Classé sound compared to McIntosh sound

[zele]

Can anyone describe the difference between how the two brands "sound"? I'm hesitating between McIntosh and Classé but don't have any dealers near where I live dealing with both brands. One thing is sure, the speaker will be B&W 800 series (still haven't made up my mind which one within the range).

[gmartan]

Depends on the speakers. I have ML Summits and the McIntosh amps sound very dull, lacking top end and transparency. They have great bass and a full, warm midrange though. I just traded the MC402 for the Classe 2200 power amp, keeping the McIntosh C2300 pre-amp and SACD player. Sounds fantasic but looks odd together. I listened to the Classe 500 pre-amp but found it pretty grainy. I did not get to listen to the more expensive 700. If your speakers have a pretty stable impedence curve you should be fine with the McIntosh. Then again you may prefer the detail of a direct coupled amp such as the Classe. Very different animals.

[Glen B]

I listened to the Classe 500 pre-amp but found it pretty grainy.

Pretty grainy in what context ? In your system described above ? In a store setup and if so, with what associated equipment ? Classé preamps have been called many things but I don't recall any ever being described as "pretty grainy."

[beden1]

Pretty grainy in what context ? In your system described above ? In a store setup and if so, with what associated equipment ? Classé preamps have been called many things but I don't recall any ever being described as "pretty grainy."

Being an owner of a CP-500, I was also wondering how it sounded "grainy"? I've always found it to have a very smooth, articulate and pleasant sound, particularly with female vocalists.

[wettou]

I listened to the Classe 500 pre-amp but found it pretty grainy

What does that mean?

[gmartan]

Grainy

All listenig was in my house on my system. By grainy I mean that slightly harsh transistor sound. It's clear as day on my Martin Logan Summits but you likely wouldn't notice it on most dynamic speakers. Both the 500 and 700 sounded fine at the store with B&W speakers. I couldn't get the dealer to bring out the 700 so I can't comment on how it compares in my system.

[beden1]

All listenig was in my house on my system. By grainy I mean that slightly harsh transistor sound. It's clear as day on my Martin Logan Summits but you likely wouldn't notice it on most dynamic speakers. Both the 500 and 700 sounded fine at the store with B&W speakers. I couldn't get the dealer to bring out the 700 so I can't comment on how it compares in my system.

My first thought is that something was wrong in your system for you to have heard a "slightly harsh transistor sound" from the CP-500.

[gmartan]

It's all in the synergy and in the taste

Electrostatic speakers are more revealing of the source than most but I am not willing to give them up. I tried and lost $5K in the attempt so I guess I'm hooked. The different sound of every pre-amp and power amp is readily apparent. What works for me is a tube front end and Mosfets driving the speakers.

[beden1]

Electrostatic speakers are more revealing of the source than most but I am not willing to give them up. I tried and lost $5K in the attempt so I guess I'm hooked. The different sound of every pre-amp and power amp is readily apparent. What works for me is a tube front end and Mosfets driving the speakers.

Be that as it may, you were not the one to be in the position of speaking about the Classe sound, when your experience was limited to listening to the CP-500 through a speaker system that has a flawed design.

[alebonau]

Be that as it may, you were not the one to be in the position of speaking about the Classe sound, when your experience was limited to listening to the CP-500 through a speaker system that has a flawed design.

sorry beden what is flawed about the martin logans demoed with ?

I'm actually very familiar with the martin logan - classe sound and grain to be honest is not something that comes to mind.

infact there is more a smoothness and rolled off topend to the sound if thats what your looking for. With B&W speakers with their more exhuberant topend that would be less an issue.

Grain can usually be attributed to either the source, which could be at fault here. or perhaps the power amp used which if inadequate in drive for the speakers in question or perhaps not the best match can result in a grain to the sound.

as far as classe or mcintosh, one would really want to listen for them selves to decide I would think rather than ask complete strangers to make suggestions ?. especially given the cost of the speakers in question or the amps to drive them, I would think a trip to a dealer who stocks the equipment in question to find out for yourself would be a very small price to pay in the overall scheme of things.

either way even with mcintosh theres valve or solid state to choose from, and amp choice would very much depend on the particular speakers in mind which seem as yet undecided on

[sikoniko]

sorry beden what is flawed about the martin logans demoed with ?

I'm actually very familiar with the martin logan - classe sound and grain to be honest is not something that comes to mind.

infact there is more a smoothness and rolled off topend to the sound if thats what your looking for. With B&W speakers with their more exhuberant topend that would be less an issue.

Grain can usually be attributed to either the source, which could be at fault here. or perhaps the power amp used which if inadequate in drive for the speakers in question or perhaps not the best match can result in a grain to the sound.

as far as classe or mcintosh, one would really want to listen for them selves to decide I would think rather than ask complete strangers to make suggestions ?. especially given the cost of the speakers in question or the amps to drive them, I would think a trip to a dealer who stocks the equipment in question to find out for yourself would be a very small price to pay in the overall scheme of things.

either way even with mcintosh theres valve or solid state to choose from, and amp choice would very much depend on the particular speakers in mind which seem as yet undecided on

Al, I have to say that is one of the best posts *I* have seen you make. :T

[beden1]

sorry beden what is flawed about the martin logans demoed with ?

I'm actually very familiar with the martin logan - classe sound and grain to be honest is not something that comes to mind.

infact there is more a smoothness and rolled off topend to the sound if thats what your looking for. With B&W speakers with their more exhuberant topend that would be less an issue.

Grain can usually be attributed to either the source, which could be at fault here. or perhaps the power amp used which if inadequate in drive for the speakers in question or perhaps not the best match can result in a grain to the sound.

as far as classe or mcintosh, one would really want to listen for them selves to decide I would think rather than ask complete strangers to make suggestions ?. especially given the cost of the speakers in question or the amps to drive them, I would think a trip to a dealer who stocks the equipment in question to find out for yourself would be a very small price to pay in the overall scheme of things.

either way even with mcintosh theres valve or solid state to choose from, and amp choice would very much depend on the particular speakers in mind which seem as yet undecided on

I have not listened to the Martin Logans extensively, except I think I heard them once at Best Buy or Tweeter and they did not offer the type of sound reproduction I was looking for. The OP said "Electrostatic speakers are more revealing of the source than most but I am not willing to give them up." This means to me that he spent a lot of money on speakers that he finds difficult to match with other system equipment.

My primary point is that, while the CP-500 did not work with his speakers and system, his limited home audition experience did not qualify him to make a blanket statement like it was "grainy". That impresssion would have been the other end of the spectrum from what I have experienced in listening to it for a year and a half, and with two different B&W speakers . . . the 703 and the 803D. Additionally, I have never read any reviews that would leave any impression whatsoever, that the CP-500 is "grainy".

[beden1]

I also remember when the original electrostatic speakers hit the marketplace in and around the early-mid 1970's. I forget who designed them, but they created a lot of interest when they were first introduced. They looked kind of like a room divider section in the original design.

I spent considerable time listening to and researching these speakers at the time, as my listening impressions were initially very positive. If my memory also serves me correctly, they were relatively inefficient and needed a lot of power, and the major drawback and issue in the science/design, was that they were noticeably affected by changes in room temperature and humidity in particular. They needed to be in a controlled climate in order to operate properly as they were designed.

As I was in Florida at the time, and air conditioning was still not mainstream, these speakers turned out to not be an option.

If electrostatic speakers still have these issues, perhaps his Martin Logans were having a bad hair day during his auditions.

[gmartan]

Whatever floats your boat...or mine

Be that as it may, you were not the one to be in the position of speaking about the Classe sound, when your experience was limited to listening to the CP-500 through a speaker system that has a flawed design.

That's rather judgmental. Few would consider the ability of a speaker to reveal the attributes of source components a flaw. Between my ML Aerius and my ML Summits I had big Focal JM Lab speakers with their Beryllium tweeter in the house for eight months and found them insufficiently involving driven by my MF Tri-Vista player and amp. Poor synergy. Both of those pieces died so a search for new components ensued. I spent hours at my dealers listening to Classe gear but also McIntosh and Naim through B&W and Sonus Faber speakers. I am aware that Classe is voiced with B&W and the sound was great. I bought the McIntosh tube gear since my dealer said it would be closest to the sound I liked but the more I listened at home over time the less I liked it. Changing to a solid state Mac amp helped only slightly. Electrostatics are a difficult load at high frequencies and these transformer equipped amps seem to lose the high frequency extension and air that gives music it's transparency and emotional content. That prompted me to trade the McIntosh gear in for Classe. I also tried a highly regarded Naim amp but found it too electronic sounding. All auditions were now in my house. I really didn't want both Classe and McIntosh brands in my room (one retro, one ultramodern in design) but on a whim we tried the McIntosh C2300 tube pre-amp with the Classe amplifier. For me, with my speakers, it has that extension without a hint of harshness that I crave and so it floats my boat.

[gmartan]

There have been some improvements in 30+ years.

I also remember when the original electrostatic speakers hit the marketplace in and around the early-mid 1970's. I forget who designed them, but they created a lot of interest when they were first introduced. They looked kind of like a room divider section in the original design.

I spent considerable time listening to and researching these speakers at the time, as my listening impressions were initially very positive. If my memory also serves me correctly, they were relatively inefficient and needed a lot of power, and the major drawback and issue in the science/design, was that they were noticeably affected by changes in room temperature and humidity in particular. They needed to be in a controlled climate in order to operate properly as they were designed.

As I was in Florida at the time, and air conditioning was still not mainstream, these speakers turned out to not be an option.

If electrostatic speakers still have these issues, perhaps his Martin Logans were having a bad hair day during his auditions.

Sounds like we started this hobby about the same time. My first was an Avery Fisher amp with Electrovoice horns and woofers. You may be thinking of Quads from England which are still the only speaker for some people. ML had their problems too but survived and prospered.

http://www.us.martinlogan.com/reviews/summit_hifi_news.html

If you listen to acoustic music you will be hooked. These rock pretty well too but I wouldn't particularly recommend them for rap or electronic music. They do need a lot of power even though their efficiency rating is relatively high and though they have internal amplifiers driving each of the two twelve inch woofers per cabinet. I may add a second CA-2200 and bi-amp them.

[beden1]

Sounds like we started this hobby about the same time. My first was an Avery Fisher amp with Electrovoice horns and woofers. You may be thinking of Quads from England which are still the only speaker for some people. ML had their problems too but survived and prospered.

http://www.us.martinlogan.com/reviews/summit_hifi_news.html

If you listen to acoustic music you will be hooked. These rock pretty well too but I wouldn't particularly recommend them for rap or electronic music. They do need a lot of power even though their efficiency rating is relatively high and though they have internal amplifiers driving each of the two twelve inch woofers per cabinet. I may add a second CA-2200 and bi-amp them.

Those Fisher components were really great back in the day. I don't remember the Electrovoice, but were the Klipschorns out about this same time period? I really liked them too, but they were out of my price range.

My music tastes have primarily remained with a variety of Rock N' Roll genres.

The first system that I bought for myself in 1972 were separates from Dynaco along with their bookshelf speakers. I really enjoyed this sytem in my college dorm room. Unfortunately, it was stolen while I was on spring vacation, along with my large record collection. The only positive was that I was then able to afford from insurance money to move up to Luxman components and JBL speakers. These unfortunately got stolen too while living in my first apartment after I graduated.

Those original electrostatics were really excellent. I listened to yours (I think) a few years ago, but I think it was in Best Buy or Tweeter. I only remember that the room was less than ideal, and they were running them through a mid level receiver. They certainly were not given their best audition, judging from the review you provided.

Time flies when you're having fun!

[RebelMan]

The only positive was that I was then able to afford from insurance money to move up to Luxman components and JBL speakers.
Time flies when you're having fun!

Ahh... Luxman and JBL. They made up part of my first home theater back in day before HT became a popular catch phrase. :P

[alebonau]

Sounds like we started this hobby about the same time. My first was an Avery Fisher amp with Electrovoice horns and woofers. You may be thinking of Quads from England which are still the only speaker for some people. ML had their problems too but survived and prospered.

http://www.us.martinlogan.com/reviews/summit_hifi_news.html

If you listen to acoustic music you will be hooked. These rock pretty well too but I wouldn't particularly recommend them for rap or electronic music. They do need a lot of power even though their efficiency rating is relatively high and though they have internal amplifiers driving each of the two twelve inch woofers per cabinet. I may add a second CA-2200 and bi-amp them.

I've heard a few different martin logans and in a completely different systems, couple of them with a tube front end, a superb locally made elektra tube pre, and most recently just the other day an audio research pre driven off some massive audio research mono blocs beautiful result

I think where they are very hard to beat is in their transperency, their holographic like imaging, particualrly good I find wiht vocals, their delicacy and detail is quite something and the voice can jsut hang there in mid space between them, apart from my most recent listen of them where have found them difficult is in their integration with their built in bass unit. perhaps the marraige of completely differnt driver designs or just the usual issue of people grappling wiht proper integration of sub/bass in their systems

very revealing speakers though

not my choice of speaker still, for the broad range of music I listen to, love my utopias for that

Those Fisher components were really great back in the day. I don't remember the Electrovoice, but were the Klipschorns out about this same time period? I really liked them too, but they were out of my price range.

My music tastes have primarily remained with a variety of Rock N' Roll genres.

The first system that I bought for myself in 1972 were separates from Dynaco along with their bookshelf speakers. I really enjoyed this sytem in my college dorm room. Unfortunately, it was stolen while I was on spring vacation, along with my large record collection. The only positive was that I was then able to afford from insurance money to move up to Luxman components and JBL speakers. These unfortunately got stolen too while living in my first apartment after I graduated.

Those original electrostatics were really excellent. I listened to yours (I think) a few years ago, but I think it was in Best Buy or Tweeter. I only remember that the room was less than ideal, and they were running them through a mid level receiver. They certainly were not given their best audition, judging from the review you provided.

Time flies when you're having fun!

hehe yes they have perhaps come a long way. the old original quad esl's for instance are lovely speakers still, an all time classic but completely fall down in trying ot reproduce dynamics of any kind. for pure detail and vocals and delicacy they still up hteir though. defintely not your rock speaker though more for small group instrumentals classical choral music etc

the newer MLs have the hybrid design to have a bass unit to cover off on the freq spectrum the panels struggle to reproduce.

the likes of EVs klipsch horns and JBLs quite something else really, theyre really about dynamics and scale, rather than detail and delicacy which are the forte of the MLs

a speaker the caliber of the martin logans the likes of best buy or tweeter runoff a mid level receiver is really not going to do justice, theyre very particular to setup need a lot of room to breath given their di-pole panel design and really need the finest of components feeding them to bring out their best.

give em a shot one day if come across them properly setup at a dealer on some different style of music, even if not your first choice but just to add to your perspective

[beden1]

Ahh... Luxman and JBL. They made up part of my first home theater back in day before HT became a popular catch phrase. :P

I loved my Luxman gear. It had such a smooth and refined sound for that period of time. Very good quality build as well.

Great minds! :T

[gmartan]

[QUOTE=alebonau]
a speaker the caliber of the martin logans the likes of best buy or tweeter runoff a mid level receiver is really not going to do justice, theyre very particular to setup need a lot of room to breath given their di-pole panel design and really need the finest of components feeding them to bring out their best.

QUOTE]
I tried a Pioneer Elite receiver myself with the Aerius at one point and had to stop listening until I bought the MF Tri-Vista gear. The Pioneer sounded fine with most speakers but electrostatics do need good electronics. No one listening to ML at Tweeter or Best Buy via a receiver would purchase them if they had good ears. The inferior sound of the op amps used would be apparent.