Problems with DTS-HD MA 5.1 surround 24 BIT / 192 kHz

**wildtangent** · 21 April 2009, 08:14 Tuesday

Originally posted by SwainDtV

All audio tracks except the DTS-HD MA 5.1 surround track displays the correct audio information on Pioneer’s screen and on the SSP800 status page.

So what is the Pioneer displaying for this stream? The SSP800 displays the incoming streams sample rate. My guess is that the Pioneer is outputing 96KHz for decoded DTS-HD Master Audio sources.

**SwainDtV** · 21 April 2009, 08:53 Tuesday

Originally posted by wildtangent

So what is the Pioneer displaying for this stream? The SSP800 displays the incoming streams sample rate. My guess is that the Pioneer is outputing 96KHz for decoded DTS-HD Master Audio sources.

The Pioneer displays DTS-HD Master Audio 192 kHz 5.1CH.

**AV-OCD** · 21 April 2009, 23:28 Tuesday

I believe that playback of the SSP-800 maxes out at 96Khz. Even though the DACs in the 800 are capable of 192Khz, Classe found that the sound quality of these chips was optimal at 96Khz. Kinda like running a motor near redline (192) vs in the power band (96). The motor may be capable of high RPMs, but the best performance is at a lower rev.

I wouldn't worry too much about it, as no speaker made is capable of treble extension flat out to 96Khz anyway. The B&W diamond tweeter tops out at 33Khz, and while some ribbon tweets can hit above 40K, but that is still no where near 96K.

Edit: What doesn't make sense about your situation is that DTS Master HD is converted to PCM by the player before it reaches the SSP-800, so it should make no difference if you feed it uncompressed PCM or DTS.

**SwainDtV** · 22 April 2009, 07:37 Wednesday

Originally posted by AV-OCD

Edit: What doesn't make sense about your situation is that DTS Master HD is converted to PCM by the player before it reaches the SSP-800, so it should make no difference if you feed it uncompressed PCM or DTS.

Exactly. The Pioneer is set to decode everything and stream PCM out. That's why I cannot explain why the SSP800 status page displays 192 kHz sample rates for Dolby TrueHD and LPCM and 96 kHz for dts-HD.

The Pioneer shows very detailed information about video and audio separately. It's very informative. Pioneer displays 192 kHz for Dolby TrueHD, dts-HD Master Audio and Linear PCM. It also shows the streams are 24 bit and it shows the actual amount in regard to the maximum value. Both for video and audio. An example can be found here at post #979.

I checked Pioneer's manual and release notes, but there's no mention of a restriction for dts-HD sample rates. Before this recent major firmware update a dts-HD stream was decoded to dts-Core.

Anyway. I know I will not hear a difference between 96/192 kHz sample rates; so no worries. However I wonder what is happening here. Is Pioneer down converting the sample rate prior to streaming PCM out or is the SSP800 misinterpreting the incoming sample rate. I believe the SSP800 is not faulty because the incoming PCM stream has already been decoded. So I believe Pioneer performs a sneaky conversion to max. 96 kHz.

Ab

**wettou** · 22 April 2009, 18:27 Wednesday

An other one from 2L that has problems with the SSP-800!!!!

http://www.2l.musiconline.no/shop/displayAlbum.asp?id=36329&cid=&sid=

dena piano duo:
MOZART/GRIEG vol II
2L (2009)
Catalog no.: 2L57SABD
Genre: Art music :: Classical
Duration: 0:59:28
Format: MP3 - 320kbps

Enjoy this wonderful music for two pianos from two of history's greatest composers. Mozart was without a doubt one of Grieg's first and foremost musical inspirations. What is special about Grieg's adaptation of the Mozart Fantasia in C minor is that he has not reworked it in the traditional manner. Grieg's unusual achievement lies in the fact that he has retained Mozart's text unchanged, adding an entirely new part which is to be performed together with the original. When both parts are played, they interweave and become something entirely new. The Mozart/Grieg Fantasia for two pianos in C minor is on this album surrounded by Mozart's famous Sonata in D for two pianos and Grieg's only original work for two pianos, the lesser known masterpiece Old Norwegian Melody with variations.

Hybrid SACD + music Blu-ray
5.1 SURROUND + STEREO produced in DXD (Digital eXtreme Definition)
The hybrid SACD looks like a normal CD and plays on all standard players and computers.

**sikoniko** · 22 April 2009, 20:56 Wednesday

Originally posted by wettou

An other one from 2L that has problems with the SSP-800!!!!

can you define problems and share with us if it was first hand experience or how you came by that?

**wettou** · 23 April 2009, 00:43 Thursday

Originally posted by sikoniko

can you define problems and share with us if it was first hand experience or how you came by that?

I tried to demo the disc at a dealer without sucssess!!! The CD played fine the blu ray had problems.

We tried it with the same player on a Sony XA-5400ES and AV-6400ES combo and whoa impressive!!!!

**sikoniko** · 23 April 2009, 06:03 Thursday

Originally posted by wettou

I tried to demo the disc at a dealer without sucssess!!! The CD played fine the blu ray had problems.

We tried it with the same player on a Sony XA-5400ES and AV-6400ES combo and whoa impressive!!!!

Interesting. I can't imagine why it wouldn't play it at all. It's just a blu-ray. nothing special that I can tell.

**SwainDtV** · 14 May 2009, 11:33 Thursday

Originally posted by SwainDtV

All audio tracks except the DTS-HD MA 5.1 surround track displays the correct audio information on Pioneer’s screen and on the SSP800 status page. On the SSP800 status page DTS-HD MA 5.1 surround is 96 kHz instead of 192 kHz.

After some studying I have discovered some interesting facts. I believe both LX91 and SSP800 are displaying valid information for DTS-HD Master Audio 5.1 multichannel sound with a sampling frequency of 192 kHz and 24-bits of signal resolution.

According to the DTS Consumer White Paper for Blu-ray Disc the maximum DTS bit rate is 24.5 Mbps. For 2 channels a 192 kHz sampling frequency and 24-bits of signal resolution is supported. For up to 8 channels only 96 kHz sampling frequency and 24-bits of signal resolution is supported. This explains why the SSP800 displays a 96 kHz sampling frequency with the Blu-ray disc TRONDHEIMSOLISTENE: DIVERTIMENTI. The LX91 correctly displays a source rate of 192 kHz because this is the way the Blu-ray is mastered. The internal DTS decoder in the LX91 downsamples the source conform to DTS White Paper guidelines.

An example – uncompressed LPCM with 6 channels of:
192 kHz / 24-bits audio = 6 * 192 * 24 = 27.6 Mbps
192 kHz / 16-bits audio = 6 * 192 * 16 = 18.4 Mbps
96 kHz / 24-bits audio = 6 * 96 * 24 = 13.8 Mbps
96 kHz / 16-bits audio = 6 * 96 * 16 = 9.2 Mbps
48 kHz / 24-bits audio = 6 * 48 * 24 = 6.9 Mbps
48 kHz / 16-bits audio = 6 * 48 * 16 = 4.6 Mbps

Dolby TrueHD supports up to 18 Mbps on a Blu-ray disc. Up to 8 channels of 96 kHz / 24-bits audio and 6 channels of 192 kHz / 24-bits audio are supported. However 6 * 192 * 24 = 27.6 Mbps. That is 9.6 Mbps more than 18 Mbps.

I believe the Dolby TrueHD FAQ explains this. It shows examples where, due to compression, the peak rate is always lower than the source rate. Although an example with 6 channels of 192 kHz / 24-bits is not provided, it’s possible peak rate for 6 channels of 192 kHz / 24-bits audio is about 18 Mbps. In this case both LX91 and SSP800 display a 192 kHz sampling frequency.

Update:
In the LX91 HDMI Audio Out is set to PCM. All codecs are decoded to PCM.

Tonight I played the aforementioned Blu-ray disc and the peak rate indicated by the LX91 for the DTS-HD MA 6ch/192kHz/24b audio track is 15.61 Mbps. This is higher than uncompressed 6ch/96kHz/24b audio. I expected a peak rate lower than 13.8 Mbps due to compression. So now I am confused.

Even more confusing is the LPCM 2ch/192kHz/24b audio track. The SSP800 reports Dolby Digital EX with a sampling frequency of 88kHz.

The Dolby TrueHD 6ch/192kHz/24b audio track has a constant bit rate of 18.64 Mbps. So this must be the compressed (peak???) bit rate and not the actual uncompressed max bit rate of 27.6 Mbps. The SSP800 reports a sampling frequency of 192 kHz.

The LPCM 6ch/192kHz/24b audio track has a 27.64 Mbps bit rate and the SSP800 reports a sampling frequency of 192 kHz.

**Srrndhound** · 15 May 2009, 20:01 Friday

Originally posted by SwainDtV

Tonight I played the aforementioned Blu-ray disc and the peak rate indicated by the LX91 for the DTS-HD MA 6ch/192kHz/24b audio track is 15.61 Mbps. This is higher than uncompressed 6ch/96kHz/24b audio. I expected a peak rate lower than 13.8 Mbps due to compression. So now I am confused.

But you are comparing compressed 192 kHz audio to uncompressed 96 kHz audio. The 15.61 Mbps rate seems reasonable.

Even more confusing is the LPCM 2ch/192kHz/24b audio track. The SSP800 reports Dolby Digital EX with a sampling frequency of 88kHz.

Very strange that any 2-ch audio track will be flagged as EX.

The Dolby TrueHD 6ch/192kHz/24b audio track has a constant bit rate of 18.64 Mbps. So this must be the compressed (peak???) bit rate and not the actual uncompressed max bit rate of 27.6 Mbps. The SSP800 reports a sampling frequency of 192 kHz.

Yes, it's the compressed rate. It will appear almost constant since the FIFO caps the peaks.

**alebonau** · 15 May 2009, 21:15 Friday

Originally posted by SwainDtV

After some studying I have discovered some interesting facts. I believe both LX91 and SSP800 are displaying valid information for DTS-HD Master Audio 5.1 multichannel sound with a sampling frequency of 192 kHz and 24-bits of signal resolution.

According to the DTS Consumer White Paper for Blu-ray Disc the maximum DTS bit rate is 24.5 Mbps. For 2 channels a 192 kHz sampling frequency and 24-bits of signal resolution is supported. For up to 8 channels only 96 kHz sampling frequency and 24-bits of signal resolution is supported. This explains why the SSP800 displays a 96 kHz sampling frequency with the Blu-ray disc TRONDHEIMSOLISTENE: DIVERTIMENTI. The LX91 correctly displays a source rate of 192 kHz because this is the way the Blu-ray is mastered. The internal DTS decoder in the LX91 downsamples the source conform to DTS White Paper guidelines.

~.

not really sure why its downsampling to 96khz in the pio, perhaps a limitation of its decoder. somethign perhaps worth getting clarification on in the pio owners thread over on avs.

I have the sony bdp-s5000es and picked up this disc a while back, as posted back then have not come across any limitations on play back with the disc. all has come through as specd on the disc. note I bitstream for both dts-hdma and truehd to decode in the pre and ofcourse lpcm is justpassed through to my pre with no decoding to be done in the player or pre.

Originally posted by alebonau

picked this disc up this afternoon from local distributor and can confirm bitstreaming off my sony bdp-s5000es to my denon avp-a1hd that it passes through 5.1 24/192 for DTS-HDma and truehd. also tried the 5.1 24/192 track as well and that comes through as 24/192 5.1

a lovely sounding disc I havent compared between the formats or anything jsut listened to enjoy after switching between the various format to make sure works. It has a lovely ethereal sound to it. delicately detailed, enveloping and spacious is probably best how describe it - wel lthe tracks have listened to anyways.

will post back once done a bit more listening

and will give the sacd a shot through the sony scd-xa9000es I have once get a chance as well

might be worth contacting morten lindberg at 2L as well as the disc is fully to the blu-ray disc spec.

as per 2L Our DIVERTIMENTI is 100% according to the official Blu-ray specifications. Unfortunately all players are not. Due to the 192 kHz rate in MCH, not all 1st generation players has the processing power required for decoding, and therefore “cut corners” and down-sample or down-mix to stereo.

alternatively morten also posts on sacd-net where can be contacted and seems a pretty helpfull and friendly sort

**SwainDtV** · 16 May 2009, 10:40 Saturday

I'll test the disc again as soon as the SSP800 is able to decode HD bitstreams. I too would like to see if there are no limitations on play back with bitstreaming. If the SSP800 still reports 96 kHz than the Pio is limited.

I find the DTS Consumer White Paper confusing. The paper 'suggests' with DTS-HD up to 8 channels, only 96 kHz / 24 bit is supported.

Anyway the sound quality on this disc is great; even the 'legacy' DD 5.1 track.

**Srrndhound** · 16 May 2009, 11:29 Saturday

Originally posted by SwainDtV

I find the DTS Consumer White Paper confusing. The paper 'suggests' with DTS-HD up to 8 channels, only 96 kHz / 24 bit is supported.

The paper looks pretty clear: >>In the Blu-ray Disc format, DTS-HD is capable of up to 24.5 Mbps variable data rate, 7.1 discrete
channels, with a sampling frequency up to 96 kHz and 24-bits of signal resolution, and 192 kHz / 24 bits in 2-channel.<<

I guess what is not clear is how the disc claims 5.1 192 kHz when DTS does not state that is a supported condition. In their user guide for their Master Audio Suite encoder tool, they have some extra detail:

>>DTS-HD Master Audio™ - variable bit rate, bit-for-bit (lossless) encoded
streams with up to 7.1 channels from source files with sample rates up to
96kHz and in stereo from source files with a sample rate of 192 kHz

o For 192 kHz source material, HD DVD supports up to 2.0 channels and
Blu-ray supports up to 5.1 channels.<<

So here they clarify that 5.1/192 kHz lossless is possible.

**SwainDtV** · 16 May 2009, 18:16 Saturday

Originally posted by Srrndhound

For 192 kHz source material, HD DVD supports up to 2.0 channels and Blu-ray supports up to 5.1 channels.<<

So here they clarify that 5.1/192 kHz lossless is possible.

A recap of what I have understand so far.

The source is encoded in DTS-HD MA 5.1/192/24, which is allowed according to Master Audio Suite Encoder Tool User Guide. Hence the Pio reports 5.1/192/24.

The Pio decodes it to PCM 5.1/96/24 according to the Consumer White Paper. Hence the SSP800 reports a sampling frequency of 96 kHz.

With the upcoming SSP800 hardware upgrade, there is a chance that play back is not limited when bit streamed to the SSP800.

I'll wait and see.

Ab

**Srrndhound** · 16 May 2009, 23:44 Saturday

Originally posted by SwainDtV

The Pio decodes it to PCM 5.1/96/24 according to the Consumer White Paper. Hence the SSP800 reports a sampling frequency of 96 kHz.

Does the white paper say something about downsmpling 192 kHz? I suspect the player, if it is doing it, is doing so on its own--maybe to save some MIPs.

With the upcoming SSP800 hardware upgrade, there is a chance that play back is not limited when bit streamed to the SSP800.

I was under the impression that the SSP-800 will always downsample 192 to 96 kHz, as that's the rate the DACs are clocked. Are they changing that with the new DSP?

**SwainDtV** · 17 May 2009, 14:57 Sunday

Originally posted by Srrndhound

Does the white paper say something about downsmpling 192 kHz? I suspect the player, if it is doing it, is doing so on its own--maybe to save some MIPs.

In the White Paper is says:

DTS-HD Master Audio Features
• Up to 7.1 discrete channels with a sampling frequency of 96 kHz and 24 bits of signal resolution
• Up to 192 kHz sampling frequency and 24 bits of signal resolution for 2.0 channels

It's either 192 kHz with 2 channels or 96 kHz with up to 8 channels. To comply with DTS's own guidelines, downsampling has to be performed with more than 2 channel 192 kHz sources. As I mentioned before SSP800 confirms that the Pio downsamples the sampling frequency. However Alebonau's sony bdp-s5000es does bitstream 192 kHz. This condition is not mentioned in the White Paper.

Originally posted by Srrndhound

I was under the impression that the SSP-800 will always downsample 192 to 96 kHz, as that's the rate the DACs are clocked. Are they changing that with the new DSP?

The 6 channels 192 kHz LPCM and Dolby TrueHD audio tracks are not downsampled. The SSP800 reports 192 kHz.

Ab

**style** · 17 May 2009, 16:44 Sunday

Hi,

For a cd player (2 channel ) the 192kHz/24 is not a problem....with a movie -> multichannel (6 or more..) the classe and the bluray player go to the may at 96.

You have a movie with a 192kHz????

Stereo is one thing and the HT is anoter "planet.

Omar

**Srrndhound** · 17 May 2009, 19:52 Sunday

Originally posted by SwainDtV

In the White Paper is says:

DTS-HD Master Audio Features
• Up to 7.1 discrete channels with a sampling frequency of 96 kHz and 24 bits of signal resolution
• Up to 192 kHz sampling frequency and 24 bits of signal resolution for 2.0 channels

It's either 192 kHz with 2 channels or 96 kHz with up to 8 channels. To comply with DTS's own guidelines, downsampling has to be performed with more than 2 channel 192 kHz sources. As I mentioned before SSP800 confirms that the Pio downsamples the sampling frequency. However Alebonau's sony bdp-s5000es does bitstream 192 kHz. This condition is not mentioned in the White Paper.

Yes, I think the white paper is not 100% complete on such details. That's why I think that HDMA does support 5.1 192/24, as that's mentioned in their encoder doc.

The 6 channels 192 kHz LPCM and Dolby TrueHD audio tracks are not downsampled. The SSP800 reports 192 kHz.

I think the SSP-800 is accurately reporting the input signal parameters in both the HDMA (96 kHz) and TrueHD (192 kHz) cases. However, it is undoubtedly downsampling 192 to 96 kHz based on previous information in this forum. No?

**SwainDtV** · 20 May 2009, 07:32 Wednesday

Some last info.

Occasionally I receive information about new releases from 2L, the company that brought the aforementioned Blu-ray/SACD combo. I noticed that one of their new releases has 2 audio tracks. A 2 channel 192 kHz LPCM and a 5.1 channel 96 kHz DTS-HD MA track.

And from what I remember other recent releases were 96 kHz DTS-HD MA too.

Looks like the company has abandoned the multi-channel DTS-HD MA 192 kHz path.

Ab

**style** · 20 May 2009, 12:39 Wednesday

Hoi Ab,

always exepriment hee?! :W
like wrote the movie (5.1 or more) with 192kHz. in not a good way .. for the industry to much cost for make a movie in 192khz. and with the price at today from a bluray disc is a way to expensive.....

another thing...All this flow of sound must pass through the HDMI and the problems with copy-protected HDMI "built for difficult".....

----------------
is like the demo-disc that you see with the "new bluray on the full hd plasma":
everything is done to make people say wow that looks at the TV before you buy ... but when you place at home and do turn the DVD / BD discs "normal" ...is not all so wonderful ... all that glitters is not gold !

Omar

**RebelMan** · 20 May 2009, 21:08 Wednesday

Originally posted by Srrndhound

I think the SSP-800 is accurately reporting the input signal parameters in both the HDMA (96 kHz) and TrueHD (192 kHz) cases. However, it is undoubtedly downsampling 192 to 96 kHz based on previous information in this forum. No?

Correct. The SSP-800 will accept an 192KHz sample rate input but resamples the output at 96KHz. This is part of the reclocking that gives the SSP-800 its awesome jitter attenuation.

Problems with DTS-HD MA 5.1 surround 24 BIT / 192 kHz

Problems with DTS-HD MA 5.1 surround 24 BIT / 192 kHz

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment