A Q&A with Dave Nauber from Classe

[wettou]

I find it hard to believe that you have directly compared the two. here is a quote from Kal where it appears he prefers PCM.

Yes I have and I found DSD to be better maybe it had to do with the pre/pro I was using, Integra!

Actually, I drive a '92 Honda civic that has been paid off since '97.

Oh good for you you have gone up in my book. You are a wise man, I thought that you were more keeping up with the Jones, I stand corrected :W

yes, and I could care less about your questions. back off of personal attacks or I'll pull them.

Well lets both take a deep breath and make peace shall we I just think that Classé is not as customer driven as they should be for the price of their gear that's all.

[Srrndhound]

Can you help devise a question since I still don't necessarily get it? I've never been one to take 2 ch audio and care about it being played in surround sound.

thanks,

Maybe Jim (Oddiophile) will need to have the final input here as it was his question, but based on our discussions, I think he would like to ask:

>>Would Classe consider expanding the ability of their upmixers to process 3-ch L-C-R sources (i.e., RCA Living Stereo recordings)? This could be done either by means of new surround processors (Like DL7 or Trifield) or possibly by means of PLII/PLIIx which we understand from Dolby would be a relatively minor engineering task.<<

[Srrndhound]

Yes I have and I found DSD to be better maybe it had to do with the pre/pro I was using, Integra!

Not doubting your opinion, but I just find it strange that someone would buy a processor with Audyssey, bass management, speaker time aligmement, and a host of post-processing options, and disable all those for the sake of passing DSD to the DAC. Are you saying your speakers don't need bass management, time alignment, or room EQ?

[JuhaP]

Here are my few questiong regarding my SSP-800:

* Instead of configuring the processor via OSD are there any plans to provide possibility to do configuration on the pc with the client application. Also do versioning different configurations on the PC and load them into the processor after finished with the setup on the PC.

* Are there any plans to provide other controlling mechanism than Irda or RS-232 like controlling from PC client via USB or Canbus. If canbus, it's usage would require LAN TCP/IP connectivity.

* I would like to see more enhanced product documentation at this price range. Some of the discussion and debate could be avoided by extending the depth of documentation e.g. sound processing, etc. It would propably speed up people to get most out of their Classe components as well.

* What does the Test e-mail option at the Can bus menu mean?

[Kal Rubinson]

I find it hard to believe that you have directly compared the two. here is a quote from Kal where it appears he prefers PCM.

A brief statement without context. In this context, the DSD was converted to PCM in both alternatives and the only difference was whether that conversion was done in the player or the prepro. That is not the same thing as saying I preferred PCM to DSD.

Kal

[Nolan B]

Here are my few questiong regarding my SSP-800:

* Instead of configuring the processor via OSD are there any plans to provide possibility to do configuration on the pc with the client application. Also do versioning different configurations on the PC and load them into the processor after finished with the setup on the PC.

* Are there any plans to provide other controlling mechanism than Irda or RS-232 like controlling from PC client via USB or Canbus. If canbus, it's usage would require LAN TCP/IP connectivity.

* I would like to see more enhanced product documentation at this price range. Some of the discussion and debate could be avoided by extending the depth of documentation e.g. sound processing, etc. It would propably speed up people to get most out of their Classe components as well.

* What does the Test e-mail option at the Can bus menu mean?

I would really like to see this. I enjoy the ability to hook my kuro to my network and would really like to see a similar ability in my future SSP.

[sikoniko]

A brief statement without context. In this context, the DSD was converted to PCM in both alternatives and the only difference was whether that conversion was done in the player or the prepro. That is not the same thing as saying I preferred PCM to DSD.

Kal

so this comes back to the current argument with the DSP and the Hi-Res formats then right? Does it matter where the decoding is being done?

[Srrndhound]

so this comes back to the current argument with the DSP and the Hi-Res formats then right? Does it matter where the decoding is being done?

The problem is that regardless of where the DSD is converted to PCM, it is not the condition that Wettou prefers for DSD, which is never to be converted to PCM. His Integra supports that option.

[wettou]

Not doubting your opinion, but I just find it strange that someone would buy a processor with Audyssey, bass management, speaker time aligmement, and a host of post-processing options, and disable all those for the sake of passing DSD to the DAC. Are you saying your speakers don't need bass management, time alignment, or room EQ?

In life it is good to have options :B For SACDs DSD is best non processed and all

[AV-OCD]

Thanks for the clarification. Yes, the Living Stereo use L/C/R. DL7 (I think that's the name) is one of the solutions I mentioned earlier, I just didn't know the MC12 had it. I guess they did a software upgrade.

It's also possible to use PLII or PLIIx to process the L/R channels, if it is set for "phantom" mode, which creates no output for the C. In this mode, it also does essentially nothing to the L/R signals, so it mainly extracts the spatial cues for the 2 or 4 surrounds, as the case may be. Now I suspect this mode cannot be activated in current AVRs (or the SSP-800) as it is not described in the Dolby manual, but it is a trivial thing for the Classe engineers to do if they have a desire to make it happen. I'd be happy to help if they need it. :W

I believe that you can kill the center channel output in DPL2 in the SSP-800 by setting the center width to minimum, in effect giving you the phantom center mode.

[AV-OCD]

PLII was designed after extensive listening/living with L7, CS, Trifield and Music mode. PLII was designed to hit a different mix of strengths/weaknesses than the others. A good deal of effort went to signal purity and avoiding side-effects -- like tonal colorations, jittery-jumpy sounds or loudness modulations, things that can distract the listener -- and to provide a good effect with a wide range of programs. I feel it does many things better than any of these, but then again, I'm biased, having worked for Dolby and having a hand in PLII's evolution.

I admire the fact that you had a hand in the development of DPL2, but unfortunately I consistently get sounds placed in the rear channels that simply don't belong there. Cymbals and background vocalists come to mind. And something I've noticed in every processor I've owned with DPL2 is an increase in mid-bass that muddies up the sound. It's not just an increase in overall bass, which I would somewhat expect to happen, but a tonal shift in the mid-bass.

[Srrndhound]

I believe that you can kill the center channel output in DPL2 in the SSP-800 by setting the center width to minimum, in effect giving you the phantom center mode.

Yes, when the Center Width control is set to Max, then it is full phantom mode.

I admire the fact that you had a hand in the development of DPL2, but unfortunately I consistently get sounds placed in the rear channels that simply don't belong there. Cymbals and background vocalists come to mind.

I think you'll find that background vocals come from the surrounds with L7, Circle Surround, and Neo:6 as well. These sounds are different (uncorrelated) than the main vocals, which are highly correlated, so it comes out the front--and mainly the center (depending on C Width or the like the other decoders). Anything that is not correlated will come out the surrounds.

I'm not saying you have to like it, just explaining what's happnin'.

And something I've noticed in every processor I've owned with DPL2 is an increase in mid-bass that muddies up the sound. It's not just an increase in overall bass, which I would somewhat expect to happen, but a tonal shift in the mid-bass.

I am not doubting what you hear. I would only say that there are no filters in the signal path that can cause that, however. The circuit is pure wideband in Movie mode, and in Music mode it is also wideband everywhere when Panorama mode is turned on. When Panorama is off, a gentle shelf filter is applied to the surrounds above 5 kHz to take some of the edge off the HF. Kind of an early version of timber matching, if you will. Fosgate began using it in his 6-Axis processors way back when.

While you may not be interested in doing this, I'd be curious to see if we can pin down whether it's the surrounds, the center, or the timing of the center wrt L/R. Movie mode has no time offset, while Music mode adds 2ms to the C ch in products with PLIIx.

First, you might try comparing Movie and Music mode to see if the midbass issue is the same for both or not. In Music mode, if you gradually increase the Center Width, does it go away when you reach phantom C? If not, it would appear to be related to the surrounds.

[wettou]

S Can you please compile the list of questions ;x(

[AV-OCD]

I am not doubting what you hear. I would only say that there are no filters in the signal path that can cause that, however. The circuit is pure wideband in Movie mode, and in Music mode it is also wideband everywhere when Panorama mode is turned on. When Panorama is off, a gentle shelf filter is applied to the surrounds above 5 kHz to take some of the edge off the HF. Kind of an early version of timber matching, if you will. Fosgate began using it in his 6-Axis processors way back when.

While you may not be interested in doing this, I'd be curious to see if we can pin down whether it's the surrounds, the center, or the timing of the center wrt L/R. Movie mode has no time offset, while Music mode adds 2ms to the C ch in products with PLIIx.

First, you might try comparing Movie and Music mode to see if the midbass issue is the same for both or not. In Music mode, if you gradually increase the Center Width, does it go away when you reach phantom C? If not, it would appear to be related to the surrounds.

Thanks for the troubleshooting tips. I will do as you suggest and play with center width and also try movie mode. I might also try listening with all channels run full range w/o the sub.

FWIW - I don't hear the midbass issue with DTS Neo 6.

[Nolan B]

S Can you please compile the list of questions ;x(

Check the OP

[sikoniko]

OK, we are closing in on the day that I am going to send the questions to Dave. Is anything missing? Is everyone happy with what we have?

I'm very surprised at how well these questions developed. I think they are great questions!

[Nolan B]

ine more from me.

What would cause classe to do a whole re-design on the look of their product? Is it safe to say Classe wont change the look for some time?

[wettou]

ine more from me.

What would cause classe to do a whole re-design on the look of their product? Is it safe to say Classe wont change the look for some time?

I love the look too bad Oppo Digital can't use the look for their Blu Ray Player:B

[Nolan B]

I love the look too bad Oppo Digital can't use the look for their Blu Ray Player:B

I love the look too! I am not asking because I want them to change it...I am asking because I want a piece of mind they wont.

[Oddiophile]

Sikonko,

I think you have done a terrific job. Many kudos and many thanks.

The only thing I can think of is how to handle any follow-up questions that there might be (and there are bound to be some). Hopefully you can discuss this with Dave.

By the way, thanks in advance to Dave for taking the time to answer these questions and any others that might arise.

Again, well done!

Jim

[wettou]

So can you give us the complete list of what you will discuss with Dave? 8O

[sikoniko]

So can you give us the complete list of what you will discuss with Dave? 8O

Not sure what you mean? I've been updating the original post in this thread.

If I've missed anything, please let me know.

[1oldguy]

Well I know I will be holding off before I would purchase the 800 at this point.Even before I get the answers I know some of the questions here have zero'd in on some thing I know I would want.I am a patient man...No rash decisions when it comes to this kind of money.

[TommyV]

Are there any plans on implementing HDMI audio capability into the SSP-300 in the near future?

[Nolan B]

Are there any plans on implementing HDMI audio capability into the SSP-300 in the near future?

I would really like this too, but I fear the worst.

[sikoniko]

I sent Dave the questions as-is this morning. I know I said the 15th, but no reason to wait until wednesday. Now all we can do is wait for his response.

In response to the SSP-300/SSP-600 I believe they were discontinued last fall when the SSP-800 was released. I do know there are no plans to update them. At one time there was going to be an SSP-700 that was going to fit into the form-factor of the SSP-300, but it was cancelled. It was going to retail for $7000 when the SSP-800 was set to retail for $12,000.

I think we are better off with the current situation of one model (SSP-800) on the low side of between the two.

[wettou]

I sent Dave the questions as-is this morning. I know I said the 15th, but no reason to wait until wednesday. Now all we can do is wait for his response.

It will be interesting to read the answers! maybe Dave can post them here :T

[Blue-Eyes]

I sent Dave the questions as-is this morning. I know I said

In response to the SSP-300/SSP-600 I believe they were discontinued last fall when the SSP-800 was released.

In Europe the prices are very low these days (German shops only, Dutch shops do have the "normal" prices:

SSP300: 1500 euro new (regular price 5750 euro)
SSP600: 3000 euro new (normal price of 8750 euro)

Because the SSP800 and cleaning up old stuff in the stores.

[sikoniko]

Update:

Heard back from Dave last night and he is working on finalizing the questions. Hope to have them up by the end of the week!

We discussed follow-up questions and there will be an opportunity for one over-all follow-up. So after I post the questions, we can digest his answers and spend a week or so compiling any follow-up questions.

Once we have the final Q&A, I'll post it over at AVS for a wider array of people to see.

[TommyV]

I still hope they come out with a new one in the size of the SSP-300 that supports HDMI in the future.

[wettou]

Update: Heard back from Dave last night and he is working on finalizing the questions. Hope to have them up by the end of the week! We discussed follow-up questions and there will be an opportunity for one over-all follow-up. So after I post the questions, we can digest his answers and spend a week or so compiling any follow-up questions. Once we have the final Q&A, I'll post it over at AVS for a wider array of people to see.

Nice of you to be the "porte parole" :T

[sikoniko]

Nice of you to be the "porte parole" :T

I'm unclear if that is sarcasm or not.

I think it is nice of Dave to extend the offer to us.

[wettou]

I'm unclear if that is sarcasm or not.

Don't be so negative, it is a compliment :B

I think it is nice of Dave to extend the offer to us.

Yes, let's see the responses he comes back with 8O

[wettou]

I still hope they come out with a new one in the size of the SSP-300 that supports HDMI in the future.

1% probability, they are going to only have one processor so it's either all or nothing

[sikoniko]

can we get this made into a sticky for the time being?

[sikoniko]

OK, I am now done. If you were reading while I was posting, please make sure you didn't miss some sections, as I did some re-organizing while I was posting if it made sense.

[AV-OCD]

Just got done reading through all of the responses. First, I would like to thank Sikoniko for setting this up and managing the thread. And I have to say, I'm quite happy with Dave's responses. He gave me some new and helpful information about the workings of the SSP-800, and I appreciate his candor in addressing areas that they have no interest in or see no value in. The overriding message for me was that Classe and the SSP-800 specializes in sound quality, which is just the reason I bought it.

I'm especially happy to hear that the SSP-800 has been designed to optimize the handling of digital signals and that it does so much to clean up the incoming signal, that it essentially makes high end digital sources unnecessary. And this lines up with my experience. My Mac Mini "music server" sounds just as good as a high-end CD transport, and my cheapo BD player sounds amazing too. It's just nice to know that my ears aren't broken and that these modest source components sound as good as they do for a reason.

One thing, I thought there was a question in the original line-up about the sound quality of bitstream HD audio vs. decoded LPCM done by the player. Since we have to wait to experience this for ourselves, I'm just curious what Dave thinks based on their experience with the new DSP board. Should we expect to hear any difference?

Thanks again for making this happen sikoniko!

[Nolan B]

Great read, and very informative. Thank you Sikoniko an and Dave for your time an effort.

Dave, taking time to answer these questions further sets you apart from the competition and is service which is inline with the quality of your product.

Sikonoko...are you going to post these questions and answers on AVS?

[KahunaCanuck]

Awesome job Sikoniko & thank you Dave for taking the time, we appreciate it!

I actually just ordered my SSP 800 yesterday!
:T

[sikoniko]

thanks guys.

I'll post it to AVS when we get any follow-ups done. it doesn't make sense to post it over there now. I informed the "official" thread when this started, and I don't think anyone came over to participate.

I hope it stays civil both here and there. I think Classe's view on AutoEQ will be controversial over at AVS. Since Kal has taken to not participating in the questions, I'm curious to see if he'll rebutall now, since he is a big proponent of AutoEQ.

Overall, I'm glad Classe lifted the curtain and made some comments officially. Like it or hate it, it is what it is and ultimately one can choose to or not to purchase the products. The sad thing is that some people might miss out on even giving it a shot based on the current (IMO flawed) paradigm.

[beden1]

I think you did a terrific job with your project of producing answers to questions directly from the source. I also want to thank you and Dave for spending your time to bring this invaluable information and insights to all of us. I leaned quite a bit from this interaction.

I had commented on my impressions about the core capabilities of the SSP-800 on another site, where the SSP-800 thread was getting bogged down with some of the same minutia and diatribe that has permeated the discussions here as well. The bottom line for me, is that the SSP-800 sounds wonderful, and I am extremely happy with my purchase.

Let those who wish to chase rainbows seek their nirvana elsewhere.

[1oldguy]

Update:

Heard back from Dave last night and he is working on finalizing the questions. Hope to have them up by the end of the week!

We discussed follow-up questions and there will be an opportunity for one over-all follow-up. So after I post the questions, we can digest his answers and spend a week or so compiling any follow-up questions.

Once we have the final Q&A, I'll post it over at AVS for a wider array of people to see.

Do you have the link ?Thanks in advance

[sikoniko]

Do you have the link ?Thanks in advance

link to what?

[1oldguy]

A link to the Q&A for the 800.
Please forgive the noob in me.

[sikoniko]

A link to the Q&A for the 800.
Please forgive the noob in me.

It's the first post of this thread. no big deal. :T