Classe Revamps Delta Series Amps

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  • wettou
    Ultra Senior Member
    • May 2006
    • 3389

    Classe Revamps Delta Series Amps

    Interesting quote:

    Montreal - Classe will go to the CEDIA Expo to replace four of its five high-end Delta series amplifiers, whose enhancements include an active heat-sink system to maintain ideal operating temperature throughout a listening session for best sonic performance.

    All four ship in September, marking the brand's largest new product launch since 2004. The amps are the $5,500 300-watt-mono CA-M300, $7,000 600-watt mono CA-M600, $7,000 2x300-watt CA-2300, and $9,500 5x300-watt CA-5300. They'll join the carryover 2x100-watt CA-2100, which now carries a promotional price of $2,750, down from the regular $4,000.

    The active-cooling system, called ICTunnel, uses microprocessor controls and sensors to maintain the amplifiers' ideal operating temperature, no matter how hard the amp is driven, throughout a listening session, the company said. Amps deliver their best sonic performance when warmed to their ideal operating temperature, the company explained. Because few listeners know what their amp's ideal operating temperature is and how long it takes to achieve it, ICTunnel brings the new amps to their ideal temperature within 15 minutes of initial power-on and holds that temperature, the company noted.

    With all amplifiers that use passive heatsinks, said brand development executive VP Dave Nauber, the time it takes to reach an ideal operating temperature "depends on how loud they are playing, how difficult the speaker load, the ambient air temp and whether they are out in the open or not. It also depends on the heatsink designs, which are usually thick pieces of metal that take a long time to heat up." However long it takes, however, "there is no way to stop them from running right through the ideal temperature."

    For example, he said, Classe tested its new CT-M600 and an older 2x100 CA-200 driving a four ohm load at 1/8 power. The CT-M600 (at 155W) was at its ideal temperature in about 11 minutes and stayed there throughout the test, he said. At only 50 watts, however, the CA-200 took about 23 minutes to reach the same temp stayed there only for about a minute and continued to get hotter over the 71 minute test, he explained.

    Two other key enhancements in the new Delta amps include a miniaturized driver-stage circuit, said to be almost perfectly free of noise and distortion, and the use of a single six-layer circuit board for amplification to significantly shorten the audio-signal path. The result is said to be superior time-domain performance and greater transparency.

    A new power supply design enables the amplifiers to consume only 0.5 watts in standby mode.

    All four new models retail their predecessors' large, rounded face and aluminum-steel construction. Also carried over are RS-232, CAN Bus, and IR ports and DC triggers, but the new models add USB.


    Farming looks mighty easy when your plow is a pencil, and you're a thousand miles from the corn field."Dwight D. Eisenhower
  • mjb
    Super Senior Member
    • Mar 2005
    • 1483

    #2
    Thanks for the info :T
    - Mike

    Main System:
    B&W 802D, HTM2D, SCMS
    Classé SSP-800, CA-2200, CA-5100

    Comment

    • btf1980
      Senior Member
      • Aug 2007
      • 704

      #3
      Where did you get the info from?
      A camera, passport, good music, good food and good company is all I need.

      Comment

      • btf1980
        Senior Member
        • Aug 2007
        • 704

        #4
        Nevermind, found it on my twitter feed.

        A camera, passport, good music, good food and good company is all I need.

        Comment

        • gerardhn
          Senior Member
          • Jun 2005
          • 352

          #5
          Some thoughts.
          -good they keep the round design, so we can mix old and new line
          -Low energy consumption at standby: good ! but worse they invent and sell this this at 2010. Dont know the old standby consumption btw..
          -Temperature regulation. Story sounds good. There is indeed a warm up time of 30 min before they really sound perfect, somtimes you notice that, sometimes not. But the more stuff... the more problems I always think. What if it doesnot work????? repair costs or it switches to non controlled temperature mode as we have??
          -USB, what do I do with usb on an end amp?
          -Prices..In the "old" time the choice was 5500 $ for CA2200 or 11000 for CAM400. Now 7000 $ for CA2300, and 11000/14000 for 300/600 monoamps.
          Normally in electronics there should be a tendency you get more for less $ over time....... we dont follow the normal law??

          My conclusion...... try to buy the old line in sale as their prices will go down now..??
          Can save 50% compared to new models.

          Comment

          • wettou
            Ultra Senior Member
            • May 2006
            • 3389

            #6
            I am not sure I buy the whole temperature story, I am curious as to what other people think?
            Farming looks mighty easy when your plow is a pencil, and you're a thousand miles from the corn field."Dwight D. Eisenhower

            Comment

            • wxmanunr
              Member
              • Dec 2008
              • 64

              #7
              Temps

              Originally posted by wettou
              I am not sure I buy the whole temperature story, I am curious as to what other people think?
              My Classe amps sound better 20-30 minutes after they are turned on. My wife even notices. Now, I haven't noticed any degradation when they get hotter, but my ambient temperatures are usually 72F or less.

              Think about a car starting at 0F weather. It's emissions and fuel economy are worse than normal, until the car reaches it optimum temperature.

              wxmanunr

              Comment

              • wettou
                Ultra Senior Member
                • May 2006
                • 3389

                #8
                Originally posted by wxmanunr
                My Classe amps sound better 20-30 minutes after they are turned on. My wife even notices. Now, I haven't noticed any degradation when they get hotter, but my ambient temperatures are usually 72F or less. Think about a car starting at 0F weather. It's emissions and fuel economy are worse than normal, until the car reaches it optimum temperature. wxmanunr
                This I agree with the warm up time but how about that statement:

                "The CT-M600 (at 155W) was at its ideal temperature in about 11 minutes and stayed there throughout the test, he said. At only 50 watts, however, the CA-200 took about 23 minutes to reach the same temp stayed there only for about a minute and continued to get hotter over the 71 minute test, he explained."

                Does that mean the old Delta serie only operate at best temperature for only one minute?
                Farming looks mighty easy when your plow is a pencil, and you're a thousand miles from the corn field."Dwight D. Eisenhower

                Comment

                • beden1
                  Super Senior Member
                  • Oct 2006
                  • 1676

                  #9
                  Originally posted by wettou
                  This I agree with the warm up time but how about that statement:

                  "The CT-M600 (at 155W) was at its ideal temperature in about 11 minutes and stayed there throughout the test, he said. At only 50 watts, however, the CA-200 took about 23 minutes to reach the same temp stayed there only for about a minute and continued to get hotter over the 71 minute test, he explained."

                  Does that mean the old Delta serie only operate at best temperature for only one minute?
                  How do they test for the "ideal" temperature in relation to sound quality, particularly when there are other components in the mix?

                  Comment

                  • gerardhn
                    Senior Member
                    • Jun 2005
                    • 352

                    #10
                    Dont make it too scientific.!

                    For me the classe message is clear: The new line has a controlled temparature. (I assume adjusting bias current through amp), the old line has not. There the nternal temperature is depending on duty and environment and is what it is.

                    The relation between temperature and sound quality will not be lineair!.

                    Comment

                    • Glen B
                      Super Senior Member
                      • Jul 2004
                      • 1106

                      #11
                      Originally posted by wettou
                      I am not sure I buy the whole temperature story, I am curious as to what other people think?
                      My take on this is that the output stage has an ideal bias range that varies about ± 2 mV. As heatsink temperature increases, the bias compensation designed into the amp will make automatic adjustments to prevent thermal runaway of the output devices. However, the point will come as the heatsink temperature rises where bias is outside the ideal range. If one could maintain a tightly regulated heatsink temp, that should help to maintain bias in the ideal range and optimum performance.

                      Originally posted by wettou
                      Does that mean the old Delta serie only operate at best temperature for only one minute?
                      It seems the comparison was to a legacy amp, the CA-200, not a Delta series amp, although the latter probably also have this "problem".


                      Comment

                      • RebelMan
                        Ultra Senior Member
                        • Mar 2005
                        • 3139

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Glen B
                        My take on this is that the output stage has an ideal bias range that varies about ± 2 mV. As heatsink temperature increases, the bias compensation designed into the amp will make automatic adjustments to prevent thermal runaway of the output devices. However, the point will come as the heatsink temperature rises where bias is outside the ideal range. If one could maintain a tightly regulated heatsink temp, that should help to maintain bias in the ideal range and optimum performance.


                        It seems the comparison was to a legacy amp, the CA-200, not a Delta series amp, although the latter probably also have this "problem".
                        The problem is the tests were seemingly done under static load conditions. As we know music is dynamic and the demands placed on the amplifier will be too. I suspect some form of active cooling is going on to maintain temperatures more so than bias regulation. A trade off I may not be so willing to adopt.

                        Furthermore, as temperatures rise they will eventually reach a point of thermodynamic equilibrium and only minor fluctuations, to slow to change and be noticed, would occur across the time domain. Given that most ambient room temperatures hover around 74-78 degrees an amplifier given sufficient room to breath will settle within their predetermined design parameters for optimal efficiency and performance (that's what passive heatsinks are designed to do).

                        It's reasonable to conclude that Classe' would not have been able to increase power output without a proportional increase in heatsink fin size and/or number thus requiring a significant chassis redesign to the existing model so an active cooling solution was employed instead.
                        "Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today."

                        Comment

                        • mjb
                          Super Senior Member
                          • Mar 2005
                          • 1483

                          #13
                          My guess is an "active cooling system" means they're using fans. If they're boasting about how fast the amp achieves its "ideal operating temperature", its because they're using small heat-sinks, and running the fans most of the time. You can use lots of fancy words to explain how its all microprocessor controlled, but I think late night listening might be spoiled by the fan and air noise, especially as its variable speed, which means they'll be perpetually whirring up and down. Powerful bass line, faster fans....
                          - Mike

                          Main System:
                          B&W 802D, HTM2D, SCMS
                          Classé SSP-800, CA-2200, CA-5100

                          Comment

                          • RebelMan
                            Ultra Senior Member
                            • Mar 2005
                            • 3139

                            #14
                            Originally posted by mjb
                            My guess is an "active cooling system" means they're using fans. If they're boasting about how fast the amp achieves its "ideal operating temperature", its because they're using small heat-sinks, and running the fans most of the time. You can use lots of fancy words to explain how its all microprocessor controlled, but I think late night listening might be spoiled by the fan and air noise, especially as its variable speed, which means they'll be perpetually whirring up and down. Powerful bass line, faster fans....
                            Indeed they must and this is why I have reason to believe this could be an area for concern. I have yet to find ANY active cooling system (a.k.a. cooling fans) that I could not hear in my environment.
                            "Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today."

                            Comment

                            • Blue-Eyes
                              Senior Member
                              • Dec 2002
                              • 162

                              #15
                              I don't like the active fans, more dust, more noise and more chanse of faillures......

                              The old ones, prices should be going down! USB? Nice for upgrading instead of the RS232 connection.
                              ------------------------------------------------------
                              Never drive faster than your Angel can fly!

                              Comment

                              • ray5
                                Senior Member
                                • Dec 2008
                                • 444

                                #16
                                Does anyone know from the past if the older ones dropped in price when new ones were released? Like wettou wrote the 2100 will have a promotional price?

                                Comment

                                • gerardhn
                                  Senior Member
                                  • Jun 2005
                                  • 352

                                  #17
                                  Ray5,

                                  I give you different answer, bur maybe thats what you want to know.

                                  I see prices "everywhere"' (how many classe shops do you see?) -30%, NOW.

                                  When you ask why, do you get new models? They say: we dont know... just want to have something new on the shelves...

                                  So time to shop and get your discount ...?

                                  Comment

                                  • mjb
                                    Super Senior Member
                                    • Mar 2005
                                    • 1483

                                    #18
                                    Its a bit hard to see, but the black part is now the air intake (I assume). Look forward to cleaning the dust from it.

                                    - Mike

                                    Main System:
                                    B&W 802D, HTM2D, SCMS
                                    Classé SSP-800, CA-2200, CA-5100

                                    Comment

                                    • wettou
                                      Ultra Senior Member
                                      • May 2006
                                      • 3389

                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by RebelMan
                                      Indeed they must and this is why I have reason to believe this could be an area for concern. I have yet to find ANY active cooling system (a.k.a. cooling fans) that I could not hear in my environment.
                                      Welcome back Rebel Man :T
                                      Farming looks mighty easy when your plow is a pencil, and you're a thousand miles from the corn field."Dwight D. Eisenhower

                                      Comment

                                      • wettou
                                        Ultra Senior Member
                                        • May 2006
                                        • 3389

                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by Blue-Eyes
                                        I don't like the active fans, more dust, more noise and more chanse of failures......

                                        The old ones, prices should be going down! USB? Nice for upgrading instead of the RS232 connection.
                                        Yes more moving part more failure risks, solid state drives anyone :B
                                        Farming looks mighty easy when your plow is a pencil, and you're a thousand miles from the corn field."Dwight D. Eisenhower

                                        Comment

                                        • hifiguymi
                                          Super Senior Member
                                          • Mar 2007
                                          • 1532

                                          #21
                                          The fans in the CT Series are whisper quiet so I'd assume the Delta Series will be the same. The CT-5300 I sold to SRT-10 Viper is very quiet, you can't hear the fan at all. It doesn't get much beyond a little warm and he's running 800Ds, an HTM1D and N802s in the rear. It sounds great as well.

                                          Eric

                                          Comment

                                          • style
                                            Super Senior Member
                                            • Feb 2006
                                            • 1562

                                            #22
                                            Hi Eric,

                                            Ok quiet but at how much dB? Listing a B&W800, htm1D&802 as rear....

                                            if I go place so a amps in a room, a normaly piece of "europe room" (smaller as the Usa dimension) after a 1 year of great great this cooling system will be the same?

                                            Whit the CT serie = a rack that make too a "isolation work" (I do that the rear is open..) will be better vs. the Detal cabinet?
                                            A Delta amp with the tunnel tecno on the top from a rack will be the same as the CT serie or the working parameters are different?

                                            thx
                                            style

                                            Comment

                                            • style
                                              Super Senior Member
                                              • Feb 2006
                                              • 1562

                                              #23
                                              edit
                                              question: ¨a new CT or the new Delta with inside a Ct??

                                              at this point I go with the CT and not with a Delta (appropriate technology of CT...)

                                              Comment

                                              • style
                                                Super Senior Member
                                                • Feb 2006
                                                • 1562

                                                #24
                                                ops: server busy

                                                Comment

                                                • aarsoe
                                                  Senior Member
                                                  • May 2004
                                                  • 795

                                                  #25
                                                  Is it just me, or dk the air intake on the new deltas not make it look a bit odd?
                                                  Think i would have prefered the intake being either under or above the faceplate. Especially since it does looks like we are now missing the leds for the number or channels. At least it does look like that in the above attached photo...

                                                  Comment

                                                  • SwainDtV
                                                    Member
                                                    • Sep 2008
                                                    • 84

                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by aarsoe
                                                    ... Especially since it does looks like we are now missing the leds for the number or channels. At least it does look like that in the above attached photo...
                                                    After adjusting the levels in Photoshop I don't see any additional led(s). I find this strange because I asked for an option to turn the leds off on the CA-5200. That was not possible because of security reasons.

                                                    Comment

                                                    • mjb
                                                      Super Senior Member
                                                      • Mar 2005
                                                      • 1483

                                                      #27
                                                      Security reasons? What? :roll:
                                                      That seems to be the blanket excuse for everything these days :cry:
                                                      SwainDtV, you can stick a piece of black tape over them
                                                      - Mike

                                                      Main System:
                                                      B&W 802D, HTM2D, SCMS
                                                      Classé SSP-800, CA-2200, CA-5100

                                                      Comment

                                                      • SwainDtV
                                                        Member
                                                        • Sep 2008
                                                        • 84

                                                        #28
                                                        Originally posted by mjb
                                                        Security reasons? What? :roll:
                                                        That seems to be the blanket excuse for everything these days :cry:
                                                        SwainDtV, you can stick a piece of black tape over them
                                                        Yeah a 2 cents tape on a pricey peace of equipment. I should have written safety reasons. ops:

                                                        Comment

                                                        • Skyblue
                                                          Senior Member
                                                          • Jun 2009
                                                          • 504

                                                          #29
                                                          Originally posted by SwainDtV
                                                          After adjusting the levels in Photoshop I don't see any additional led(s). I find this strange because I asked for an option to turn the leds off on the CA-5200. That was not possible because of security reasons.
                                                          Will the CT version come with leds too? Or are they less "secure"?
                                                          B&W 800 Diamond, B&W805S, B&W DB1, Classe SSP 800, DIY Icepower ASX2 600W monos, Ayre QB9, JPlay.

                                                          Comment

                                                          • Skyblue
                                                            Senior Member
                                                            • Jun 2009
                                                            • 504

                                                            #30
                                                            I don't really see the new delta series on the classe site. Will there be a delta 5300 to replace the 5200?
                                                            B&W 800 Diamond, B&W805S, B&W DB1, Classe SSP 800, DIY Icepower ASX2 600W monos, Ayre QB9, JPlay.

                                                            Comment

                                                            • wettou
                                                              Ultra Senior Member
                                                              • May 2006
                                                              • 3389

                                                              #31
                                                              Originally posted by Skyblue
                                                              I don't really see the new delta series on the classe site. Will there be a delta 5300 to replace the 5200?
                                                              It takes them a while to update their website, remember software engineering is not their strong skills ops:

                                                              Look we still don't have Dolby Volume and it has been out for two years now
                                                              Farming looks mighty easy when your plow is a pencil, and you're a thousand miles from the corn field."Dwight D. Eisenhower

                                                              Comment

                                                              • RebelMan
                                                                Ultra Senior Member
                                                                • Mar 2005
                                                                • 3139

                                                                #32
                                                                Originally posted by Skyblue
                                                                I don't really see the new delta series on the classe site. Will there be a delta 5300 to replace the 5200?
                                                                Yes. For each CT model there will be a corresponding Delta model.
                                                                "Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today."

                                                                Comment

                                                                • wettou
                                                                  Ultra Senior Member
                                                                  • May 2006
                                                                  • 3389

                                                                  #33
                                                                  Originally posted by RebelMan
                                                                  Yes. For each CT model there will be a corresponding Delta model.
                                                                  Too bad they did not upgrade the CA-3200 to CA-3300, I guess they didn't sell enough

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