....

your are a little blind.

you will see the new products Classe in your system; your only word will be wow wha a performance!

believe people!

style

Et tu Omar! 8O

Your comment is quite Swiss, however. The Swiss are known for not taking sides (neutral), correct?

[style]

that right Brooks , peace no war!! :roll: ops: :T

but I have spoke with Classe today.....the complety history is not so "bad".. reality is much better...not as stated in this thread!

Omar

[aarsoe]

Usher.. Not that I have ever used them, but the design and finish is first class. Ming Da is another one.
In the end of the day this is more about emotions than facts. Chinese workers have two arms, teen fingers so there is no reason why they should not be able to do like anyone else. It all comes down to the quality control that Classe will be implementing.

But hey, I had the similar reaction to when they moved the manufacturing of the cabinets in the B&W 800 series from Denmark to the UK. In fact I think quality have dropped significant, but so far I am apparently the only one who can see it and that cares...

[Skyblue]

Usher.. Not that I have ever used them, but the design and finish is first class. Ming Da is another one.
In the end of the day this is more about emotions than facts. Chinese workers have two arms, teen fingers so there is no reason why they should not be able to do like anyone else. It all comes down to the quality control that Classe will be implementing.

But hey, I had the similar reaction to when they moved the manufacturing of the cabinets in the B&W 800 series from Denmark to the UK. In fact I think quality have dropped significant, but so far I am apparently the only one who can see it and that cares...

Indeed. Dont buy stuff manufactured in the UK.

Anyway, I think that if you should choose to not buy chinese because they take away jobs at home, then what is the point of buying japanese? Because thats where the jobs went in the 70's and 80's. Also, dont buy Korean, indian, and obviously, dont buy from the UK.

Otoh, you can also select to buy from a perspective of price and quality. This is what most people do. My Oppo 83 is really really excellent and much much better than the NAD it replaced. Do I care if its made in China? Not really.

If the Chinese can deliver, then I buy it. If they can't, I won't. Now I know chinese people are not exactly the world leaders in quality control, but who knows? In 10 years they might be.

[ert]

Anyway, I think that if you should choose to not buy chinese because they take away jobs at home, then what is the point of buying japanese? Because thats where the jobs went in the 70's and 80's. Also, dont buy Korean, indian, and obviously, dont buy from the UK.

It's blatantly just anti-China, which is illogical and silly, and in reality has nothing to do with first hand experience of modern Chinese quality. It reminds me when I was a child hearing all the old crabasses whining about Japanese and minorities stealing their jobs.

[specialized]

[QUOTE=Skyblue]Indeed. Dont buy stuff manufactured in the UK.

Anyway, I think that if you should choose to not buy chinese because they take away jobs at home, then what is the point of buying japanese? Because thats where the jobs went in the 70's and 80's. Also, dont buy Korean, indian, and obviously, dont buy from the UK.


Also to be sure that they wont steal any job in US dont listen any music which is not made in USA, or dont like the ART which is not Made IN USA, and Movies which are not Made In USA. To be sure that it's really made in USA, he can try to produce the things by him self.. That way he would be sure it's made in USA (but im not sure about quality of the things in that situation). Also where is Made In Globalisation at all ? (Made in China is just part of globalisation)

Does that mean that for the rest of the world who are not US citizens, should not buy things Made in USA becouse that way we do harm to our economy?

Sorry about this post but in 21 century i feel that we are citizens of the world and not part of some area..We have a chance to share ideas, products, emotions, arts.. all together and in real time. This forum if part of that as well.

No hard feelings

Greetings

Darko

[beden1]

[QUOTE=specialized]

Indeed. Dont buy stuff manufactured in the UK.

Anyway, I think that if you should choose to not buy chinese because they take away jobs at home, then what is the point of buying japanese? Because thats where the jobs went in the 70's and 80's. Also, dont buy Korean, indian, and obviously, dont buy from the UK.


Also to be sure that they wont steal any job in US dont listen any music which is not made in USA, or dont like the ART which is not Made IN USA, and Movies which are not Made In USA. To be sure that it's really made in USA, he can try to produce the things by him self.. That way he would be sure it's made in USA (but im not sure about quality of the things in that situation). Also where is Made In Globalisation at all ? (Made in China is just part of globalisation)

Does that mean that for the rest of the world who are not US citizens, should not buy things Made in USA becouse that way we do harm to our economy?

Sorry about this post but in 21 century i feel that we are citizens of the world and not part of some area..We have a chance to share ideas, products, emotions, arts.. all together and in real time. This forum if part of that as well.

No hard feelings

Greetings

Darko

No hard feelings at all. It's just a difference of opinion. You are entitled to your opinion, as am I.

IMO, globalization has helped third world countries far more than it has helped the US. The US has to wake up and start becoming an industrial giant, once again. If not, then I worry about our own next generations. It has to start somewhere, and I'm doing my small part by starting at home.

[specialized]

[QUOTE=beden1]

No hard feelings at all. It's just a difference of opinion. You are entitled to your opinion, as am I.

IMO, globalization has helped third world countries far more than it has helped the US. The US has to wake up and start becoming an industrial giant, once again. If not, then I worry about our own next generations. It has to start somewhere, and I'm doing my small part by starting at home.

And also making feelings in rest of the world (who are not americans) to dont buy american products to dont destroy their own economy and their next generations (based on u'r theory). This way u are doing even more harm to u'r country.. Since world is not USA and USA is just part of the world...And does globalization help or not to third world countries it's another question, which i wont ask in this theme to dont destroy the thread.

Greetings

Darko

[beden1]

[QUOTE=specialized]

And also making feelings in rest of the world (who are not americans) to dont buy american products to dont destroy their own economy and their next generations (based on u'r theory). This way u are doing even more harm to u'r country.. Since world is not USA and USA is just part of the world...And does globalization help or not to third world countries it's another question, which i wont ask in this theme to dont destroy the thread.

Greetings

Darko

I guess I now understand that you are not in the USA and your point of view is understandable, as is mine from where I sit. The USA has fed and helped the citizens of the world for too long, and now it's time to start taking care of our own.

We should stop our wars, stop aiding other countries outside of our own, mind our own business for a change (like the Swiss), and start re-building our own industrial strength and economy.

[shstrang98]

AFAIK, Marantz Reference Series components are still being made in Japan. I can't speak for the standard line.

All that's required is a visit to any web store that sells Marantz (Audio Advisor or OneCall) and the rear panels are usually visible and most clearly say "Made in China."
I have noticed that their Higher End stuff is still made in Japan. I have one of their CD-r615 stand alone CD burners that I bought in '96 and it was made in Belgium. For the record it's been a real POS requiring many returns to Superscope Technologies in Aurora, Ill for warranty work. Makes great sounding recordings when it works though.

[shstrang98]

Word spread and the US Consumers largely stopped buying these Made in China edible pet products, fearing for the safety of their own pets.

What about made in China baby forumula that killed some Chinese babies? Also my daughter loves Juicy Juice but some of their cartons are marked "Product of China." Those get left behind. China seems to have a talent for killing it's own citizens with tainted food.

I could have sworn that I read somewhere that Walmart is pressuring some companies to stop posting country of origin on food products.

[beden1]

What about made in China baby forumula that killed some Chinese babies? Also my daughter loves Juicy Juice but some of their cartons are marked "Product of China." Those get left behind. China seems to have a talent for killing it's own citizens with tainted food.

I could have sworn that I read somewhere that Walmart is pressuring some companies to stop posting country of origin on food products.

We had the same problems here with baby food made in China that had to be pulled off the shelves at stores like Walmart and dollar stores. Same thing with tooth paste, etc. There have been many incidents including national branded products that were Chinese forgeries. No quality control or ethical standards.

[ert]

China seems to have a talent for killing it's own citizens with tainted food.

They could learn a thing or two about killing people with food from the US. The data from China are sparse, but it seems that rate of the population-adjusted food poisoning deaths in China is less than in the US. The number of food recalls in the last 20 years had increased dramatically. US agribusiness abuses of antibiotics and corporate ownership of the FDA and USDA results in very poor safety records for US companies. One way to eat healthier in the US is to support local businesses that don't use antibiotics, pesticides or GM crops. Kind of hard to do in winter climates though

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/eid/vol5no5/mead.htm

http://www.reuters.com/article/2008/03/03/us-china-health-idUSPEK1127320080303

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_foodborne_illness_outbreaks_in_the_United_States

Also everyone please watch this film! http://www.foodincmovie.com/

[madmac]

Rotel and Classe gear made in China will have to be made to Rotel and Classe specs, using the components they tell them to put in there per there bill of materials. It will also have to be done well or they will not use them to manufacture their products anymore or lose their reputation AND their customers correct?.

Yes, some stuff made in China and is designed and Originated from Chinese manufacturers can be of dubious quality. Some stuff is good though. Some North American stuff is not good as well.......like their cars!!! Japanese do it better.... OUCH !! Don't hurt me !!

[style]

I go have a new CA2300.

AND I'M VERY HAPPY :P ops: ops: :T

Style

(and i'm not the obnly from the forum!!! NL)

[beden1]

I go have a new CA2300.

AND I'M VERY HAPPY :P ops: ops: :T

Style

(and i'm not the obnly from the forum!!! NL)

Your CA2300 was manufactured in Canada! Very good choice. :T

[shstrang98]

Some North American stuff is not good as well.......like their cars!!! Japanese do it better.... OUCH !! Don't hurt me !!

No argument from me on that. I've had good luck with American cars but I've known plenty that have not. FWIW I've known people that had issues with Nissan and Mitsubishi too. Toyota, Honda, Mazda all seem to be excellent.

And yes China can produce good quality products such as Lenovo thinkpads and Apple products.

[madmac]

No argument from me on that. I've had good luck with American cars but I've known plenty that have not. FWIW I've known people that had issues with Nissan and Mitsubishi too. Toyota, Honda, Mazda all seem to be excellent.

And yes China can produce good quality products such as Lenovo thinkpads and Apple products.

Honda and Toyota make the most long term reliable cars available today. Believe it or not, mine is an Accord 92!!!. How many 1992 GM vehicles are on the road today.....especially in Canada with our winters and salted roads ???!!!. :W

[specialized]

Honda and Toyota make the most long term reliable cars available today. Believe it or not, mine is an Accord 92!!!. How many 1992 GM vehicles are on the road today.....especially in Canada with our winters and salted roads ???!!!. :W

I agree with u.. I never had a issue with my Honda HR-V (96000 km on clock), and i can enjoy in my other hobies like mountain biking, skiing, hi-fi.. Last summer i have travel whole Italy , Slovenia and Croatia without single issue.. Also im very satisfied with previous car as well.. Small Suzuki Vitara (i sold it with 165000 km without any kind of problem while i use it). In term of cars i would always pick japanese, then korean and after that maybe german cars.. I would never ever buy american car (too much problems as i can read and see from experince of peoples who had it).

Same as u, im buying things to be able to enjoy my time , not to get another hobby like solving the problems and visiting the services.. I would always give a buy to quality, details, support and dont care where is produced..

Greetings

Darko

[beden1]

A great example of safety and quality controls in China.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/12/china-lead-poisoning-over_n_875605.html

[Skyblue]

A great example of safety and quality controls in China.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_875605.html

Dont eat your amps.

[Glen B]

Honda and Toyota make the most long term reliable cars available today. Believe it or not, mine is an Accord 92!!!. How many 1992 GM vehicles are on the road today.....especially in Canada with our winters and salted roads ???!!!. :W

I will attest to that. 1991 Acura here, with original engine and transmission, strictly dealer-maintained, always garaged, hand washed only, looks like new, runs like new. She draws stares and compliments every where I go. All I do is keep up routine maintenance, oil change every 3 months, transmission flush every 24 months, cooling system flush every 12 months, other service as needed per manufacturer's recommended schedule.

[GWNG8]

Well my 2 made in china rotels have been pieces of.....so I guess classe is up next for the chinese garbage sticker....and with good reason I'm sure.

[Nolan B]

I will not buy another Classe product if they come from China. Hopefully the amount of customers they gain offsets the amount they loose over this.

Im out...

[Grasynoll]

More North American jobs gone.

[slauten]

Several questions:

GWNG8-What issues do you have with your Rotels? I understand your feelings about how they work, just want to see how the country they are made in impacts the problems you have?

My SSP-800 just arrived and works good so far. However it was assembled in China, it was supposed to be a Canada made unit but that did not happen.

My primary question is: Regardless of where it's assembled, most printed circuit boards, and components inside are not made in North America and never were in the last few years. I would think that issues with something breaking would be more related to component quality/manufacturing rather than where it's assembled. Assuming (I know that's a stretch) that employees are trained properly to assemble something, the country in which that is done should not be an issue, and if it was then the item would have a problem out of the box.

I don't like Classe being made in China, but that does not mean it's going to be a POS because it is. For the sake of discussion...I would think where something is engineered and designed, what capacitors, resistors, transformers, wires, connectors and printed circuit boards are chosen would be at the heart of how well it works, how long it lasts, and how it sounds. With that in mind, where it is assembled is only relevant to everything being properly connected and installed inside the box. I have own a Lenovo laptop and a Macbook Pro, both made on China but designed in North America. They work great! I'm hoping my made in China Classe SSP-800 lives up to my expectations. If it does not, I will not likely blame the country in which it was assembled for any failures.

I'm seeking feedback related to where the components are made vs. where it's assembled.

I agree that North America is losing jobs to overseas production. I see no chance of that changing, those of us residing in North America need to get used to that idea, we are now part of a World Economy. Any debate about that only requires a review of the USA stock market to see what happens when another country economy falters...so does the USA. I'm not trying to get any debate going over this. I am trying to set aside any concerns over economies and just look at the Classe product and where we see it going. Does made in China mean it is no longer worth buying?

See Ya,

Steve

[mjb]

I don't like Classe being made in China, but that does not mean it's going to be a POS because it is.

The problem isn't necessarily the possibility of it being a POS, the problem is the savings are not not being passed on to the customer. Your SSP-800 cost 10 grand when it was built in Canada, by a guy in a union with a pension plan. It still costs 10 grand.

North America is losing jobs to overseas production.... those of us residing in North America need to get used to that idea

The western labour market has priced itself out of the running. How will we afford an SSP-800 when we're all eventually made redundant in favor of a chinese worker/manufacturer anyway? Chinese credit?

[madmac]

Well....the best way to describe it is with something a little different then Audio components. Think of acoustic guitars for instance. A higher end acoustic guitar made to sound nice here and in many other countries....including Korea, will be made with the end sound in mind. Does the guitar sound good....does it have good intonation and sustain and be a pleasure to play and listen to?. Well, in my experience based on what I've seen in stores lately, the Chinese mfr's do not understand or care about that. They will produce an utterly beautiful instrument..... on the outside, using fine tonewoods (sadly) but the inside has been put together shoddily and without care for the end sound in mind. The Bridge and nut will be made of plastic and the instrument will sound like crap. It's how it looks that matters and the end result (Sound) does not matter to them. What matters to them is that it is cheap, looks good and that it sells........end of story( It's a business mentality...not artistic). Why sell 10000 good instruments when you can sell 1 million ones because it looks good and it's cheap.....and of course, make more money!!. That's their business mentality and reality. Put a high end audio product on their assembly line and they will make that product as CHEAPLY as possible.....using workers that do NOT care......and.....not caring of the consequences or end result or end reliability. Just SELL IT !!. Hey....It's business right???.

[Kal Rubinson]

There's a difference between producing a product for marketing as you see it and producing one under specifications and contract as an OEM. The commercial purchaser can specify and oversee that the requirements are met. If they are not, the fault lies with both.

[Nolan B]

There's a difference between producing a product for marketing as you see it and producing one under specifications and contract as an OEM. The commercial purchaser can specify and oversee that the requirements are met. If they are not, the fault lies with both.

Here lies the problem. As soon as you outsource you loose control over quality. It doesn't matter if things are made to OEM standard. Ferrari couldnt open a plant in China and have the chinese make super high end cars to the spec and quality they are made today. Wouldn't happen.

The other part that pisses me off with the whole made in china thing is that we all know its WAY cheaper to make it there, so if the SSP 800 dropped by 30-40% (which would still leave an extra large margin for Classe) i wouldn't have a problem, but to pay the same for something now made in China... especially at the "top end" of it category?! The consumer doesn't get to see ANY of the benefit of WAY lower production costs...nothing? Im sorry, but there simply isn't a chance id bite.


The apple argument doesn't work here either. A multi billion dollar operation that can afford to set up shop in china to make assembly line type products "can" work...and guess what? We see a lower prices as a result.

Classe isnt Apple...not in any possible comparison.

I hate to say it, but a large reason I like the (previous) Classe brand was because it was made in Canada. If the SSP 800 was now priced at $3500 as a result of being made in China id bite....9k? Not a hope in hell...

[madmac]

There's a difference between producing a product for marketing as you see it and producing one under specifications and contract as an OEM. The commercial purchaser can specify and oversee that the requirements are met. If they are not, the fault lies with both.

Hi Kal....I agree about the whole OEM and contract mfr thing but Rotel in particular has been having reliability issues since they have been Manufacturing their units in China and I can't help but make the connection. Like you said at the end of your statement......"the fault lies with both" and it does!!. But then again, China is VERY far away!!!. Incidentally, I used to be in the electronic component industry and I can tell you this, there are a lot of cheap, Chinese knockoff, unreliable electronic components out there and it would not surprise me in the least if these Chinese contract Mfr's were using them to save money in their production costs. Hence, the failures we have been seeing in Rotel products lately!.

[Kal Rubinson]

Here lies the problem. As soon as you outsource you loose control over quality. It doesn't matter if things are made to OEM standard.

It really depends on how it is done, of course. I am not making any direct parallel in terms of market niche but, imho, the PSB speakers now made in China are technically, structurally and esthetically superior to the earlier Canada-made lines. This is due, in no small part, to Paul Barton spending a large part of his life going to, from and in China, himself. Also, I believe that, aside for the 800 series, all B&W production is now in China at their own factories. One can lose control but one can maintain it.

[beden1]

Here lies the problem. As soon as you outsource you loose control over quality. It doesn't matter if things are made to OEM standard. Ferrari couldnt open a plant in China and have the chinese make super high end cars to the spec and quality they are made today. Wouldn't happen.

The other part that pisses me off with the whole made in china thing is that we all know its WAY cheaper to make it there, so if the SSP 800 dropped by 30-40% (which would still leave an extra large margin for Classe) i wouldn't have a problem, but to pay the same for something now made in China... especially at the "top end" of it category?! The consumer doesn't get to see ANY of the benefit of WAY lower production costs...nothing? Im sorry, but there simply isn't a chance id bite.


The apple argument doesn't work here either. A multi billion dollar operation that can afford to set up shop in china to make assembly line type products "can" work...and guess what? We see a lower prices as a result.

Classe isnt Apple...not in any possible comparison.

I hate to say it, but a large reason I like the (previous) Classe brand was because it was made in Canada. If the SSP 800 was now priced at $3500 as a result of being made in China id bite....9k? Not a hope in hell...

There is no consumer value created with Classe moving production to China, either in quality or price. As far as I'm concerned, Classe has totally lost it's identity with this move and it looks like B&W is not far behind them, save for the 800 Series line of speakers, for now.

I was recently helping a friend of mine track the delivery of his 2012 BMW 328ix that he was originally expecting delivery in the states by the middle of November. He later got notice that the delivery was for the end of December and he couldn't figure out why the delay. I found out that his particular car model was now assembled in South Africa instead of in Germany, which neither of us even knew that BMW produced any of the 3 Series models outside of Germany. Needless to say, my friend is not happy to know that his BMW was not produced in Germany.

If buying a German car, where would you want your car to be produced? If buying electronics from a Canadian company, what is the point if it's not produced in the supposed country of origin?

[slauten]

To my knowledge...the plant where Classe is being made is owned by B&W, therefore they do have responsibility for quality control. They do anyway, but more if they own the factory.

I will say again I don't like the change, it concerns me. However I wonder how much labor cost is related to assembling a SSP-800 or an amp, or a pre-amp? Let's say a SSP-800 has a MSRP of $9,500, dealer cost of between 30%-40% less of MSRP. Let's say between $5,700-$6,650 dealer cost. At this point I want to discuss the materials cost. I doubt that Classe is going to change the internal parts just because it's being assembled in China, where the internal parts come from is not known, but it's safe to say it's not Canada. Following what I think is a reasonable profit margin...I will use 40%-50% profit margin for Classe (keep in mind this includes all fixed overhead costs, advertising, insurance, etc) that leaves $2,850 $3,325 as raw cost to build a SSP-800 including labor. I don't know how long it takes to put the parts inside the chassis, but would think labor could not be more than 35% of raw cost, somewhere around $950-$1,108. In my opinion labor is more likely 10% of cost or $285-$332. IMO Classe makes no more than 10% net profit, or about $500-$650 per SSP-800. Pretty reasonable profit in the big picture of things. I realize that my numbers are at best a scientific wild ass guess. However I do job costing at the company I own, and labor/materials is something I'm used to estimating. My opinion says that at best Classe is saving $500-$1,000 by moving manufacturing to China. Some of those savings are reduced by increased raw material costs over the last several years, and since Classe market is most likely largest in the USA...shipping costs are increased. I'm almost certain the cost savings move to China nets Classe no more than $500 per unit. Likely less.

In summary I agree the concept of an item being made in the country in which it is designed makes sense, and in most cases is preferable. However...most large car manufacturers have worldwide assembly plants. BMW assembles the X Series SUV, and some cars in the USA. Toyota makes all of it's USA sold vehicles except the Land Cruiser in the USA. I wonder where all of the electronics for these vehicles are made?

FYI-Classe is not printing the owners manual, instead it comes on a USB flash drive. They claim this is greener, saves on shipping costs, and also allows you to do software updates via USB.

I know this is a long post, so to close I will say that in my opinion there is no way Classe is saving thousands of dollars by moving manufacturing to China, and in addition I doubt that the materials going inside the box have changed, or where they are made has changed. My question to this forum is pretty simple:

What if the move to China does not change anything about the finished product? What if it works just as well, stays just as reliable, and Classe products continue to compete in the high end audio market just as well as they always have?

I'm not saying that will happen, but I think that pretty much is Classe's vision with the move. Control costs so they can continue to compete in the high end audio market, maintain their reputation, and hopefully continue their reputation as one of the best audio equipment companies in the world. At this point I think it's up to Classe to prove to us they can do it. Until they fail I will take a leap of faith that Dave Nauber and Classe know what they are doing.

See Ya,
Steve

[Glen B]

Toyota makes all of it's USA sold vehicles except the Land Cruiser in the USA.

I believe Toyota has always had vehicles assembled in the country/region where they are going to be sold, versus building in Japan and shipping to the destination country. Some countries have models unique to the region. How many Americans have ever heard of Toyota models like Avensis, Auris, Prado, Fortuner or Hilux ?

[Alaric]

The aspect of this debate that seems to have escaped notice is this: China has made clear its intention to supplant MY country as a world leader. I don't buy the defeatist BS stating "we can't do anything about it". That's loser talk for losers. China is the self-avowed economic enemy of my nation and my people. I won't support that regardless of savings or (mostly imaginary) "good as" quality control. I don't care if I can buy a Krell EVO for $20-if it supports my enemies I won't buy it for $.20. I don't give a crap for a 'world economy' or specious arguments put forth by those who can't comprehend this country's manufacturing potential. We need to stop rolling over for every yo-yo who wants us to hold economic hands and sing Kumbaya as a funeral dirge for America. That includes the jackasses in our government and the greedy s.o.b.s in the boardrooms. As for the Manchurian Candidate in the White House... :evil:

[garak]

There is no consumer value created with Classe moving production to China, either in quality or price. As far as I'm concerned, Classe has totally lost it's identity with this move and it looks like B&W is not far behind them, save for the 800 Series line of speakers, for now.

I was recently helping a friend of mine track the delivery of his 2012 BMW 328ix that he was originally expecting delivery in the states by the middle of November. He later got notice that the delivery was for the end of December and he couldn't figure out why the delay. I found out that his particular car model was now assembled in South Africa instead of in Germany, which neither of us even knew that BMW produced any of the 3 Series models outside of Germany. Needless to say, my friend is not happy to know that his BMW was not produced in Germany.

If buying a German car, where would you want your car to be produced? If buying electronics from a Canadian company, what is the point if it's not produced in the supposed country of origin?

The essence is in the design. Manufacturing is a process that can be replicated anywhere.

Anyway, BMWs being made in South Africa is nothing new. They have been there for many years. I didn't realize how many, until I looked it up. According to wikipedia, they've been building cars there since 1968. The plant in SA has been making 3 series primarily since 94. Seems that hasn't hurt the 3 series' reputation. It's been considered the benchmark of the class all throughout that time.


As far as Classé and moving production to China. How much "manufacturing" does Classé actually do? Don't they just primarily assemble circuit boards and components from other manufacturers anyway? If that is the case, any monkey can screw in a circuit board. There is no value added there by having a canadian vs a chinese turn a screw driver.