Battles of the DAC

[wettou]

So here we go which one has the best DACs for analogue two channels?

the SSP-800 or the Oppo BDP-95

Oppo BDP-95 DACs: SABRE32 Reference Audio DAC

http://www.esstech.com/index.php?p=products_DAC

vs

Classé SSP-800 DACs

Texas Instruments/Burr Brown PCM1792 [One for each pair in differential mode.] (L & R, C & S and AUX1 & AUX2)

http://focus.ti.com/docs/prod/folders/print/pcm1792.html

Texas Instruments/Burr Brown PCM1796 [One for each pair in differential mode.] (SL & SR and RL & RR)

http://focus.ti.com/docs/prod/folders/print/pcm1796.html

[aarsoe]

Not very easy to say. Have heard DACs that, that even though they were based on the same chip, sounded totally different..
So in my opinion only a controlled demo will tell you..

Can add that a lot of people tell me that the DAC in the SSP-800 is just as good as the one in the CDP-502 (they are in fact the same, although the 502 have a double set of DACs in differential mode, vs the SSP-800 that only uses a single DAC) but in my mind the CDP-502 sounds a lot better.
So personal taste also has a lot to say,,

[mjb]

Not very easy to say. Have heard DACs that, that even though they were based on the same chip, sounded totally different..
So in my opinion only a controlled demo will tell you..

Agreed. The circuit design as a whole will make a difference to how the DAC sounds, as will the power supply and output sections - to ask which chip is better ignores the bigger picture. I'll put my money on the SSP-800 though (for the reason stated).

[Eliav]

Hi guys
I do not own an SSP 800, yet, during my recent endeavors looking for the better and more refined source, i was disappointed to find that my beloved cdp 202's dual DAC's were not the best thing around, at least from my ears stand point. When I auditioned the cdp 202 bypassed with an external high end DAC ( Chord QBD 76 ),I felt that the external DAC improved the sound dramatically in all aspects. I found the difference worthy of the price on that DAC, and ended up purchasing it.
My conclusion is that even with a high end brand such as Classe, compromises are always made ( in this case the internal DAC's) so that the final product is reasonably priced. I assume this also applies for the SSP 800
cheers.

[stuofsci02]

Eliav,

It is funny you mention the Chord QBD76. I did some heavy auditioning on this unit compared to my Oppo BDP-83SE a couple of weeks ago. What a fantastic DAC. It was definately amazing. I found though that the 83SE did such a good job (albeit not at the level of the QBD76) that for the cost there are other weaker links in my systems that first need attention. I can completely understand adding this unit though once all of the other parts of my system are taken care of.

I also auditioned the Chord Peach DAC which is about a 1/4 of the price of the QBD76. It was nice, but I preferred the 83SE to it.

Does anyone feel the Oppo 95 will be a step up from the 83SE when it comes to the Stereo outs?

[Eliav]

Stuofsci02

I agree . a balanced system is the way to go. In my case, I felt mine was fairly balanced, I actually was about to upgrade my amps first (cam400 to cam600), yet when I auditioned these amps with the qbd 76, I knew this was it. haven't looked back since.
BTW a happy new year to every on on this forum.
Eliav

[wettou]

I actually was about to upgrade my amps first (cam400 to cam600), yet when I auditioned these amps with the qbd 76, I knew this was it. haven't looked back since. BTW a happy new year to every on on this forum. Eliav

EliaV appy new year to you to, did you upgrade the amps?

[Eliav]

No. Iwas not impressed with the difference btween my amps and the newer ones, rather,I was amazed by the DAC performance. I may upgrade the amps in the future but like said, I feel that my system is fairly balanced ,for now... :W

[stuofsci02]

Eliav,

I am partial to Chord gear, but I think the QBD76 may currently be the best DAC out there. I have heard and read too many stories of people buying and praising a multithousand dollar DAC only to drop it like a hot potato once they hear the Chord.

Have you tried out any of the Chord Amplifier/Pre-Amp combinations?

Cheers,

Stuart

[Eliav]

I have not. I am very happy with my Classe cp 700 pre and the two CAM 400 mono blocks. I would not mind auditioning any of Chord's components if I had a chance to.

[stuofsci02]

I am very happy with my Classe cp 700 pre and the two CAM 400 mono blocks.

No doubt.. You have quite an amazing setup!

[Eliav]

Thanks! :T

[HedgeHog]

Digging this up for those who did get an Oppo BDP-95 with their SSP-800. So is using the Oppo's DAC better or worse than HDMI out and using the SSP's?

I'm wondering if it's worth the upgrade.

Cheers,
-H

[Srrndhound]

Something to consider is that the SSP has internal upsampling to 96 kHz, which, while not the DAC, per se, nonetheless plays a positive role in the sound.

[wettou]

Digging this up for those who did get an Oppo BDP-95 with their SSP-800. So is using the Oppo's DAC better or worse than HDMI out and using the SSP's? I'm wondering if it's worth the upgrade. Cheers,
-H

For stereo using XLR from Oppo is amazing, if all you use is HDMi save your $

[HedgeHog]

Thx Roger and Wettou,

But to be very explicit, is the 2ch sound out of the BDP-95 better via XLR or HDMI?

-H

[wettou]

Thx Roger and Wettou, But to be very explicit, is the 2ch sound out of the BDP-95 better via XLR or HDMI? -H

In my humble opinion the 2ch sound out of the BDP-95 is better via XLR than HDMi :T

Especially with CA-M600 and 800 Diamond :B

[madmac]

The amount of effort, thought, and technology that went into the DAC's and other analog sections of the BDP-95 almost assures that it will outperform most DAC's within processors and receivers. Use the analog out's I say !!. That's what that unit was designed for. If not, just get the BDP-93 for much less and use the HDMI.

[wettou]

Well

- DAC in Oppo BDP-95
SABRE32 Reference Audio DAC
http://www.esstech.com/index.php?p=products_DAC- The DAC (Digital-to-Analog Converter) is one of the most important components for digital audio playback. The SABRE32 Reference ES9018 from ESS Technology is the world’s best performing 32-bit audio DAC solution targeted for high-end consumer applications and professional studio equipment. With the ESS patented 32-bit Hyperstream™ DAC architecture and Time Domain Jitter Eliminator, the SABRE32 Reference DAC delivers an unprecedented DNR (Dynamic Range) of up to 135dB and THD+N (Total Harmonic Distortion plus Noise) of -120dB, the industry’s highest performance level that will satisfy even the most demanding audio enthusiast.

The BDP-95 uses two ES9018 DAC chips - one for the 7.1-channel output, and another for the dedicated stereo output.

DAC for SSP-800
- Texas Instruments/Burr Brown PCM1792 [One for each pair in differential mode.] (L & R, C & S and AUX1 & AUX2)
- Texas Instruments/Burr Brown PCM1796 [One for each pair in differential mode.] (SL & SR and RL & RR)

The question is which ones are best!!

[londoner]

Does anyone know what DACs are used in the new CP-800? It doesn't specify in the press release.

[londoner]

Does anyone know what DACs are used in the new CP-800? It doesn't specify in the press release.

to answer my own question, this article claims they are Wolfson 8741 DACs

http://audiophilereview.com/preamps/why-classe-bet-the-farm-on-the-cp-800-stereo-preamp-and-why-its-going-to-pay-off.html

[ukwildcat]

I suppose my input isn't to the detail that people would like, but..

Being an Engineer myself, I understand the urge to compare things on various technical levels. I agree with aarsoe - it's more than just the sum of the parts. Various different circuit designs, power supplies, etc. have a BIG impact on the end result.

While digital has changed A LOT - and puts most hi-fi companies in jeopardy - the analog sections are still where the difference is made (for the most part), and so what DAC a given component uses is not really the most important part. There are still people using SHARCs, and while it's an ANCIENT design, there's nothing wrong with it.

That said.. I chose the SSP for THREE reasons..

1. It was the best-sounding MULTICHANNEL system I had ever heard.
2. It has the best-sounding BYPASS I had ever heard.

When I auditioned it in my own system, I discovered..

3. It has the best DACs I had ever heard.

The SSP/5300 combo completely replaced an all-Mark Levinson two-channel system.
It was OLDER ML, I'll grant you, but I think that still says a lot.

ALSO with that said, I have never had the pleasure of hearing a CHORD DAC. For many years now, people / reviewers / etc. CONSISTENTLY rave about them. They don't always have nice things to say about their other components, but as to their DACs, no one ever seems to fault them.

I guess it rather depends on what you like. I mean, I know a lot of Classe buyers also buy B&W - I guess for obvious reasons - but B&W has never suited my taste. I buy Aerial speakers, because I find them very warm and musical. B&W is perfectly fine - I have bought them for family members based on their needs and the fact that while I can't find anything WRONG even with a cheap pair of B&Ws, they don't draw me in.

I say the same for Wilson. WONDERFUL speakers. PERFECT for theater. Not my pick for music, although I do like them a lot. Had I been able to afford them when I started in this hobby, I might have gone Wilson.

I heard the less expensive Revels too - also very very nice. Rather hard to pick between those and Aerials, side by side, but again the Aerials just won me over.

Now, you can nitpick their various designs all you like, but it does come down to how you like it.

At one time I nearly went with Linn electronics. Didn't like their speakers much - but they would have done the job. Same with Meridian. In fact, my dealer - who was the largest Meridian dealer before they kicked MERIDIAN to the curb for all the problems they had with them.. I said "well, what about Meridian?"

He said: "Do you like how their speakers sound?"
Me: "Um.. No."
Dealer said: "Then we don't ever have to talk about them again."

<OK, not a lesson in matching - that's just how Meridian was>

Some like the "tube" sound. I LIKE it, but I'm not willing to put up with it.
I don't like it much better, either - digital has come A LONG way.

OK, a bit of a rant - sorry, but this is my hobby.

Does the Oppo sound better than the SSP? No, it doesn't, in my opinion.
A friend has been looking to upgrade on the cheap and has been asking about various Japanese brands (Denon, Integra, Marantz, etc. - yes I know most of these aren't actually Japanese anymore). I said they're fine - Marantz in particular. But compared to his American tastes, he will find most of it "bright" or "lean."

So I loaned him my old (unused) Proceed HPA2 (VERY American!) amp to play with his old Lexicon DC-2 (very digital-sounding in those days). BOOM. Instant satisfaction. But he would fine a "foreign" brand not to his liking.

Same with me. I like American / Canadian "sounds."
Some like the British "sounds."
I did pick Arcam for the second system, don't forget - but it sounded better than any other British gear I auditioned.
Some like things that are pretty in gilded cages (Goldmund. Seriously?)

In that respect, at a given level of high-quality, well-engineered components, there isn't much of a range of "best." It always comes down to preference.

Oh, also, in my totally unqualified opinion, Classe has with Delta and CT-series components pushed the edge of the "price / performance" ratio. Yes, you can get better - for three times the money (or more). And it's a very small difference.

The point of diminishing returns has been reached, and proven. At least to my ears.

[stuofsci02]

In case anyone is interested in a great DAC for extremely cheap, give the Grant Fidelity DAC-09 a shot.. I just got mine a couple of days ago. Bought it for something to play with. At $215 bucks shipped to your door, it is quite amazing. I am currently putting it head to head with my Oppo 83SE and while they do sound different I must admit that they are on similar levels. On some songs I prefer the Oppo, on others I like the DAC-09.. It also gets rave reviews as a headphone amp although I am not into that (yet).

Note that this is a tube DAC. I am using the stock Chinese 6N3 tube that came with it. Apparently more gains can be had from swapping to a WE5670 tube for about $11.

Cheers!

[madmac]

What are you using as a transport for the Grant Fidelity ?

[stuofsci02]

What are you using as a transport for the Grant Fidelity ?

Oppo-83SE and Squeezebox Touch

[Maverick71]

What about a DAC like DAC Magic from Cambridge Audio? It uses dual Wolfson WM8740 and it's cheap.

For using as an USB DAC from a Mac or other PC source do you think it's better to connect the Mac/PC directly to the SSP800 using HDMI or use the DAC Magic (Mac/PC USB to DAC and then to analogue SSP800)?

Mav

[mjb]

For using as an USB DAC from a Mac or other PC source do you think it's better to connect the Mac/PC directly to the SSP800 using HDMI or use the DAC Magic (Mac/PC USB to DAC and then to analogue SSP800)?

HDMI to the SSP-800 with an HDMI Mac.
Otherwise, optical digital out to the SSP-800.
The SSP-800 is not a USB DAC.

[stuofsci02]

What about a DAC like DAC Magic from Cambridge Audio? It uses dual Wolfson WM8740 and it's cheap.

For using as an USB DAC from a Mac or other PC source do you think it's better to connect the Mac/PC directly to the SSP800 using HDMI or use the DAC Magic (Mac/PC USB to DAC and then to analogue SSP800)?

Mav

I have spent a few days with the DACMagic doing a lot of A/B testing (some blind). It is not bad, however I preferred my Oppo 83SE to it hands down. Based on this I would have to assume that my new DAC-09 (for $215) beats it too.

[aarsoe]

So - just got my BDP-95 in through the door and had it up and running in no time. First impressions compared to my SSP-800 is that it is a much "clearer" or "clean" sound with more focus on the details. The bottom end is still a bit vague but based on experience that is also the place were most improvements will be made once it has been playing for a while.
Compared to my CDP-502 it is not there yet, but I would not be surprised if it will end up sounding better in a week or two. However using the digital out from the Oppo to the SSP-800 I much prefer the analogue XLR out already now.
Will keep you posted as it improves over time. Have it on replay right now and intend to do so for a couple of days straight..

[stuofsci02]

So - just got my BDP-95 in through the door and had it up and running in no time. First impressions compared to my SSP-800 is that it is a much "clearer" or "clean" sound with more focus on the details. The bottom end is still a bit vague but based on experience that is also the place were most improvements will be made once it has been playing for a while.
Compared to my CDP-502 it is not there yet, but I would not be surprised if it will end up sounding better in a week or two. However using the digital out from the Oppo to the SSP-800 I much prefer the analogue XLR out already now.
Will keep you posted as it improves over time. Have it on replay right now and intend to do so for a couple of days straight..

COOL!

[madmac]

COOL!

Other than the sound, what are your overall impressions of the unit.....the remote....build quality etc?. Any problems or issues with the unit so far?

[aarsoe]

Have had it on replay for the entire day running a CD. Only thing that have surprised me is that the fan is running. Not loud but I am glad that I have a mesh door in my cabinet to dampen it. The cabinet is totally open on the back side and air can pass through the mesh, so it is not due to lack of air circulation. However looking at the specs it does use 45 watt in use, so guess I am not that surprised..

[aarsoe]

In terms of build quality it does look ok - but compared to my Marantz SACD player it does feel a bit flimsy. Even more if I compare it to my Classe CDP-502. In other words typical pressed plates and not really solid. The connectors are ok, but I would probably look to upgrade those pretty quickly if it can be done..

The remote is the same as the previous version, but I did find it easy to use straight out of the box.

[Maverick71]

I have spent a few days with the DACMagic doing a lot of A/B testing (some blind). It is not bad, however I preferred my Oppo 83SE to it hands down. Based on this I would have to assume that my new DAC-09 (for $215) beats it too.

As I understand, you prefer the analog outs of the 83SE to the DACMagic, right?

I have the Oppo 83NE, but my thinking is more in line with using the MacMini directly to the HDMI input of the SSP800 (using the Classé as DAC) vs putting the DACMagic in between (USB out of the MacMini to DACMagic and then XLR to SSP800 input).

I ripped my entire CD collection to lossless files and am using iPad's remote to control it.

Mav

[mjb]

I have the Oppo 83NE, but my thinking is more in line with using the MacMini directly to the HDMI input of the SSP800 (using the Classé as DAC) vs putting the DACMagic in between (USB out of the MacMini to DACMagic and then XLR to SSP800 input).

I have a MacMini connected via HDMI to an SSP-800, and I'm more than pleased with the results. IMO there is no need for an external or USB DAC, the SSP-800 is more than up to the job. The Mini recognises the processor during the HDMI handshake, and auto configures the "Audio MIDI Setup".

I ripped my entire CD collection to lossless files and am using iPad's remote to control it.

This is the way to go

[stuofsci02]

As I understand, you prefer the analog outs of the 83SE to the DACMagic, right?

Mav

Yep!