SSP-800 Bypass vs. DSP

[merlinus]

I have questions about the two-channel bypass vs. digital processing.

Does DSP reduce SACD to the same as RBCD, which is 16-bit 44.1kHz? If so, then I am definitely not getting the full effects of SACDs!!!!

And if so, can I somehow use my subwoofer with the two fronts using the bypass feature?

My player is using balanced analog outputs into the 800. But AFAIK in order to use the sub I have to set up a configuration which includes speaker settings, and this would seem to involve analog-to-digital and then back again, with frequency loss.

Hopefully there is a better way!

[merlinus]

Since no one saw fit, or was able, to answer my question, I will post what I have learned from various sources plus my own experiments, in case anyone may be interested.

More than one conversion done in the SSP-800, whether D/A or A/D, will cause signal degradation. So unless the source output is digital, something will be lost. Therefore using the bypass mode with an analog source is the best way to go.

This, however, means no digital signal conversion, and therefore no processing nor configurations. So the usual method of setting up a subwoofer will not work.

One workaround is to use the AUX channels, which mirror the signals sent to Front L/R. These can be sent to a subwoofer, and if the fronts are set to bypass mode, the AUX channels will be as well.

The switches and setttings on the sub are then manually enabled to handle the crossover instead of using the SSP-800 for this.

I will be testing this on my system as soon as another 10-foot RCA cable arrives.

And hopefully there will be an easy way to also have surround HT.

[Kal Rubinson]

Since no one saw fit, or was able, to answer my question, I will post what I have learned from various sources plus my own experiments, in case anyone may be interested.

More than one conversion done in the SSP-800, whether D/A or A/D, will cause signal degradation. So unless the source output is digital, something will be lost. Therefore using the bypass mode with an analog source is the best way to go.

This, however, means no digital signal conversion, and therefore no processing nor configurations. So the usual method of setting up a subwoofer will not work.

True. However, the amount of degradation due to the additional A/D/A is not predictable and depends on the device, of course. I have had excellent experiences with my Meridian Ref 861 and the Anthem D2 where the advantages of the processor features clearly outweigh any small loss due to the extra conversions. That was not my experience with the Integra DTC-9.8.

I would expect that the SSP-800 converts at a much higher bitrate and resolution than 16/44.1 as the Meridian and Anthem do it at 24/96. So, rather than presume you need to use your alternate arrangement, you should try the Classe's conversion and compare it with bypass.

Kal

[sikoniko]

I would expect that the SSP-800 converts at a much higher bitrate and resolution than 16/44.1 as the Meridian and Anthem do it at 24/96. So, rather than presume you need to use your alternate arrangement, you should try the Classe's conversion and compare it with bypass.

Kal

This is taken from RMs "Official" thread:

All of the current sample rates including 7.1 channels at 192kHz/24-Bit are supported. However, the DAC systems perform best with the lowest THD+N when implemented as 96kHz input. Therefore, the SSP-800 will sample rate convert the signals to 96kHz before going to the DACs.

[Kal Rubinson]

Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson
I would expect that the SSP-800 converts at a much higher bitrate and resolution than 16/44.1 as the Meridian and Anthem do it at 24/96. So, rather than presume you need to use your alternate arrangement, you should try the Classe's conversion and compare it with bypass.

This is taken from RMs "Official" thread:

All of the current sample rates including 7.1 channels at 192kHz/24-Bit are supported. However, the DAC systems perform best with the lowest THD+N when implemented as 96kHz input. Therefore, the SSP-800 will sample rate convert the signals to 96kHz before going to the DACs.

Yes but I do note that it does not specifically state what the ADC parameters are. Upconverting after digital conversion is not the equivalent of doing the digital conversion at higher rates.

Kal

[sikoniko]

OK, so you're over my level of knowledge. Perhaps I know the answer, but don't know the terms of what you are referring to. can you elaborate?

[merlinus]

Thanks for the responses.

I did a test comparing DSP to bypass mode, both without using my subwoofer.

I clearly heard truncation at both the low and high ends of SACDs. Whilst it was not much, it definitely was audible.

This bears out what I was told by one of Classe's tech people -- more than one conversion in the SSP-800 will cause signal degradation.

The DACs in the 800 operate at 24/96, but from what I understand, Kal is correct in that after digitizing, the upconverting back to analog will cause signal loss.

My Marantz SA-7S1 only outputs analog with SACDs, so there would need to be two conversions for this signal within the SSP-800.

I can use a digital output (either coax or optical) for CDs, so that would not be a problem. But the slight truncation would probably be moot with this medium, as opposed to SACDs.

[sikoniko]

Thanks for the responses.

I did a test comparing DSP to bypass mode, both without using my subwoofer.

I clearly heard truncation at both the low and high ends of SACDs. Whilst it was not much, it definitely was audible.

This bears out what I was told by one of Classe's tech people -- more than one conversion in the SSP-800 will cause signal degradation.

The DACs in the 800 run at 24/96.

My Marantz SA-7S1 only outputs analog with SACDs, so there would need to be two conversions for this signal within the SSP-800.

I can use a digital output (either coax or optical) for CDs, so that would not be a problem. But the slight truncation would probably be moot with this medium, as opposed to SACDs.

Is this an issue that strictly applies to players that wouldn't be able to send SACD over HDMI?

If not, would you elaborate on what it means to hear "truncation"?

[merlinus]

By truncation I am referring to hearing less bass and treble response. In other words, the bass was not as low (I experienced this viscerally as well) and treble was not as high. I am not referring to volume of sound.

If your player can send SACD digitally to the SSP-800 then the issue is moot, as there would be only the one conversion.

[beden1]

By truncation I am referring to hearing less bass and treble response. In other words, the bass was not as low (I experienced this viscerally as well) and treble was not as high. I am not referring to volume of sound.

If your player can send SACD digitally to the SSP-800 then the issue is moot, as there would be only the one conversion.

My Sony SCD9000ES also only sends SACD via analog through its' internal DACs.

Would this "truncation" also hold true for using the multi-channel analog in-puts for multi-channel SACD's?

One of the primary things I wanted was to be able to use my subs in stereo mode. It's very disappointing if this is not the case

[merlinus]

I just spoke with Michael Sheehan of Classe tech support about this issue. He confirmed that more than one conversion in the SSP-800, whether A/D or D/A, results in signal degradation. He also stated that this would be true for any processor, not only the 800.

So if you are inputting analog and wanting processing of any sort from the 800, then there would be two conversions -- analog to digital for processing, and back to analog for speaker output.

OTOH, you may not notice the signal loss....

[beden1]

I just spoke with Michael Sheehan of Classe tech support about this issue. He confirmed that more than one conversion in the SP-800, whether A/D or D/A, results in signal degradation. He also stated that this would be true for any processor, not only the 800.

So if you are inputting analog and wanting processing of any sort from the 800, then there would be two conversions -- analog to digital for processing, and back to analog for speaker output.

OTOH, you may not notice the signal loss....

Does the A/D/A signal processing in the processor then make the quality of the CD player moot?

[merlinus]

Garbage in, garbage out, no? So I do not think the quality of the CD/SACD player is moot.

I would assume that any processing by the SSP-800 is affected by the quality of the incoming signal.

[garak]

Garbage in, garbage out, no? So I do not think the quality of the CD/SACD player is moot.

I would assume that any processing by the SSP-800 is affected by the quality of the incoming signal.

Another option would be to get an SACD player that can convert DSD to PCM and output it via HDMI, such as the Oppo DVD players. That way all of the processing would be done in the SSP-800, and the SACD player would just be a transport.

That's what I'm going to do. I was going to get the Oppo DV-983H for that very purpose, until I heard that Oppo has a Blu-ray player in the works and should be out within 2-5 months. Now I'm waiting for their Blu-ray player, which should also be able to send SACD as PCM over HDMI.

[sikoniko]

Another option would be to get an SACD player that can convert DSD to PCM and output it via HDMI, such as the Oppo DVD players. That way all of the processing would be done in the SSP-800, and the SACD player would just be a transport.

That's what I'm going to do. I was going to get the Oppo DV-983H for that very purpose, until I heard that Oppo has a Blu-ray player in the works and should be out within 2-5 months. Now I'm waiting for their Blu-ray player, which should also be able to send SACD as PCM over HDMI.

Is it confirmed whether the Oppo player will be "universal" in that it plays SACD's and DVD-A's along with Blu-Ray?

[sikoniko]

nevermind.. found it.

The BDP-83 will be a Profile 2.0 that features the ABT 2010 de-interlacing and scaling solution for both DVD and Blu-Ray media. The product as currently implemented supports SACD. We are investigating the possibility of DVD-Audio support.

http://gizmodo.com/5046217/oppo-bdp+s83-blu+ray-player-may-be-first-almost-universal-disc-reader

[Kal Rubinson]

I clearly heard truncation at both the low and high ends of SACDs. Whilst it was not much, it definitely was audible.

How do you hear truncation? Do you mean roll-off?

The DACs in the 800 operate at 24/96, but from what I understand, Kal is correct in that after digitizing, the upconverting back to analog will cause signal loss.

If it is converted to 24/96, there is no need for upconverting prior to D/A. OTOH, there are, as we know, still two conversions.

Kal

[Kal Rubinson]

OK, so you're over my level of knowledge. Perhaps I know the answer, but don't know the terms of what you are referring to. can you elaborate?

An ADC (or, for that matter, a DAC) works at a particular bitrate and sampling frequency, say 16/44.1 or 24/96. If the former, it can be upsampled to 24/96. However, there might be some smoothing but the inherent information would be still limited by the original conversion at 16/44.1.

Kal

[Kal Rubinson]

Does the A/D/A signal processing in the processor then make the quality of the CD player moot?

No. It might only be moot if the player output digital because then the only conversions would be in the processor. With analog output from the player, ALL the conversions have an impact, including the one in the player.

Kal

[Kal Rubinson]

Another option would be to get an SACD player that can convert DSD to PCM and output it via HDMI, such as the Oppo DVD players. That way all of the processing would be done in the SSP-800, and the SACD player would just be a transport.

Of course. The Oppo is also cheap enough to get now since the arrival of their BR player is not certain.

[merlinus]

If by roll-off you mean less bass and treble frequency response, definitely yes. I also can feel the loss of bass in my body, as less vibration.

Although relatively small, it is obvious to me.

The signal degradation due to more than one conversion was confirmed by two of Classe's top tech people.

[garak]

Does the A/D/A signal processing in the processor then make the quality of the CD player moot?

No. It might only be moot if the player output digital because then the only conversions would be in the processor. With analog output from the player, ALL the conversions have an impact, including the one in the player.

Kal

Ok, however if all of the D/A conversion is done in the processor, does that make the CD player (or any source for that matter) moot?

My question is are all transports equal?

[sikoniko]

Ok, however if all of the D/A conversion is done in the processor, does that make the CD player (or any source for that matter) moot?

My question is are all transports equal?

I believe the answer is probably no; however, they should be from my understanding.

There is an interesting review from a notable critic (John Atkinson) comparing a couple different Transports. I'm not able to copy the section into the article, unfortunately.

I have a large number of 24-bit AIF and WAV files on my Mac mini; while I could browse these files with the Controller, attempting to play them either gave a "Corrupt File" error message, or the file immediately switched to Pause. But then used to feed 16-bit/ 44.1Hz digital data to my high-end Mark Levinson No.30.6 DAC, the ZP80 [Sonos] performed flawlessly. I was hard-pressed to hear much of a difference between the Levinson driven by the ZP80 receiving the Apple Lossless Compressed or AIF file, and the original CDs from which I had ripped the tracks, as played back by the Classe or Ayre players feeding the DAC the same data via AES/EBU links.

The full review is here: http://www.sonos.com/uploadedFiles/A...reophile06.pdf

I think this is the direction I am going, but I am being taunted by the Slim Duet, as it is cheaper.

[Kal Rubinson]

Ok, however if all of the D/A conversion is done in the processor, does that make the CD player (or any source for that matter) moot?

My question is are all transports equal?

Nearly.

[Kal Rubinson]

If by roll-off you mean less bass and treble frequency response, definitely yes. I also can feel the loss of bass in my body, as less vibration.

Although relatively small, it is obvious to me.

The signal degradation due to more than one conversion was confirmed by two of Classe's top tech people.

I am skeptical about this. Almost all my experience of signal degradation by serial conversions has been of increased noise and smearing of the details (loss of resolution) but never a loss of the frequency extremes. Of course, an increase in HF noise would result in the masking of HF details and might sound like a treble rolloff. If there really was a loss of the frequency extremes, it suggests really mediocre processing and I would not suspect that of the equipment you are using.

Kal

[beden1]

No. It might only be moot if the player output digital because then the only conversions would be in the processor. With analog output from the player, ALL the conversions have an impact, including the one in the player.

Kal

Thanks for the clarification.

[beden1]

I am skeptical about this. Almost all my experience of signal degradation by serial conversions has been of increased noise and smearing of the details (loss of resolution) but never a loss of the frequency extremes. Of course, an increase in HF noise would result in the masking of HF details and might sound like a treble rolloff. If there really was a loss of the frequency extremes, it suggests really mediocre processing and I would not suspect that of the equipment you are using.

Kal

Sounds like something you may want to explore when you are able to review an SSP-800 for yourself.

[merlinus]

I am skeptical about this. Almost all my experience of signal degradation by serial conversions has been of increased noise and smearing of the details (loss of resolution) but never a loss of the frequency extremes. Of course, an increase in HF noise would result in the masking of HF details and might sound like a treble rolloff. If there really was a loss of the frequency extremes, it suggests really mediocre processing and I would not suspect that of the equipment you are using.

I only wish that this was so! It would make things lots easier.

But I wonder why I am perceiving less bass frequency response with processing by the SSP-800 vs. the analog bypass mode?

I do agree that my gear is not mediocre, in quality or price!!! (grin)

When I get the bypass set up properly I will do some more comparative listening and report back.

[Kal Rubinson]

Sounds like something you may want to explore when you are able to review an SSP-800 for yourself.

I may, given the opportunity. :W

Kal

[Kal Rubinson]

I only wish that this was so! It would make things lots easier.

But I wonder why I am perceiving less bass frequency response with processing by the SSP-800 vs. the analog bypass mode?

I do agree that my gear is not mediocre, in quality or price!!! (grin)

When I get the bypass set up properly I will do some more comparative listening and report back.

I wonder, too. Let us know what your continuing listening shows.

Kal

[merlinus]

Reality Check

After listening to the SACD of "Caravanserai" and CD of "Wish You Were Here," it is difficult to imagine my system sounding any better in bypass mode!

[beden1]

After listening to the SACD of "Caravanserai" and CD of "Wish You Were Here," it is difficult to imagine my system sounding any better in bypass mode!

Are you saying that you no longer hear the "truncation" that you heard earlier?

[sikoniko]

After listening to the SACD of "Caravanserai" and CD of "Wish You Were Here," it is difficult to imagine my system sounding any better in bypass mode!

is that the santana album? did you order the import? is it worth the high cost? I love abraxas but can't bring myself to importing it at the high cost.

[merlinus]

Are you saying that you no longer hear the "truncation" that you heard earlier?

To be perfectly honest, I do not know. I certainly heard some of it when listening to the SACD of DCD's "WTROADS" mid-afternoon. But it clearly is not as well-recorded as the two others.

The cable I need in order to set up the bypass will probably arrive today, and I can spend the weekend doing some comparative listening.

Perhaps, in the end, it is mostly subjective anyway, especially with small differences in sonics.

[merlinus]

is that the santana album? did you order the import? is it worth the high cost? I love abraxas but can't bring myself to importing it at the high cost.

Yes, and it blows the CD version of "Caravanserai" completely out of the water. Pricey, but since it is one of my favorites, I bought it anyway.

The SACD of "Abraxas" was shipped yesterday. It will be interesting to compare it with the MoFi UltraDisc Gold version.

[sikoniko]

Yes, and it blows the CD version of "Caravanserai" completely out of the water. Pricey, but since it is one of my favorites, I bought it anyway.

The SACD of "Abraxas" was shipped yesterday. It will be interesting to compare it with the MoFi UltraDisc Gold version.

I have not heard Caravanserai but Abraxas is a reference disk for me. I love to listen to Gypsy Queen. It is hard to tell based on the reviews on Amazon whether the cost is worth it.

[merlinus]

I got both of the Santana SACDs directly from Japan. The company even gave me a 1000 yen discount on my next order.

When it arrives, I will post my response to the "Abraxas" SACD compared with the MoFi UltraDisk Gold version. Should be a closer match than the "Caravanserai" CD.

Added note: I just finished listening to the MoFi Abraxas. Whilst it is indeed wonderful for a CD, it is definitely not an SACD in terms of depth and breadth of sound and frequency response.

Since getting the new system, I have been absolutely spoiled by the sonics of well-recorded SACDs. So unless I am wanting a particular performance of a classical music work, I always purchase SACD versions of albums, if available.

On another note, the RCA cable I needed in order to set up the SSP-800 bypass mode just arrived. Another adventure in the works!

[sikoniko]

I got both of the Santana SACDs directly from Japan. The company even gave me a 1000 yen discount on my next order.

can you pm me a link to their site?

Since getting the new system, I have been absolutely spoiled by the sonics of well-recorded SACDs. So unless I am wanting a particular performance of a classical music work, I always purchase SACD versions of albums, if available.

My SACD collection has grown substantially since getting the SSP-800. Its a shame is mostly dead. I hope Blu-Ray audio takes off!

[garak]

Since getting the new system, I have been absolutely spoiled by the sonics of well-recorded SACDs. So unless I am wanting a particular performance of a classical music work, I always purchase SACD versions of albums, if available.

I completely agree. If you like Bach, check out this SACD of Violin Concertos with Hillary Hahn as the soloist. Her performance is flawless, and the recording is top notch.

http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Violin-Concertos-Hybrid-SACD/dp/B0000ADYCN/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1223677389&sr=1-1

[wettou]

My SACD collection has grown substantially since getting the SSP-800. Its a shame is mostly dead.

Not dead if you are listening to classical check out sa-cd.net

[sikoniko]

Not dead if you are listening to classical check out sa-cd.net

I love the symphony and I love Fantasia... but classical music puts me to sleep.

I already shop there. I'm running out of SACDs that I want. I did see Black Sabbath's Paranoid will supposedly be released next week. that would be worth it. I just hate these insane prices!

[wettou]

I love the symphony and I love Fantasia... but classical music puts me to sleep. I already shop there. I'm running out of SACDs that I want. I did see Black Sabbath's Paranoid will supposedly be released next week. that would be worth it. I just hate these insane prices!

I agree prices are too high for SACD?

By the way try to go to sleep listening to this:

Berlioz: Symphonie fantastique etc. - Cincinnati SO/Järvi

http://sa-cd.net/showtitle/198

Mahler: Symphony No. 1 - San Francisco/Michael Tilson Thomas

http://sa-cd.net/showtitle/61

Orff: Carmina Burana - Atlanta SO/Runnicles

http://sa-cd.net/showtitle/197

and Finally

Dvorak: Symphony Nos. 8, 9 - Budapest Festival Orchestra/Fischer

http://sa-cd.net/showtitle/10