Classe and subwoofer crossover

[Classe4me]

Hey fellow Classe owners, I am curious to know what kind of subwoofer and speakers you are running, what your personal preference is for your subwoofer crossover frequency, and whether or not you use the large or small setting for your front speakers?? I had somebody tell me NOT to use the THX setting a while back but I don't have a clue why. I suppose I am curious to hear what your opinions are for the best sound on your DVDs or Blu-ray discs?

If I am not mistaken the factory default is 80 and that is what I am using with a JL Audio F113 and Wilson Audio Sophia 2s with a Wilson WATCH 2 center channel.

If there is a better way to go I would be open to suggestions and opinions.

[wettou]

Hey fellow Classe owners, I am curious to know what kind of subwoofer and speakers you are running, what your personal preference is for your subwoofer crossover frequency, and whether or not you use the large or small setting for your front speakers?? I had somebody tell me NOT to use the THX setting a while back but I don't have a clue why. I suppose I am curious to hear what your opinions are for the best sound on your DVDs or Blu-ray discs?

If I am not mistaken the factory default is 80 and that is what I am using with a JL Audio F113 and Wilson Audio Sophia 2s with a Wilson WATCH 2 center channel. If there is a better way to go I would be open to suggestions and opinions.

Nice system any pictures?

I have set-up all my speaker as small with crossover at 80HZ and it works great. I have the JLAudio Fathom 113 sub as well and my speakers are three 802D front (R,C,L) and two 802N (SR, SL) and two Signature 7NT in ceiling. All are powered by Classé CA-5200 and CA-2100

[sikoniko]

The answer truely depends on the capability of your speakers. The THX standard of 80Hz works well for almost every type of speaker, from bookshelf to the biggest floor-stander's.

The question really comes from how much you want your speakers to do the heavy lifting of LFE and how much you want to let the sub handle it. Your speakers were most likely not designed to handle the lowest of lows and to push them to try might have compromises in other areas that should be what it was designed to do. The other arguement is that one might find that they need more power to drive a speaker to a lower frequency. (did he just say that after the big arguement before with brooks?) The reason is because Crossing over your speakers at a higher level allows your amp to focus on other areas of audio. not as much power is required. Why do you think there are 1000w amps in a sub? takes a lot of power to move a sub with a large throw (distance the speaker moves forwards and backwards).

So, you need to look at the specs of your speaker and see where it is capable to drive, do some testing and see what you like best and consider that the lower you drive a speaker, the more power you may need. especially when it comes to movies, because a movie has such dynamics that it can go from absolutely quiet to extreme loud in an instant. not as much for music where the sound is generally pretty consistent.

[SwainDtV]

Hey fellow Classe owners, I am curious to know what kind of subwoofer and speakers you are running, what your personal preference is for your subwoofer crossover frequency, and whether or not you use the large or small setting for your front speakers?? I had somebody tell me NOT to use the THX setting a while back but I don't have a clue why. I suppose I am curious to hear what your opinions are for the best sound on your DVDs or Blu-ray discs?

If I am not mistaken the factory default is 80 and that is what I am using with a JL Audio F113 and Wilson Audio Sophia 2s with a Wilson WATCH 2 center channel.

If there is a better way to go I would be open to suggestions and opinions.

I have been experimenting with crossover settings. I started with 80Hz on all speakers. This was the (THX) setting I used on my previous Arcam AV8 pre/pro. After setting up distance, levels and speakers with the same settings as my Arcam I immediately noticed the sound was different. So I decided to start from scratch.

First I configured all speakers to full range. That worked well for multi-channel discrete sources, but not for 2 channel sources. As expected in 2 channel with 'full range' speakers there was no bass coming from the subwoofer. What I didn’t anticipated was the drop in total bass energy coming from all main speakers in either Dolby PLII or DTS Neo mode. In plain stereo the bass energy is perfect.

After reading an article about “Setting the Subwoofer / LFE Crossover for Best Performance” I tried to setup the crossover according to the article’s guidelines.

- The purpose of a subwoofer is to reproduce very low frequencies that most loudspeakers cannot reproduce. It is meant to act like a subwoofer, not a woofer.

- When using an LFE/subwoofer cutoff (-3dB) at 80Hz / 24dB/octave slope, the low frequencies are high enough to still have directional perception, especially if the sub is located in close proximity to the listening position. This makes it easier to locate the sub in the listening room.

- On systems that offer a flexible bass management system, shoot for setting the crossover frequency for at least 10Hz above the lowest frequency your main speakers can reproduce cleanly.

With these guidelines I have a 40Hz crossover on the fronts, 50Hz on the center and 90Hz on the rears. The transition is very smooth and the low frequencies are not directional.

My setup: Mirage speakers OM-7 fronts, OM-C2 center and OM-R2 rears all powered by Arcam P7 and a Martin Logan Depth subwoofer.

[sikoniko]

good post. thanks for taking the time to do it.

[beden1]

I have my LFE set at 60Hz with my 803D fronts set to large, and the HTM2D and 703 surrounds set to small. At this setting, I feel my two subs are not directional and are providing their optimum sub woofer benefit. I would like to experiment with a LFE setting of 40Hz for the main speakers, but my receiver does not give me this option. I'm also not able to set the LFE differently between speakers with my current surround receiver, but this makes much sense to me as a benefit. I look forward to experimenting more in this area when I get the SSP-800.

During my travels the past several weeks to Classe/B&W dealers, one of the dealers suggested something that I never considered, and also don't know if I understand the ramifications. Since my listening room is large, he suggested setting my speakers to large, and not to set the LFE frequency for the sub woofers so that they are also full range. This would provide the benefit of more bass to fill the large volume of my room.

Has anyone tried this?

[beden1]

The other arguement is that one might find that they need more power to drive a speaker to a lower frequency. (did he just say that after the big arguement before with brooks?)

You may want to discuss this with one of your contacts at Classe . . . Why does Classe and many/most other audio manufacturers produce high powered amplifiers in the first place?

I would be very interested in learning from their response.

[merlinus]

During my travels the past several weeks to Classe/B&W dealers, one of the dealers suggested something that I never considered, and also don't know if I understand the ramifications. Since my listening room is large, he suggested setting my speakers to large, and not to set the LFE frequency for the sub woofers so that they are also full range. This would provide the benefit of more bass to fill the large volume of my room.

Has anyone tried this?

I have my speakers set to large, and at the moment crossed over at 60 Hz. My listening room is fairly large, basically open on two sides with a 12-foot ceiling.

With speakers set to large and crossover at 80 Hz the bass sounded muddy. I found setting speakers to small diminshed the sonics considerably, and also did not take advantage of their bass response.

[sikoniko]

You may want to discuss this with one of your contacts at Classe . . . Why does Classe and many/most other audio manufacturers produce high powered amplifiers in the first place?

I would be very interested in learning from their response.

Actually I did go round and round with Dave. He said its a marketing desicion. they sell more 200W amps than anything. He said he believes its the American mentality of bigger is better. he called me an anomoly. I returned to him that I think it is more his price points and that there isn't enough disparity between the two to make it worth it to buy the lower 100W amps.

[merlinus]

Actually I did go round and round with Dave. He said its a marketing desicion. they sell more 200W amps than anything. He said he believes its the American mentality of bigger is better. he called me an anomoly. I returned to him that I think it is more his price points and that there isn't enough disparity between the two to make it worth it to buy the lower 100W amps.

IIRC, there is $3500 difference between the CA-5100 and CA-5200, enough of a disparity for me. I spent the money saved to help pay for the SSP-800!

And I have yet to even reach "-4" volume for my speakers!!!

[beden1]

Actually I did go round and round with Dave. He said its a marketing desicion. they sell more 200W amps than anything. He said he believes its the American mentality of bigger is better. he called me an anomoly. I returned to him that I think it is more his price points and that there isn't enough disparity between the two to make it worth it to buy the lower 100W amps.

I'm sure there is more science behind their producing high powered dedicated amplifiers than purely marketing, but it's not worth pursuing the logic any longer in this venue.

[wettou]

After reading an article about “Setting the Subwoofer / LFE Crossover for Best Performance” I tried to setup the crossover according to the article’s guidelines.

- When using an LFE/subwoofer cutoff (-3dB) at 80Hz / 24dB/octave slope, the low frequencies are high enough to still have directional perception, especially if the sub is located in close proximity to the listening position. This makes it easier to locate the sub in the listening room.

- On systems that offer a flexible bass management system, shoot for setting the crossover frequency for at least 10Hz above the lowest frequency your main speakers can reproduce cleanly.

With these guidelines I have a 40Hz crossover on the fronts, 50Hz on the center and 90Hz on the rears. The transition is very smooth and the low frequencies are not directional.

Interesting? do you have the link for “Setting the Subwoofer / LFE Crossover for Best Performance”

JL Audio recommends that you set up all speakers to small, crossover at 80hz and let the sub do all the heavy lifting. I am wondering which is best maybe I will experiment and see what it does?

I am sure the 802D could be set to large the Frequency response for the 802D is 34Hz – 28kHz ±3dB on reference axis so I could put the crossover at 47Hz and see if I can hear the difference?:roll:

[sikoniko]

IIRC, there is $3500 difference between the CA-5100 and CA-5200, enough of a disparity for me. I spent the money saved to help pay for the SSP-800!

And I have yet to even reach "-4" volume for my speakers!!!

Yes, my statement is sort of out of context. I had asked them to consider making a 4channel amp for 7.1 systems. the cost of 2 CA-2100's is only $1000 less than the cost of a CA-5200. He simply said that they try and accomplish the most they can with as few models as possible.

[Gump]

I own a REL sub which has both LFE and High Level Inputs that hook up directly to the speaker wires going into the amp. The result is that the sub is more involved in the full range of bass output. This enhances the fullness of the sound (to me) and is why I prodigiously use my sub, even with 2-ch stereo.

As for my settings, I'll let you know after my SSP-800 arrives this Monday :T . I definitely plan on trying some various set-ups to experiment with the sound.

When I had my McIntosh pre/pro it was 80 and Large. When I set my 803D's to small I always get the feeling that I'm not letting them perform to their full capacity, like I'm cheating them or something. 8O

[style]

Sorry Gumb,

i see hier that the SSP800 in come very soon....
my ssp800 too:

give me your experience with the ssp800 and the 803D (same speakers)


At this moment I set my B&W750 sub is from 60-80hz....speakers set at large....I go see with the SSP800 waht will be the better solution....

Omar

[Classe4me]

Thanks to everybody who responded!

Wow, what a great bunch of replies! I am thrilled and flattered to have gotten such a wonderful and informative bunch of answers and opinions.

I realize I am a total "green horn" when it comes to this level of equipment and the hobby in general. I also realize that some of my questions come across as being pretty stupid but I was taught from as early as I can remember to ask questions when you don't know answers.

I have to admit that at times (a lot of them) I feel like a total moron when I read some of the posts and responses from all of you guys that are SOOOO knowledgeable about this subject matter. I am probably not quite as dumb as I sound but it is quite a handicap to be plagued with adult ADD and also being new to something that can be as complicated and technical as all of this information. I still struggle with trying to comprehend everything even though I can read it and try it.

If any of you great folks are anywhere near KY and want to stop by and visit, hang out, do some serious watching and listening, then I would also welcome your expertise and looking over my setup and making suggestions. I'll just give you the "keys" to the whole enchilada and let you have your way with it! I'll even pay for your accommodations if you are ever passing through. If any of you are Kentucky Derby fans then perhaps we can arrange a visit at that time. Any excuse to get some experts here to KY!

Unfortunately I don't have any dealers close by that can set my system up to perform to it's optimum level. My Wilson Audio sales counselor was about 3 hours away in TN and then left and moved even farther away. He was a brilliant guy and knew his stuff but he's no longer available. When I bought my speakers from him the dealer was not a Classe dealer but became one. He was a die-hard Krell man, but from our last conversation I think he was in the process of converting. I have tried to contact and text him a few times to no avail.

The bottom line is I am very, very happy with the sound and quality of my system as it stands but I know that with minor adjustments I can really optimize the performance and fine tune "the machine" and really take it off the charts. I know it's all the little things that add up to make the really BIG things!

Thanks again for a great response and also for making me feel good about not posting something insignificant.

[SwainDtV]

Interesting? do you have the link for “Setting the Subwoofer / LFE Crossover for Best Performance”

http://www.audioholics.com/tweaks/get-good-bass/setting-the-subwoofer-lfe-crossover-for-best-performance