SSP-800 and automated EQ: A Deal Breaker?

[alebonau]

~ if one can disabuse ones perceptions of old habits and expectations.

Kal

for many here a bigger problem than any I suspect :B

Only if the primary system (sans auto EQ engaged) sounds great to begin with!

a simple question have you ever done any comparisons with properly eq'd system with eq and sans eq. please if you can answer I would be keen to hear what your experience was

Since most of these discussions from others seem to reference the Denon AVP, have you done a review for this unit? The reason I'm asking, is that I have not read any professional reviews comparing the Denons of the world for example, to that of the traditional higher end Classe type products.

there certainly have been many professional reviews of the denon avp. gene sala's from audioholics for one. Gene is highly respected and this was his concluding statements :T

If you’re looking for the very best home theater separates solution, I highly recommend considering the Denon AVP-A1HDCI pre/pro and POA-A1HDCI ten channel power amp. While their model #’s aren’t impressive sounding, and the associated name doesn’t quite have the prestige of a Levinson or Krell, you can rest assured the Denon products have it where it counts in performance and features and are pound for pound a better value than virtually all of the super high end products on the market. From its Realta video processing engine, to its sophisticated Audyssey room correction, top notch construction and component usage, you’re getting Mercedes level performance and refinement at Acura prices. Your high end audio snob friends may snicker at this system, especially since they likely spent 2-3 times more for hollow boxes, but I suggest humbling yourself by saying nothing. You don’t want everyone driving the same car you’re driving, do you?

but come to think of it yes I have not seen one classe review. but is that the denons fault ? 8O

My personal sense (I did listen to both), is that their individual sounds are different, and consistent with how they compared over the years. The Classe sound (character) for me, is more refined and closer to my mind's vision of a real performance.

but as far as I remember the postings from people of impressions of the ssp-800's sound have said it isnt the typical classe sound. Its what my cousin says as well, feels its different to his ssp600. Maybe closer to your minds vission perhaps but think more a case of your classe preference than anything speaking here, and peoples perspective and perceptions will differ here I suspect

[alebonau]

No one is saying that a good system sound like garbage before EQ all we are saying is that it is nice to have Automated EQ to have the option and see if it make it sound better. I don't want to have to pay an acoustician every time I am changing furniture or curtains or gear for that matter..

~

exactly a point missed by some I think.

~

Why is it that there are so many musical style? Because we all like different things so it is the same in sound just give us the options and we will decide to use it or not.

that certainly is what this poll is indicating

~Just don't tell us "you can have all the colors you want as long as it's black? Henry Ford, just look where they are today :B

we all know what happens to companies who dont listen to what the consumers want

another form of sticking your head in the ground. and unfortunately all that happens is the world just passes you by...

[sikoniko]

Al,

we realize you are a fanboy of the Denon. The purpose of this thread is to poll people about the Classe and AutoEQ. Please refrain from your snide remarks about the Classe piece. This is a Classe area of the forum, and your bravado is not welcomed here. If you can participate on an unbiased level, then fine. But if you feel you have to rub your opinions in peoples face, then I will ask the mods to kindly escort you out.

We aren't going in Denon threads and posting our opinions of it, please respect us just the same. This thread is not intended to discuss Denon vs Classe. We know your opinion, and noone asked for it.

[alebonau]

Al,

we realize you are a fanboy of the Denon. The purpose of this thread is to poll people about the Classe and AutoEQ. Please refrain from your snide remarks about the Classe piece. This is a Classe area of the forum, and your bravado is not welcomed here. If you can participate on an unbiased level, then fine. But if you feel you have to rub your opinions in peoples face, then I will ask the mods to kindly escort you out.

We aren't going in Denon threads and posting our opinions of it, please respect us just the same. This thread is not intended to discuss Denon vs Classe. We know your opinion, and noone asked for it.

hehe denon fanboy ? I have said before Iam no brand slut, you dont find my equipment rack populated solely with one the brand and only speak of one brand as a few others around ! I dont buy a piece of equipment just becasue of the brand name on the box ! and as far as fanboy goes you probably need to take a hard look at yourself before starting with the name calling ! 8)

its interesting on the one hand you say you value the opinion of others in this thread. I have provided both mine and my cousins who is a current classe owner

~
I agree. I think some people are upset with Classe because they perceive that Classe has chosen for them, instead of letting them play with it and determine if it is right for them.

I'm appreciative of the participation, and only wish more people would join in. On the other hand, this isn't really useful information to Classe. The next question would need to be:

"Would you find yourself to be a customer of Classe?"

or some wording there-of. Just because someone participated, doesn't mean they have the budget or interest in a Classe product.

~

on the other hand it now seems you dont like that opinion :B

by all means report my post to the moderators, we have all seen how they have dealt with you before and I can see nothing wrong in what I have posted

and by the way In regards denon I'm merely responding to bedens question that he had not seen any reveiwer make comparison between the denon and other high end product. I gave him an example qouting a well respected reviewer doing just that, I cant do much if that is not to your liking h:

[beden1]

a simple question have you ever done any comparisons with properly eq'd system with eq and sans eq. please if you can answer I would be keen to hear what your experience was

My only experience so far with an auto EQ system was in using the MCACC system in my Pioneer Elite receiver.

I played with this quite a bit in two different systems, as I have two of these receivers.

I don't know how it compares to the others discussed, but, for my ears anyway, it seemed to take the life out of the music.

I also use Velodyne's system for my subs. It does a very good job of tightening up the bass, IMO.

there certainly have been many professional reviews of the denon avp. gene sala's from audioholics for one. Gene is highly respected and this was his concluding statements :T

I'm not familiar with this reviewer, so I'd have to say that it's his opinion like anyone elses, having nothing else to go on.

but come to think of it yes I have not seen one classe review. but is that the denons fault ? 8O

I think this is because the unit just came out this fall.

but as far as I remember the postings from people of impressions of the ssp-800's sound have said it isnt the typical classe sound. Its what my cousin says as well, feels its different to his ssp600. Maybe closer to your minds vission perhaps but think more a case of your classe preference than anything speaking here, and peoples perspective and perceptions will differ here I suspect

I agree with you about our Sony ES CD players. They sound great. But, I also seem to remember that you pretty much had Denon products/receivers for your previous systems. Maybe by comparing the new AVP with your other Denon receivers, it does sound very good to you. You are no doubt a fan of the Denon house sound.

[beden1]

Since most of these discussions from others seem to reference the Denon AVP, have you done a review for this unit? No. Not planned. Kal

Since there are so many threads discussing the Denon AVP in internet forums, I'm wondering why you wouldn't do a review? It would seem there would be a lot of interest among your current and potential new readers.

Better than many reviews I read about products/brands, that most of us have never heard of before...nor would spend north of $10,000+++.

[Gump]

...has anyone else in the classe set reported using an acoutician to setup PEQ on their ssp-800 for them ? not that I know off :W

That's probably because the darn thing sounds so good right out of the box that it's not really a pressing need... :T

I've owned both Denon and now Classe and although the Denon was an adequate performer in the HT realm I find the Classe to be superior sounding with movies in surround and the Denon not even close to the same league as far as the sound of music goes. (Hey, catchy name for a movie... )

I believe I would be quite happy with a non-equalized SSP-800 over an equalized Denon AVP any day of the week...no offense intended----just me earz' opinion .

[sikoniko]

hehe denon fanboy ? I have said before Iam no brand slut, you dont find my equipment rack populated solely with one the brand and only speak of one brand as a few others around ! I dont buy a piece of equipment just becasue of the brand name on the box ! and as far as fanboy goes you probably need to take a hard look at yourself before starting with the name calling ! 8)

its interesting on the one hand you say you value the opinion of others in this thread. I have provided both mine and my cousins who is a current classe owner



on the other hand it now seems you dont like that opinion :B

by all means report my post to the moderators, we have all seen how they have dealt with you before and I can see nothing wrong in what I have posted

and by the way In regards denon I'm merely responding to bedens question that he had not seen any reveiwer make comparison between the denon and other high end product. I gave him an example qouting a well respected reviewer doing just that, I cant do much if that is not to your liking h:

In case you didnt notice, this is a Club Classe. I don't care about Denon. Its my perogative. If I wanted to talk Denon, I would have gone to another thread. there are plenty of places for you to discuss Denon. go find one.

please respect our choice. If you have something productive to offer to the conversation, great! if all you have is more denon talk... please go where people share your opinion.

I don't care your reason for mentioning it... take it to a general thread and bash away all you want.

[beden1]

Al;

In just reading this review that you offered, it really does not say much beyond catch phrases and keep up with the Joneses BS. Some of these reviewers seem to be working as an extension of the company's own advertising department (like Denon in this case), as opposed to legitimate reviewers offering insightful information. The Classe SSP-800 is also about the same price as the Denon AVP.

He also said the AVP is great for an HT system, which I do agree with 100%. But, IMO that's where it ends. When I'm sitting down to enjoy listening to some music, I want to be there with my Classe processor and system.

Quote:
If you’re looking for the very best home theater separates solution, I highly recommend considering the Denon AVP-A1HDCI pre/pro and POA-A1HDCI ten channel power amp. While their model #’s aren’t impressive sounding, and the associated name doesn’t quite have the prestige of a Levinson or Krell, you can rest assured the Denon products have it where it counts in performance and features and are pound for pound a better value than virtually all of the super high end products on the market. From its Realta video processing engine, to its sophisticated Audyssey room correction, top notch construction and component usage, you’re getting Mercedes level performance and refinement at Acura prices. Your high end audio snob friends may snicker at this system, especially since they likely spent 2-3 times more for hollow boxes, but I suggest humbling yourself by saying nothing. You don’t want everyone driving the same car you’re driving, do you?

[Kal Rubinson]

Since there are so many threads discussing the Denon AVP in internet forums, I'm wondering why you wouldn't do a review? It would seem there would be a lot of interest among your current and potential new readers.

Perhaps but somehow I was not seduced by it and I prefer to review products that appeal to me personally. Why? Hard to say since it has all the features.

[Kal Rubinson]

That's probably because the darn thing sounds so good right out of the box that it's not really a pressing need... :T .

Since you added the smiley, I will refrain from bludgeoning you about the logical inconsistency in your response. :banghead:

Kal

[alebonau]

I agree with you about our Sony ES CD players. They sound great. But, I also seem to remember that you pretty much had Denon products/receivers for your previous systems. Maybe by comparing the new AVP with your other Denon receivers, it does sound very good to you. You are no doubt a fan of the Denon house sound.

hi beden, the sony 9000es is a beaut indeed but hey just because we share taste in a sacd player means we have to have the same preference in sound charecter.

I would never argue one persons preference for a certain house sound. that will be like two kids arguing about which colour is better red or blue.

as far as denon receivers, I have only owned one in the 23 plus years I've been involved in both hifi and av. In that time owned many brands of other equipment. What I own now is result of a lot of demoing and experience with a lot of other priduct and brands to settle on what offers me what I want and have a preference for and works well in my system. We are lucky here where we have a very strong forum community and a specialist dealer base happy to lend equipment for evaluation purposes giving the luxury of experiencing many different brands not only in my own setup but also others.

That's probably because the darn thing sounds so good right out of the box that it's not really a pressing need... :T

I've owned both Denon and now Classe and although the Denon was an adequate performer in the HT realm I find the Classe to be superior sounding with movies in surround and the Denon not even close to the same league as far as the sound of music goes. (Hey, catchy name for a movie... )

I believe I would be quite happy with a non-equalized SSP-800 over an equalized Denon AVP any day of the week...no offense intended----just me earz' opinion .

I dont ever remember you owning a denon avp let alone even posting your impressions of any demoing experience or comparisons with the classe ssp-800. My cousin would be most keen to read if you can post a link please

Al;

In just reading this review that you offered, it really does not say much beyond catch phrases and keep up with the Joneses BS. Some of these reviewers seem to be ♦, as opposed to legitimate reviewers offering insightful information. The Classe SSP-800 is also about the same price as the Denon AVP.

He also said the AVP is great for an HT system, which I do agree with 100%. But, IMO that's where it ends. When I'm sitting down to enjoy listening to some music, I want to be there with my Classe processor and system.

Quote:
If you’re looking for the very best home theater separates solution, I highly recommend considering the Denon AVP-A1HDCI pre/pro and POA-A1HDCI ten channel power amp. While their model #’s aren’t impressive sounding, and the associated name doesn’t quite have the prestige of a Levinson or Krell, you can rest assured the Denon products have it where it counts in performance and features and are pound for pound a better value than virtually all of the super high end products on the market. From its Realta video processing engine, to its sophisticated Audyssey room correction, top notch construction and component usage, you’re getting Mercedes level performance and refinement at Acura prices. Your high end audio snob friends may snicker at this system, especially since they likely spent 2-3 times more for hollow boxes, but I suggest humbling yourself by saying nothing. You don’t want everyone driving the same car you’re driving, do you?

I agree with his summation, and its probably a most comprehensive review and testing I've read of an av pre-pro that I can remember, but you are welcome to your opinion just as you say any reviewers are welcome to theirs

to say gene desala of audioholics is in your words "working as an extension of the company's own advertising department (like Denon in this case)" is bordering on libel and slander. Not really sure how you can make comment like that in any regard, you said earlier yourself you never heard of the man :W

as far as 2ch I have two friends using it quite sucessfully for 2ch and music needs. if you go to the denon avp owners thread you'll find plenty using it for both. In my opinion its one of the few av pre-pros out there which can do a great job on 2ch

in any regard I thought this discussion on autoeq. I have no understanding why you and a few others seem to have such an obsession to keep arguing about denon instead 8)

[beden1]

to say gene desala of audioholics is in your words "working as an extension of the company's own advertising department (like Denon in this case)" is bordering on libel and slander. Not really sure how you can make comment like that in any regard, you said earlier yourself you never heard of the man :W

as far as 2ch I have two friends using it quite sucessfully for 2ch and music needs. if you go to the denon avp owners thread you'll find plenty using it for both. In my opinion its one of the few av pre-pros out there which can do a great job on 2ch

in any regard I thought this discussion on autoeq. I have no understanding why you and a few others seem to have such an obsession to keep arguing about denon instead 8)

I was only commenting about what you presented as this reviewer's own words, and by his own words in this section of the review that you included, I'll stand on my impression. It reads like an advertisement.

I was not arguing about Denon...I think you originally brought the topic to the forefront. I had been trying to speak in generalities.

[Gump]

Since you added the smiley, I will refrain from bludgeoning you about the logical inconsistency in your response. :banghead:

Kal

Darn it! My New Year's resolution for 2009 was to be logically consistent and here I went and blew it already in the first week.....

Thanks, Kal for your restraint...I bruise easily.

[Gump]

I dont ever remember you owning a denon avp let alone even posting your impressions of any demoing experience or comparisons with the classe ssp-800. My cousin would be most keen to read if you can post a link please

Denon was actually the first brand of surround processor that I owned prior to me joining this forum. I eventually switched to Marantz because I felt it sounded more musical which was/is my primary passion (in this arena). I then moved to McIntosh and then Classe. I have demoed Denon more recently than when I first owned it and was mainly referring to their "house sound". I respect the brand but IMHO view them as more HT oriented than music. Once again, just my opinion. I have not done a head to head with Denon vs the SSP-800 and feel pretty comfortable that it's not really necessary.

At any rate I usually don't engage in these little "skirmishes" so suffice it to say that if I'm happy and your happy then we're all happy .

To get back to the EQ discussion, I have every intention of having the EQ tuned on the SSP-800 eventually, probably by a certified professional acoustician and mainly to satisfy my curiosity more than anything else. But, I'm not
in any particular hurry due to it sounding VERY good right now. And that is my opinion based on my comparison to the other electronics I've listened to and owned.

Neil

[Kal Rubinson]

Darn it! My New Year's resolution for 2009 was to be logically consistent and here I went and blew it already in the first week.....

Well, don't overdo it. You know what Emerson said about a "foolish consistency." :W

Kal

[Gump]

Well, don't overdo it. You know what Emerson said about a "foolish consistency." :W

Kal

Yes indeed, my attempts at consistency, however flawed, have perhaps resulted in the occasional hobgoblin visit,,, 8O . I always just blamed it on the alcohol .

Clever lad, young Ralph.

[wettou]

From its Realta video processing engine, to its sophisticated Audyssey room correction, top notch construction and component usage, you’re getting Mercedes level performance and refinement at Acura prices. Your high end audio snob friends may snicker at this system, especially since they likely spent 2-3 times more for hollow boxes, but I suggest humbling yourself by saying nothing. You don’t want everyone driving the same car you’re driving, do you?

Who cares I would rather take Acura or Lexus over Mercedes or BMW any day, but that is just me I never liked German cars unreliable and snobs..

Now in Audio it is a lot more subjective Japan has become masters of quality and innovation when it comes to electronics.. look at TVs any Us or Canadian brand left!! Also they are not afraid to take the best from the outside and improve on it I think that at this price range it is all a question of personal preference

Denon = Quality + Feature

Classé = Design + Engineering

Which you prefer become personal taste. I wish I could simplify and combine a bit of both

Classé SSP-800 all digital HDMi 1.3 or 2.o, no analogue needed like RCA, SVideo, Component, Composite, still balanced input for amplification + a few features from Denon, Realta XQV, Audyssey Pro, THX Ultra2 Plus

[planitismetal]

Can anyone say anything about stereo sound for these 2 pre/pro??
Or we only want surround sound??
Because I have heard Denon in stereo mode, and it was a medium value pre...
If we are talking only for 5.1, 7.1, 9.1, 8.2,
I don't care if I will spend 2-3 weeks to manual equalize my system...
I think this is the magic of Hi-End...
Searching, changing, making anything to find the perfect sound...
If everything was plug and play, we simply are loosing this thing called SOUND...
Like iPod or mp3...!!!!

[wettou]

Can anyone say anything about stereo sound for these 2 pre/pro?? Or we only want surround sound??

In two channel the Classé should win hands down, but for me multichannel SACD and movies and soon Blu Ray music in DTS Master Audio is 90% of my listening so I do care about outstanding multichannel 5.1 and 7.1..

Having said this I went to listen to the Classé SSP-800 for several hours on a couple of occasion and trully liked what I heard which is why I am still waiting for their relese because I probably end up buying it over the Denon.

Here is what I like about the Classé

- Very musical to my ears
- Cool looking outstanding design
- Preview Screen
- 10 channel Fully balanced
- Outstanding customer support
- Soon supporting all format

Here is what I wished it had as I said before
- SACD DSD support
- Automated EQ (Audyssey XT Multi EQ Pro, PARC, ARC, Trinov... which ever is best)
- THX Ultra2 Plus
- Headphone out with surround sound mode

[planitismetal]

- THX Ultra2 Plus

I think (I'm not sure) but my dealer has said to me that this will be a free upgrade when Classe find the best (I don't know the word :huh: ) circuity????? ops: ops: ops: ops:

[sikoniko]

I think (I'm not sure) but my dealer has said to me that this will be a free upgrade when Classe find the best (I don't know the word :huh: ) circuity????? ops: ops: ops: ops:

I wouldn't hold your breath on that one.

If they wanted to, it would be a matter of them adding the code, sending it off to THX and getting it certified and then paying a license fee. Do you want it enough that they pass that license fee down?

[sikoniko]

So yesterday I spent the afternoon in the Venetian towers. I saw and heard the likes of Boulder, Ayre, Thiel, Meridian, Bryston and a few others.

I asked them about RoomEQ and their opinion. One of them called it "Room Compression" and the others just sort of laughed and said no thanks. Of course some of these companies are 2 ch. only, but I think it says a lot about where "high end" is with RoomEQ - or more specifically auto-EQ. They find it laughable at best. Meridian even said they offer it, but they don't always recommend it.

I think, at this time, RoomEQ will be relegated to mass market products, with the exception of maybe SimAudio and I'll let you decide where you believe Anthem to be.

Remember, these are the guys that are saying, "I want to reproduce as close as possible what was heard on the sound board by the engineers doing the mix", not the magazine reviewers and not the marketing departments of companies.

So, all I have to say is, you decide which side of the fence you want to be on... but the high end pretty much thinks of it as something some companies are adding to sell you (the next big wiz-bang) - not something that necessarily makes things better.

have we all bought into the hype? is it real or placebo? Is flat really the ultimate desire? these "audiophiles" say no thank you - treat the room, do the best you can, and enjoy the imperfect room curves.

btw, the room compression comment made a lot of sense. He said by raising and lowering the levels on particular frequencies, you are basically compressing the sound... think of it like making your music sound like an mp3 instead of having a loss-less track.

[Srrndhound]

Well, yes, room correction usually means running sound thru a filter bank, as do lossy codecs like MP3, but the similarity ends there. There is no requantizing in each band, so the usual grunge that codecs can impart are nonexistent. Sounds a bit like a sour grapes comment, much the same as the audiophile community dispensed when surround was just starting out. But notice, with few exceptions, they eventually came around to supporting surround sound.

Can filterbanks hurt the sound? Absolutely. I tend to feel that the current crop of room EQ algorithms have more frequency resolution then they need above about 300 Hz (Schroeder frequency). Gentle , broad adjustments would help meld the speakers together tonally, with less potential for taking the life out of the sound. This is what I like about the SSP-800 EQ, although some shelving options would be nice, as would a lower Q range on the parametrics.

[style]

....I asked them about RoomEQ and their opinion. One of them called it "Room Compression" and the others just sort of laughed and said no thanks. Of course some of these companies are 2 ch. only, but I think it says a lot about where "high end" is with RoomEQ - or more specifically auto-EQ. They find it laughable at best. Meridian even said they offer it, but they don't always recommend it.
So, all I have to say is, you decide which side of the fence you want to be on... but the high end pretty much thinks of it as something some companies are adding to sell you (the next big wiz-bang) - not something that necessarily makes things better.
....have we all bought into the hype? is it real or placebo? Is flat really the ultimate desire? these "audiophiles" say no thank you....

:T
Well, that was we have at the first "reply write"...2 pages from this Forum for coming at the start point.

Mid-end and High-end
Style

[alebonau]

So yesterday I spent the afternoon in the Venetian towers. I saw and heard the likes of Boulder, Ayre, Thiel, Meridian, Bryston and a few others.

I asked them about RoomEQ and their opinion. One of them called it "Room Compression" and the others just sort of laughed and said no thanks. Of course some of these companies are 2 ch. only, but I think it says a lot about where "high end" is with RoomEQ - or more specifically auto-EQ. They find it laughable at best. Meridian even said they offer it, but they don't always recommend it.

I think, at this time, RoomEQ will be relegated to mass market products, with the exception of maybe SimAudio and I'll let you decide where you believe Anthem to be.

Remember, these are the guys that are saying, "I want to reproduce as close as possible what was heard on the sound board by the engineers doing the mix", not the magazine reviewers and not the marketing departments of companies.

So, all I have to say is, you decide which side of the fence you want to be on... but the high end pretty much thinks of it as something some companies are adding to sell you (the next big wiz-bang) - not something that necessarily makes things better.

have we all bought into the hype? is it real or placebo? Is flat really the ultimate desire? these "audiophiles" say no thank you - treat the room, do the best you can, and enjoy the imperfect room curves.

btw, the room compression comment made a lot of sense. He said by raising and lowering the levels on particular frequencies, you are basically compressing the sound... think of it like making your music sound like an mp3 instead of having a loss-less track.

yeah must be why simaudio moon put audyssey and autoeq under

Significant Design Features

"Auto Setup Calibration" (w/ microphone), Auto & Manual room calibration and "Audyssey Mult EQ XT"

for their new CP-8 Surround Preamplifier / Processor .

but no as you say RoomEQ is for "mass market products" :E

yep the denon avp-a1hd @ $7.5k USD and the Simaudio CP8 that is at $18k USD are jsut mass market pieces nothing else :roll: and yeah the anthem D2 at $8kUSD is questionable whether its mass market or not 8O

Must be why all these high end product makers including meridian give you the choice of EQ of one fashion or the other.

if you guys are just looking for self justification fair enough. but I think some actuall experience of the real world value of what these systems can bring might be of bit more relevance

[AV-OCD]

what you say inregards audyssey is not quite correct I believe. the sound character of my speakers havent changed as far as I can tell.

Al -

I was thinking about this comment of yours and it seems to me that if the sound character of your system "hasn't changed" with Audyssey engaged, that you didn't need EQ to begin with.

I can't say that I have ever specifically read a description from you as to what is so remarkable about the sound of your system with Audyssey.

Also just some food for thought, but several high-end manufacturers with equally great minds as those employed by Audyssey have said that EQ should be for the low frequencies only and that room treatment best for the mids on up. If I recall, your room is treated, at least partially. So if you noticed no change in the character of your speakers, it seems to me that Audyssey found little need to correct what it found. In the end, it is quite plausible that Audyssey is only correcting the bass in your system and you could have stuck with the Velodyne sub EQ and left the mid and highs alone.

[alebonau]

Al -

I was thinking about this comment of yours and it seems to me that if the sound character of your system "hasn't changed" with Audyssey engaged, that you didn't need EQ to begin with.

I can't say that I have ever specifically read a description from you as to what is so remarkable about the sound of your system with Audyssey.

Also just some food for thought, but several high-end manufacturers with equally great minds as those employed by Audyssey have said that EQ should be for the low frequencies only and that room treatment best for the mids on up. If I recall, your room is treated, at least partially. So if you noticed no change in the character of your speakers, it seems to me that Audyssey found little need to correct what it found. In the end, it is quite plausible that Audyssey is only correcting the bass in your system and you could have stuck with the Velodyne sub EQ and left the mid and highs alone.

hi Tim, my comment was in regards your comment of EQ changing the charecter of a speaker. My focals still have their sizzling top end lovely bass response and the warmth in the vocals I love much. none of that is changed.

Also I dont believe as you said it makes everything sound the same ie If I changed to a set of M&Ks in my room theyd sound the same as my focals. just doesnt work that way. As illustration, I recently upgraded my side surrounds from a 10 year old local design bi-poles to focal sr1000be. I ran audysey and they sound absolutely superb. watched "the strangers" and "the orphanage" and the decent and it really was mind blowing. frighteningly so infact in parts ! with special effects, ambience and sound steering etc. the best part was my focals blended in beautifully with the rest of my speakers vs my previous speaker that used to by comparison tick out as a sore thumb (and I say this retrospectively as was actualy pretty happy with the result).

As to what audyssey does in my room. To me running audyssey was a revelation making quite a significant difference to the sound. I'd actually say with and without audyssey is night and day. It took what was already what I thought an excellent sound to a whole another level (and I'm not talking sound charecter here). To describe it is pretty hard but think it actually makes the system gell ? adds realism impacting on effects, steering, sound stage, clarity coherence of vocals, details etc. To really descibe it I'd have to sit you in the room and turn audyssey on and off to describe and ps and I'm not even talking the effects of dynamic eq here which if listening to under reference levels makes an astounding amount of difference !

My room is not professionally treated. It is a a regular lounge room setup(check my lounge room link for details) as distinct to a dedicated room. I have done the best I can with room/seating layout, speaker positioning and furnishings (have followed focals recommendations in this regard), things like room being carpetted and surrounded by curtains, fabric couches, soft furnishings etc help. Its probably in rooms like mine where I think audyssey can provide quite a bit of benefit as distinct from the latitude you have with a dedicated room that you can heavily treat. But also do know professional installers in my country that will tell you with even a professionally treated and setup room eq(and theyre talking audyssey) will be the icing on the cake especially since room treatments can often be a blunt instrument with eq making up with fine adjustments.

I disagree on your points of EQ only being of benefit of LF. I think what audyssey is doing in my system is a lot more than for the LF but perhaps its something youd need to experience in my system to comment on.

Interesting that you mention that I would have been just as happy with the velo doing LF and leaving all the rest alone. well firstly the velo DD if you know me I have eq'd it to the last drop and I think it can be usefull for correcting for any major issues you might have in the room. But if you follow the advice of curtc of velodyne and chris from audyssey and run audyssey over the top of it, in reality what audyssey does for bass on top of that is really take to the next level. The kind of textured bass and with the smoothness and realism that I am now hearing I have never ever experienced with the velo DD and sms eq alone. the bass from the velo DD and just using the SMS room eq is almost one dimensional by comparison.

ps if anyone has an interest in reading more on room eq, and if they indeed feel it is equivalent to "room compression" I'd heartedly encourage you to read this white paper from meridian

they call it the "gentle art of room correction"

http://www.meridian-audio.com/w_paper/Room_Correction_scr.pdf

[Kal Rubinson]

btw, the room compression comment made a lot of sense. He said by raising and lowering the levels on particular frequencies, you are basically compressing the sound... think of it like making your music sound like an mp3 instead of having a loss-less track.

I have to call this nonsense. You are confusing frequency adjustments with dynamic adjustments. While EQ usually requires more gain/power, that should not be an issue for an adequate audio system.

Kal

[sikoniko]

I have a correction... I meant Theta digital, not Thiel.

yeah must be why simaudio moon put audyssey and autoeq under

Significant Design Features

"Auto Setup Calibration" (w/ microphone), Auto & Manual room calibration and "Audyssey Mult EQ XT"

for their new CP-8 Surround Preamplifier / Processor .

but no as you say RoomEQ is for "mass market products" :E

yep the denon avp-a1hd @ $7.5k USD and the Simaudio CP8 that is at $18k USD are jsut mass market pieces nothing else :roll: and yeah the anthem D2 at $8kUSD is questionable whether its mass market or not 8O

Must be why all these high end product makers including meridian give you the choice of EQ of one fashion or the other.

if you guys are just looking for self justification fair enough. but I think some actuall experience of the real world value of what these systems can bring might be of bit more relevance

I guess we have a blurring of the lines when it comes to defining "mass market". It may be the general perception that mass market defines sub $500 products, and perhaps even sub $1000. In this case, none of these products are mass-market.

However, when you take it from the perspective of making a product that targets a broader audience, the perception of mass market can be changed.

Remember, audio companies are trying to sell us something. They don't want us to be educated - and they openly admit it. They want our money. And sometimes, that means they include features that they don't necessarily practice as they preach if that means you will buy it.

I have no doubt that you (Al) perceive your room as better. It is quite plausible. That does not change the principle of what Audyssey does - and that does not mean everyone will agree with you that it is better either, though they may agree that it is different.

The question I ask you is: how do you know they are right? can you take your system to the engineers and verify? can you fly in skywalker sound and have them say "this is what it is meant to sound like?" No, you can not. You are trusting Audyssey. How do you know that when Trinnov comes out, or the next big named-brand isn't more correct? If your ears tell you something is not quite right, can you go in and manually over-ride what the system is doing?

How does Audyssey, or any EQ for that matter, correct the reflections in a room? How does it compensate for a window on the right wall, and a couch on the other wall? It can't. How does Audyssey change the frequency of a signal off-axis and not mess with it on-axis? it can't.

btw, the pdf you sited, I referenced it a few weeks ago. They don't agree with the principles of Audyssey either. I spoke to Meridian yesterday. They offer EQ, but they don't always recommend it. Its something that is available if/when it is needed, but not something that they push down their customers throats.

btw, I do like Anthems ARC. And I have heard Audyssey on multiple occasions... just not in my room. And as a consumer - I'm not interested in what it does.

I am all for auto-eq, but I'm not for abusing EQ. An artist does more with less.

I have some more reading material for anyone interested:

http://sound.westhost.com/articles/dsp.htm

[AV-OCD]

hi Tim, my comment was in regards your comment of EQ changing the charecter of a speaker. My focals still have their sizzling top end lovely bass response and the warmth in the vocals I love much. none of that is changed.

Also I dont believe as you said it makes everything sound the same ie If I changed to a set of M&Ks in my room theyd sound the same as my focals. just doesnt work that way. As illustration, I recently upgraded my side surrounds from a 10 year old local design bi-poles to focal sr1000be. I ran audysey and they sound absolutely superb. watched "the strangers" and "the orphanage" and the decent and it really was mind blowing. frighteningly so infact in parts ! with special effects, ambience and sound steering etc. the best part was my focals blended in beautifully with the rest of my speakers vs my previous speaker that used to by comparison tick out as a sore thumb (and I say this retrospectively as was actualy pretty happy with the result).

As to what audyssey does in my room. To me running audyssey was a revelation making quite a significant difference to the sound. I'd actually say with and without audyssey is night and day. It took what was already what I thought an excellent sound to a whole another level (and I'm not talking sound charecter here). To describe it is pretty hard but think it actually makes the system gell ? adds realism impacting on effects, steering, sound stage, clarity coherence of vocals, details etc. To really descibe it I'd have to sit you in the room and turn audyssey on and off to describe and ps and I'm not even talking the effects of dynamic eq here which if listening to under reference levels makes an astounding amount of difference !

My room is not professionally treated. It is a a regular lounge room setup(check my lounge room link for details) as distinct to a dedicated room. I have done the best I can with room/seating layout, speaker positioning and furnishings (have followed focals recommendations in this regard), things like room being carpetted and surrounded by curtains, fabric couches, soft furnishings etc help. Its probably in rooms like mine where I think audyssey can provide quite a bit of benefit as distinct from the latitude you have with a dedicated room that you can heavily treat. But also do know professional installers in my country that will tell you with even a professionally treated and setup room eq(and theyre talking audyssey) will be the icing on the cake especially since room treatments can often be a blunt instrument with eq making up with fine adjustments.

I disagree on your points of EQ only being of benefit of LF. I think what audyssey is doing in my system is a lot more than for the LF but perhaps its something youd need to experience in my system to comment on.

Interesting that you mention that I would have been just as happy with the velo doing LF and leaving all the rest alone. well firstly the velo DD if you know me I have eq'd it to the last drop and I think it can be usefull for correcting for any major issues you might have in the room. But if you follow the advice of curtc of velodyne and chris from audyssey and run audyssey over the top of it, in reality what audyssey does for bass on top of that is really take to the next level. The kind of textured bass and with the smoothness and realism that I am now hearing I have never ever experienced with the velo DD and sms eq alone. the bass from the velo DD and just using the SMS room eq is almost one dimensional by comparison.

ps if anyone has an interest in reading more on room eq, and if they indeed feel it is equivalent to "room compression" I'd heartedly encourage you to read this white paper from meridian

they call it the "gentle art of room correction"

http://www.meridian-audio.com/w_pape...ection_scr.pdf

I think you've been drinking the marketing kool-aid a bit :W in your attempt to describe what Audyssey has done for you, what it is capable of and what it is doing.

"A revelation", "a night and day difference", "takes it to another level", "mind blowing", etc, tell me nothing about what you actually heard to bring you to those conclusions. And you have included a speaker upgrade (new surrounds) in along with your description of the better sound you claim to hear because of Audyssey. The more I read, the more it seems like you have just bought into the idea that Audyssey is selling.

Lets get down to brass tacks here. Audyssey is an EQ that adjusts the frequency response (and only the frequency response) of your individual speakers towards a target. The 10 bands of PEQ in the velo are capable of doing essentially the same thing that Audyssey is (for the bass), the main difference is that one is manual and one is auto. Frankly, if the sound quality of your sub with Velo PEQ sounded flat in comparison to what Audyssey does, then you were doing something wrong when EQing the sub yourself.

There's no magic bullet here-- Audyssey is only altering the frequency response, just as can be done with PEQ. Two different means to the same end.

Audyssey does not lower distortion, improve transient response, alter the wave launch geometry, improve the dynamic capability or increase the resolution of your speakers. Nor does it improve the steering of your surround processor. So there is simply no reason Audyssey would in my opinion "blow away" PEQ, nor does it do half of what you are claiming it does.

For the record, I never said that Audyssey would make all speakers sound the same. I said that if you purchased speakers because you like their character without EQ, that there is good potential that Audyssey will change that when it adjusts the FR to meet the target.

Respectfully,

- Tim

[alebonau]

I have a correction... I meant Theta digital, not Thiel.



I guess we have a blurring of the lines when it comes to defining "mass market". It may be the general perception that mass market defines sub $500 products, and perhaps even sub $1000. In this case, none of these products are mass-market.

However, when you take it from the perspective of making a product that targets a broader audience, the perception of mass market can be changed.

Remember, audio companies are trying to sell us something. They don't want us to be educated - and they openly admit it. They want our money. And sometimes, that means they include features that they don't necessarily practice as they preach if that means you will buy it.

I have no doubt that you (Al) perceive your room as better. It is quite plausible. That does not change the principle of what Audyssey does - and that does not mean everyone will agree with you that it is better either, though they may agree that it is different.

The question I ask you is: how do you know they are right? can you take your system to the engineers and verify? can you fly in skywalker sound and have them say "this is what it is meant to sound like?" No, you can not. You are trusting Audyssey. How do you know that when Trinnov comes out, or the next big named-brand isn't more correct? If your ears tell you something is not quite right, can you go in and manually over-ride what the system is doing?

How does Audyssey, or any EQ for that matter, correct the reflections in a room? How does it compensate for a window on the right wall, and a couch on the other wall? It can't. How does Audyssey change the frequency of a signal off-axis and not mess with it on-axis? it can't.

btw, the pdf you sited, I referenced it a few weeks ago. They don't agree with the principles of Audyssey either. I spoke to Meridian yesterday. They offer EQ, but they don't always recommend it. Its something that is available if/when it is needed, but not something that they push down their customers throats.

btw, I do like Anthems ARC. And I have heard Audyssey on multiple occasions... just not in my room. And as a consumer - I'm not interested in what it does.

I am all for auto-eq, but I'm not for abusing EQ. An artist does more with less.

I have some more reading material for anyone interested:
http://sound.westhost.com/articles/dsp.htm

need to refer to my older post back here in regards the "mona lisa's smile"

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showpost.php4?p=435673&postcount=29

all systems like audyssey are trying to give you is as close a performance as the studio intended. If you dont like that thats your perogative. And I'm not really sure what will.

As far as the different systems performance, I have no experience of systems other than audyssey and velo sms PEQ to comment . Perhaps Kal can comment further as I dont know too many that have done proper comparisons between them or explored them all in any depth. Comparing them is not easy in any regard, forget about comparing inbuilt systems and hearing one in one system and one in another, way too many variables in all that to pass judgement on any. All youd be able to say is what you heard in one context and even then all you'll be able to do is do a comparison with and without eq on the same system in the hope it was setup correctly.

As far as manufacturers ramming something down your throat, only options you have there is live with the system you get with what ever you have or get add ons but in that case youd also have to live with the additional AD/DA plus the insertion losses and complexity of hookup those add in the equation.

In regards audyssey correcting for room anomalies. I think you'll find it does. Thats the whole purpose of it and other eq systems to remove the effects of the room.

[alebonau]

I think you've been drinking the marketing kool-aid a bit :W in your attempt to describe what Audyssey has done for you, what it is capable of and what it is doing.

"A revelation", "a night and day difference", "takes it to another level", "mind blowing", etc, tell me nothing about what you actually heard to bring you to those conclusions. And you have included a speaker upgrade (new surrounds) in along with your description of the better sound you claim to hear because of Audyssey. The more I read, the more it seems like you have just bought into the idea that Audyssey is selling.

~,

- Tim

Thats disappointing Tim, in response to your suggestion that audyssey is not doing anything in my system I try to give you a honest appraisal of the benefit and get told I've been sucking on the kool-aid ?

anyways with a modicum of respect I'll post an explanation, not that its needed if it was anyone else was suggesting that I'd tell em to F off !

Yes audyssey was a "revelation" for me, especially since as I explained I had no expectation or belief that it would be of benefit. It certainly showed me what was capable with audyssey and brought to my realisation that it had come a long way from how I remember previous incarnations of it.

And yes flicking between audyssey on and off is relatively easy, and yep it does make a "night and day difference" in my system a difference you dont have to be an audio connoisseur to appreciate.

Audyssey certainly does "takes it to another level", a whole another level infact and that for a system I think sounds pretty good even without it. And o the point as I've said before I'd never buy and avp without it !

and yep it is mind blowing. watch movies like the opening of "phonebooth" yep thats pretty mindblowing in the envelopement the bass the way it is layers and textured rather than fairly one dimensional with just the PEQ SMS of the velo DD.

In regards the new surrounds upgrade(thats actually quite recent about a month or so ago) and I'll give you the benefit of doubt that you read my post incorrectly, what I was saying and I'll rephrase perhaps it will help...that the older surrounds (a decade old set I had) even with audyssey although quite competent used to stick out like a sore thumb in comparison to when I got the new focal side surrounds that seem to blend in just beautifully and thats with audyssey as well. My point was although as per my previous post as well, I do not believe audyssey changes charecter of a speaker. Sure it might make up for some tonality differences due to non optimal setup etc but I do not believe it changes speaker charecter to meet some ideal. If it did it would make all speakers no matter the brand sound the same and it just doesnt do that

~

Lets get down to brass tacks here. Audyssey is an EQ that adjusts the frequency response (and only the frequency response) of your individual speakers towards a target. The 10 bands of PEQ in the velo are capable of doing essentially the same thing that Audyssey is (for the bass), the main difference is that one is manual and one is auto. Frankly, if the sound quality of your sub with Velo PEQ sounded flat in comparison to what Audyssey does, then you were doing something wrong when EQing the sub yourself.

There's no magic bullet here-- Audyssey is only altering the frequency response, just as can be done with PEQ. Two different means to the same end.

~
Respectfully,

- Tim

tim, if you ever speak to chris from audyssey and ask how it works he will explain as he has probably a 100's of times in the avs official audysseys thread just how complex audyssey is vs simple PEQ with jsut a few filters. and no audyssey is not just changing freq response. And if you somehow think all audyssey is, is an auto PEQ I think you are quite misplaced in yoru thinking.

And as I mentioned I eq'd every drop out the veloDD with its SMS EQ but what audyssey could do on top of that is mindblowing. Even the point of the bass being evened out over the listening area that audyssey does vs the single point only that the PEQ on the SMS does only at the main listening position but not 1ft away is pretty hard to get around !.

no ofcourse jsut eq will never be the silver bullet. but in my experience it has been a pretty usefull tool to get a lot out of my system than I was ever thought capable

~

~

Audyssey does not lower distortion, improve transient response, alter the wave launch geometry, improve the dynamic capability or increase the resolution of your speakers. Nor does it improve the steering of your surround processor. So there is simply no reason Audyssey would in my opinion "blow away" PEQ, nor does it do half of what you are claiming it does.

~

did I ever said it does all that ? it certainly does blow PEQ away and all I can do is tell you the benefit sonically brought to my system and I have done that honestly. All I can explain is that it is perhaps removing some of the effects of the room and setup and other inadequacies I am perhaps not aware and producing a better result for it. if you dont want to beleive that so be it. but I doubt I could ever do any otherwise apart from sitting you in my system with eq on and eq off. which your most welcome to do by the way if you ever visit my way

~


For the record, I never said that Audyssey would make all speakers sound the same. I said that if you purchased speakers because you like their character without EQ, that there is good potential that Audyssey will change that when it adjusts the FR to meet the target.

Respectfully,

- Tim

sorry as mentioned before a few times now that has not been my experience. all the lovely characters of my focals with the warmth in the vocals, the delicate yet scintillating top end and lovely bottom end is all still there.

[Orb]

Ok chaps I hope we can refrain from this thread turning into a typical AVSForum "All products sound the same" brawl

Kal, and anyone else; have you heard the Lyngdorf RoomPerfect?
I am curious as to how it compares to other solutions such as Audyssey.
Just asking as I had the fortune to listen to the TDAI 2200 Lyngdorf integrated amp and I must say I was quite surprised how good it was - I may be easily pleased though
I was auditioning speakers, so forgot to ask if the RoomPerfect was enabled or not, silly me but I must say even the integrated amp seems very good.

Tim I will send you a PM about the WB Discovery and Arcs later on, 1st comment ok yes those Discovery speakers are something special ;x(
Oh and the Chimeras up close look the dogs bollocks 8)
One of the nicest large speakers I have ever seen.

Hope everyone is having a good weekend so far.
Please note that Dogs Bollocks can be a beer over here in the UK and also a comment for "very good indeed!" :B

Orb

[wettou]

I think that we can debate this until the cows come home.
Is Automated EQ good? Does it improve the sound?... There are two camps one that says no and one that says yes! Just ike in politics or religion!!!

Nevertheless companies should give the customer and end user the option to choose whether or not he/she wants Automated EQ.

Classé made the decision for it' customers
- no Automated EQ,
- no THX Ultra 2 Plus,
- No DSD support,
- No new Codec supports (yes I know it is coming) unless the economy is so bad that no one can afford it any more
- No Video processing like Silicon Realta HQV

So it's up to the customers to vote with their wallet and make the choice and decide if they want to compromise! Yes I am repeating myself but I really get tired of the preachers just believe my son .....

PS: by the way Sim Audio is $18k may be the Audyssey feature is $10K ?? Probably not the Integra at $2000 has it, with Silcon Optix HQV, ISF calibration....

[AV-OCD]

Al -

I'm not trying to make this personal with my last post, but I am challenging your beliefs and knowledge of Audyssey and EQ in general. Rather than continue debating with you point for point, lets look "behind the curtain" to see what Audyssey is doing and what can be done with PEQ.

First, below are the before and after graphs of my old Focal speakers and Velodyne sub. These graphs are provided by the Audyssey Pro software that is used with the Pro model Audyssey EQ I used to own.



So you can see that the response of my left speaker and my sub are uneven, with various dips and peaks in the frequency response (FR from now on). What does Audyssey do with this? It tries to flatten the FR from 20Hz to 5KHz and then gently roll-off the treble above that point, as you can see in the "after" FR graph. Ignore the shallow dip at 2KHz in the "after" graph. That dip can be turned off, and is only option available with the pro version of Audyssey. The Audyssey version that you are using goes for flat response at 2KHz.

You can see in the subwoofer graph as well that Audyssey is flattening the response.

Audyssey "corrects" the uneven response by sampling the FR several hundred times. Because these samples are pictures in time of the FR, this is why Audyssey claims to "work in the time domain". Yes, it ""works" in the time domain, but it does NOT correct what we typically associate with time based problems, like excessive decay. As a side effect of correcting the frequency response, Audyssey can reduce excessive decay, but so can PEQ.

From Audyssey's website, here is a visual of what it is doing. The red dots are the samples it takes of the FR.


It then creates an almost exact inverse of the response to cancel out the dips and peaks (the yellow line).


The end result is, drumroll please . . . flat FR!


If Audyssey were doing something magical in the "time domain", don't you think that they would provide before and after graphs in the Audyssey Pro software, and on their website? They don't.


My first issue with Audyssey is that it is creating an exact inverse of the *average* FR. Why wouldn't you want an exact inverse of the FR? Isn't that more "accurate"? Because, it's an *exact* fix for a *gross* set of problems. It's overkill and if Audyssey applies an exact inverse of a dip that isn't there in the spot you are listening in, then it has altered the FR in a way that is not accurate to your current seat.

Here's what can be done with PEQ.

This is the averaged response of my current center speaker (Wilson Benesch).


Here's what I can do with just five filters in the SSP-800.


Here are the filters I set.


Are my results as ruler flat as Audyssey? No, but then Audyssey's aren't really either since the average they are EQing against doesn't accurately represent any one particular measurement point.

In the end, Audyssey and PEQ are simply two different means to the same end. Yes, Audyssey is technically more precise, but when that precision isn't needed (because you are correcting an average), it's more marketing hype and specsmanship than true value.

And all of this doesn't even cover the concepts of how humans perceive direct vs. reflected sound. Audyssey treats them as a whole. I'm fairly certain that in the mids and highs, my brain does not entirely. I view the reflected room sound to be like a shadow, separate from the source.

The principles behind Audyssey are only one perspective on what needs to be corrected and how it should be corrected. There are others. As Sikoniko said, which is right? You think that Audyssey is, but I think more work needs to be done since Audyssey did not always work for me. What happens if further studies are done and it is found that more weight should be given to the direct sound? Or what about Meridian's beliefs that you should target long decay and not FR?

I'm glad that Audyssey worked out for you, but you can't project your success onto all situations in which it will be used. It doesn't always apply.

And your Mona Lisa smile analogy only works if you have seen the actual painting. So unless you were in the studio during the recording sessions for everything you listen to on your home system, you will never know if your Mona Lisa matches the original.

[alebonau]

tim I think this is beyond the realms of this discussion, my understanding of audyssey is that it works on development of complex large number of FIR filters from algorithms and in both the time and freq domain. unlike peq which is purely in the time domain and in the case of the velos sms PEQ only for one listening position. Any further argument I think you need to have with Chris from audyssey himself if you do believe PEQ is exactly the same thing or can achieves the same result. I certainly do not agree neither in the theory or in the actual results gained in my system.

I would not argue the result you get and neither would I argue the result I get or others will as well. that woudl be absolutely silly ! there are no two rooms that are the same there are no two systems or setup that are the same. The result achieved and the benefit gained will most definitely be different from one context to the next. I can only speak for my self and for my context.

I never once said audyssey is the one right. I have no other experience of other systems but the audyssey and the velo DD15's sms PEQ to comment. I cant comment on the myriad of other eq systems out there to say they are any better of worse. I can only speak for the result audyssey acheives which I think is to very good benefit thats over and above achievable with just the velos SMS PEQ.

as far as the mona lisa's smile, no I have not seen it. but I do beleive it is what audyssey is doing its best to replicate, 'as the studio intended' and to remove the effects of the room in doing so. you might not like it, you might not agree - so be it. I doubt I will ever convince you otherwise and have no intention to do so in any regard

[alebonau]

Ok chaps I hope we can refrain from this thread turning into a typical AVSForum "All products sound the same" brawl

~

Orb

not something I've ever suggested ORB. Given my experience with velos sms PEQ there is no way I'd suggest both and audyssey acheive the same result. far be it. And I can certainly not talk about any other systems to say they are all the same thing as well !

my only suggestion would be to explore the various options for your self, be it pure manual or systems like the velos SMS PEQ with some automation if needed and reasonalby intuitive vs other more sophisticated systems like audyssey or any of the other systems mentioned. and decide for your self whcih is best for you and your needs preferences and context.

The limitation will be that some of these product are not availabe built in to your pre-pro. And if getting an add on component like the audyssey pro box there is the additional cost(not insignificant) plus there is the additional AD/DA you'll need to factor and the resulting insertion loss. also products like the audyssey pro require a pro installers whcih have implications of cost and convenience.

[AV-OCD]

tim I think this is beyond the realms of this discussion, my understanding of audyssey is that it works on development of complex large number of FIR filters from algorithms and in both the time and freq domain. unlike peq which is purely in the time domain and in the case of the velos sms PEQ only for one listening position. Any further argument I think you need to have with Chris from audyssey himself if you do believe PEQ is exactly the same thing or can achieves the same result. I certainly do not agree neither in the theory or in the actual results gained in my system.

.... I doubt I will ever convince you otherwise and have no intention to do so in any regard

I think we have both presented our views as thoroughly as we can, so I will leave this conversation alone , but I would just like to say that I have spoken extensively with Chris and I feel I have a solid grasp of what Audyssey is doing, as I attempted to explain in my previous post. I suggest you travel further down the rabbit hole to reach a deeper understanding yourself.

[alebonau]

I think that we can debate this until the cows come home.
Is Automated EQ good? Does it improve the sound?... There are two camps one that says no and one that says yes! Just ike in politics or religion!!!

~

I totally agree, arguing about that kind of thing is a completely waste of time and pretty boring really. pretty pointless in the end anyways since not like one side or the other likely change their mind !

~

Nevertheless companies should give the customer and end user the option to choose whether or not he/she wants Automated EQ.

Classé made the decision for it' customers
- no Automated EQ,
- no THX Ultra 2 Plus,
- No DSD support,
- No new Codec supports (yes I know it is coming) unless the economy is so bad that no one can afford it any more
- No Video processing like Silicon Realta HQV

So it's up to the customers to vote with their wallet and make the choice and decide if they want to compromise! Yes I am repeating myself but I really get tired of the preachers just believe my son .....

~.

couldnt agree more, I know things like automated eq a deal breaker for my cousin. thx ultra 2 support he is suprised isnt supported by the ssp800 since his ssp600 does. He is also suprised the ssp800 doesnt decode all current formats as the ssp600 did when he bought his couple of years or so ago.

he is voting with his wallet at the present by not buying anything :B but I think the economy got more to do with that. Hardly the time to be buying high end pieces especially if he is going to loose a massive amount in selling what he has.

hopefully the manufacturers arent silly enough to think we all just blindly believe what ever they trundle out !

~

PS: by the way Sim Audio is $18k may be the Audyssey feature is $10K ?? Probably not the Integra at $2000 has it, with Silcon Optix HQV, ISF calibration....

good question. I know with modern processors they have a ton of processing grunt on board so audyssey is actually not much more of an add on. Most actually have the built in capablity and just a matter of license costs. Its certainly not the cost of building in the add on box as that has superflous AD/DA and PC/control interfaces all that most AV pr-pros these days have built in anyways

same goes with scalers, on the avp thats jsut a separate board, none of hte cost of the additional box with its connectivity and interfacing/controls etc.

but yeah try going down the discrete box route. My cousin would be looking in aussie dollars at a $5k for vp50 scaler another $5k for the audyssey pro on top of the $15k for the ssp-800. Not that I think he'd be that interested in all those extra boxes or the additional cost and expertise needed to get the best out of them

but yeah why not specifically ask them wettou if the sim audio piece of particular interest to you

[style]

Hi,

n 2 words...

You can buy a DVDO Edge in place from the 50pro...and you save $$$,
than
If you dont can live without a EQ. in your HT system go with a NeptuneEQ.

you all and more (and the best) from the Anthem,Denon and pre-pro with inside i dont know what for a "gears".

Style

[sikoniko]

Hi,

n 2 words...

You can buy a DVDO Edge in place from the 50pro...and you save $$$,
than
If you dont can live without a EQ. in your HT system go with a NeptuneEQ.

you all and more (and the best) from the Anthem,Denon and pre-pro with inside i dont know what for a "gears".

Style

I wouldn't waiste your time... he won't listen. He has a decent scaler in his projector and doesn't need a second one in the processor. he just wants something to complain about.

[Kal Rubinson]

If you dont can live without a EQ. in your HT system go with a NeptuneEQ.
Style

Would you suggest this before an Audyssey Sound Equalizer?

Kal

[beden1]

Just took a pause to post of my total amazement I am experiencing while listening during a rainy day in Florida. I just finished my SSP-800 setups in between a busy schedule, the last of which was my multi-channel CD connection. I put on the Pink Floyd SACD multi-channel CD and I'm totally floored. It's F_ _ _' N outrageous.

[garak]

Just took a pause to post of my total amazement I am experiencing while listening during a rainy day in Florida. I just finished my SSP-800 setups in between a busy schedule, the last of which was my multi-channel CD connection. I put on the Pink Floyd SACD multi-channel CD and I'm totally floored. It's F_ _ _' N outrageous.

Glad to hear that you're enjoying the SSP-800. How many hours do you have on it? If you think it sounds great now, just wait until it's broken in.