Stereophile Article About McIntosh, et al

[beden1]

April 21, 2008 — D&M Holdings, Inc., the Japanese consortium that owns Denon, Snell, Boston Acoustics, McIntosh, Escient, and Marantz, is apparently on the marketing block. Rumors to that effect have been circulating since mid-March, although the company's website, in a press release dated 04/15/08, coyly says only: "D&M Holdings, Inc. notes that recent press reports concerning the potential sale of D&M shares is not based on any information provided by the company."

http://www.stereophile.com/news/042108dm/

It's a shame to see what's continuing to happen to what were great family businesses like McIntosh. Let's hope that Classe and B&W can maintain their independent status and keep producing top quality products without having to keep cutting corners to appease the stock holders every quarter.

Just say no to Chinese products of any kind!

[toddm]

oh come on. Its silly making purchase decisions based on the presumed nationality of a brand. We live in an increasingly integrated world where we ought to judge products based on the merits, ie quality, price, etc...

[RebelMan]

we ought to judge products based on the merits, ie quality, price, etc...

I suspect beden1 came to his conclusions based on these criteria and to which I can concur given my own experiences. For example, a Motorola Razr V3 manufactured in China was purchased to replace an identical one made elsewhere. The quality of the replacement was piss poor as the anodized aluminum scratched with incredible ease. The original one was built like a tank, and it never scratched through to the bare metal like the replacement did. A company builds its reputation on the quality of their products and the place of origin should be held accountable to the same standards.

[beden1]

I suspect beden1 came to his conclusions based on these criteria and to which I can concur given my own experiences. For example, a Motorola Razr V3 manufactured in China was purchased to replace an identical one made elsewhere. The quality of the replacement was piss poor as the anodized aluminum scratched with incredible ease. The original one was built like a tank, and it never scratched through to the bare metal like the replacement did. A company builds its reputation on the quality of their products and the place of origin should be held accountable to the same standards.

Thanks Rebelman;

I knew I liked you from early on, as we seem to share many of the same ideals.

There are a myriad of examples of poor and dishonest Chinese manufacturing standards that include inexpensive copies and dangerous products. For example, recently our 14 month old Shiba Inu (dog) had a seizure, and blood tests also revealed potential kidney damage. The source of her ailments led directly to Chinese manufactured chicken treats that have been linked to numerous illnesses and deaths in dogs over the past 6 months (dangerous chemicals and substances). Fortunately, we have an excellent vet, and he was able to link and correct the situation before it became terminal. And, along with lead in childrens toys, poison chemicals in pet food that killed many dogs and cats a couple of years ago, etc., etc., the Chinese largely just manufacture inferior junk. The only standards they have are no standards at all, except for how inexpensive they can make it while still appearing to be good.

Additionally, the cheaper Chinese products have enabled retailers like Walmart (and manufacturers) to dupe shoppers into buying their discounted inferior products in place of quality made in America and European made goods. This has forced thousands of companies to lower their standards, and to produce their own cheaper products in China in order to keep competitive and survive. Millions of jobs have been lost, as many/most companies have been forced to close or merge as the playing field became unrealistic.

It's affecting most/all products including electronics, that were already made competitive for years by the Japanese. At least the Japanese were honorable in their quest however, and produced products that created value, as well as an honest niche among the masses while not pretending to be top of the line goods.

[Lex]

just say no to chinese products of any kind is not realistic, and further, it probably would not be good business at this point. I won't deny that Americans are paying a price at the pumps right now due to Chinese industrialization, and largely, we likely did put them on the map. However, that said, they do owe it to the world to make "good products".

That said, please don't let this turn into anything political or racist. We don't have a place for that here.

As far as audio or electronics, I like Japanese quality overall, would honestly tend to shy away from other countries other than USA, Europe. In a perfect world, I'd like to buy USA. But we've damaged ourselves so much, we don't even have manufacturing capacity now for much except toilet paper and coffee filters. Good grief.

But again, this is off topic. I would like to see USA a success at making products again, re-industrialize USA. But that does not affect what I wish for China or other countries because we are all tied in the world economy, but each nation should be more autonomous.

[RebelMan]

Many many years ago it was laughable to own a hand held transistor radio made in Japan. Now days hand held electronics made in Japan are often sought after for their higher quality standards. It's possible given enough time China's quality will improve and history will repeat itself. Until then I find it good practice to avoid "Made in China" whenever possible. It's nothing personal, just business.

[beden1]

That said, please don't let this turn into anything political or racist. We don't have a place for that here.

I'm not trying to be racist or political in my statements, and I apologize if this is how it comes across. It's the Chinese manufacturing machine that has been enabled to grow exponentially without controls, enabled by the US and most other countries consumers' rabid thirst in pursuit of inexpensive goods . . . that has snowballed out of control. The result is the weakening of established industrialized nations, and the ever increasingly limited selection of quality manufactured goods.

The end result for consumer electronics, is that those great companies who proudly pioneered this industry, have been either forced out or diluted in their missions through mergers and tremendous debt loads.

Years back to the 1960s, Japanese products were inferior to those produced by established industrialized nations. Possibly in the future, goods made in China will also come to represent quality. Until that time comes however, it is my opinion that practical or not, products "Made in China" will not be coming into our home.

[H.T.C]

There is word that had meaning one time,perhaps years ago,that work if people were willing to go the distance and it was called boycotting and it can achieve the same results today if necessary.

Oh,by the way b@w makes thier speakers in china so toss them in the garbage as well and stop paying for corporate entities to buy furcoats for the wives,xbox 360 and private schooling for the kids and fine cars with vacation homes in the country or just be happy because consumers want cheap with high pay but wont purchase a product made in america for a dollar more and walmart is the example.

[skuzzyb]

That is a very blanket statement. Do you own a computer mouse, an Ipod, a computer keyboard? There is a very good chance that those were in fact manufactured in China. It is inevitable that Chinese made goods will end up in our homes whether we like it or not. That is where a lot of manufacturing takes place.

Believe it or not, the US is still the largest manufacturing nation in the world, just will not be for much longer as the race to the bottom continues. Yes, there are a lot of cheaply made products coming from China, but there are also some world beating products that not only compete on price (which they can due to their cheaper labour costs, safety standards, etc), but also they can compete on features. One has to look no further than what is going on in the telecommunications world as companies such as Huawei who competes with the likes of Cisco. It will be very interesting how this all plays out.

You cannot really blame the Chinese for cheap consumer electronics, blame marketing firms such as Apple that convince consumers that convenience and sex sells regardless of the substance behind it, and the Wal Marts of the world that Americnas have a right to buy cheap goods regardless off the quality.

[merlinus]

There are some very high quality acoustic pianos coming from China. Many have been re-branded so as to appear to have been manufactured elsewhere.

But these instruments are far more affordable than many of the big names, have excellent construction and playability, and are slowly replacing the Japanese-made Kawais and Yamahas, which originally replaced the American Baldwins, Sohners and such.

[wettou]

A number of product in mid fi are made in China and have decent quality:

- Parasound, Rotel, Emotiva....

It is only a question of time when China will improve the quality the same way Japan did in the electronic and car industry and is now creaming the US. In addition it helped the US improve it's own quality

[beden1]

That is a very blanket statement. Do you own a computer mouse, an Ipod, a computer keyboard? There is a very good chance that those were in fact manufactured in China. It is inevitable that Chinese made goods will end up in our homes whether we like it or not. That is where a lot of manufacturing takes place.

I guess the best that I can say then, is that if there is a choice in products from different sources, I will select a different source.

[wettou]

Well then you might miss out in a lot of products, because a ton of products are made in China and this will only increase over time. Even Japan is shifting production to China. Economies of scale...

[beden1]

Well then you might miss out in a lot of products, because a ton of products are made in China and this will only increase over time. Even Japan is shifting production to China. Economies of scale...

Thus the problem for which I spoke!

But then again, I recently read where China's pay scales are rising due to increasing inflation, and companies are now eyeing alternative nations in their quest for the cheapest labor on the planet.

Maybe what comes around, will go around again, and again.

[beden1]

Well then you might miss out in a lot of products, because a ton of products are made in China and this will only increase over time. Even Japan is shifting production to China. Economies of scale...

I'm not sure how many quality products I will be missing out on, and particularly, I won't be missing "Parasound, Rotel, or Emotiva", as I'm only primarily interested in Classe and 800 Series B&W products that are made in Canada and England.

My other hobbies include mechanical watches (like my Patek Phillipe, Rolex(s) and Girard Perregeux from Switzerland), and cars (like my Corvette from the US, and our Mercedes-Benz and BMW from Germany), and boats like my Regulator from the US.

The next time a part breaks down on one of our cars however, I'll be sure to check if it was manufactured in China!

[H.T.C]

I really only made a comment because of the thread dealing with the manipulation of companies and how politicians have helped with ceos (comodore/amiga and wow did those workers get a big surprise that monday morning trying to get through a locked gate and a sign that said closed) destroyed, ravaged and disolved american manufacturing heritage and how a forum members animals were made environmentally ill by a food product produced in china and toys that bio-logically are poisonous to humans and yeah they make good products in china such as roy halls equipment and shortwave radios by kato which contain am/fm/sw/7 channel weather alert and 10gb removable mp3 player for $149.00 but that has nothing to do with american made products and good pay for workers to be able to aford them

I heard people say they buy from walmart because they cannot afford otherwise and if all these things which have become so monsterous and has a grasp on us which overtakes are families and friends then we dont deserve them.

[garak]

I'm not sure how many quality products I will be missing out on, and particularly, I won't be missing "Parasound, Rotel, or Emotiva", as I'm only primarily interested in Classe and 800 Series B&W products that are made in Canada and England.

My other hobbies include mechanical watches (like my Patek Phillipe, Rolex(s) and Girard Perregeux from Switzerland), and cars (like my Corvette from the US, and our Mercedes-Benz and BMW from Germany), and boats like my Regulator from the US.

The next time a part breaks down on one of our cars however, I'll be sure to check if it was manufactured in China!

beden1, I've found your posts in this thread offensive on so many levels.

First you generalize and characterize the Chinese people as dishonest and without honor. To make such broad statements about over 1 billion people is at best dubious. You owe and apology to 99% of those people.

Secondly, just because a product is made in China does not mean that it is of low quality, and conversely, just because it is made in the US or Europe does not mean it is of high quality. Take your Mercedes-Benz for example. It is German engineered and manufactured. However, year after year, MB ranks towards the bottom of the list in terms of quality and reliability.

http://www.businessweek.com/autos/autobeat/archives/2007/03/mercedes-benz_s.html

[joetama]

beden1, I've found your posts in this thread offensive on so many levels.

First you generalize and characterize the Chinese people as dishonest and without honor. To make such broad statements about over 1 billion people is at best dubious. You owe and apology to 99% of those people.

Secondly, just because a product is made in China does not mean that it is of low quality, and conversely, just because it is made in the US or Europe does not mean it is of high quality. Take your Mercedes-Benz for example. It is German engineered and manufactured. However, year after year, MB ranks towards the bottom of the list in terms of quality and reliability.

http://www.businessweek.com/autos/au...es-benz_s.html

The problem has NOTHING to do with where the products are made.

The problem is that the company allows low tolerances and crappy products. But, that isn't even the real problem.

With all of the factors and costs with producing anything in the US many companies have to move production over seas. They aren't moving so that the CEO can make more money. They aren't moving so they can buy that fur coat. They aren't moving so that they can buy that second Porsche. They are moving so that they can still offer Products to you at a cost you can afford. With the way things are going right now with the American Economy I wouldn't be surprised if there was a 50% - 150% increase on the cost of products produced here in America.

Looking at things from the business and employer prospective it is a scary picture of things. Most caused by the greed and want of employees. Alway wanting something for nothing and never working for it. It is scary how many people out there think they can go to work and screw off and expect a premium for it. Lack of productivity is the worst hidden expense of them all and it is going to cost us all in the end if we don't turn a lot of things around.

/rant

[H.T.C]

There are equal amounts of greed and laziness on all sides but atleast one part does have to worry about property taxes,medicare,gas,food price increase and cable television fees the same way the disillusioned and evaporating middle class does.

One other thing when unions no longer exist (because of thier own fault and executes) what will happen with independent shops? will the workers be treated fairly or not ?...only time will tell.

[beden1]

beden1, I've found your posts in this thread offensive on so many levels.

First you generalize and characterize the Chinese people as dishonest and without honor. To make such broad statements about over 1 billion people is at best dubious. You owe and apology to 99% of those people.

Secondly, just because a product is made in China does not mean that it is of low quality, and conversely, just because it is made in the US or Europe does not mean it is of high quality. Take your Mercedes-Benz for example. It is German engineered and manufactured. However, year after year, MB ranks towards the bottom of the list in terms of quality and reliability.

http://www.businessweek.com/autos/au...es-benz_s.html

First, I did not categorize Chinese people as dishonest and without honor. I targeted their lack of manufactured standards, including numerous published reports of Chinese goods that have caused deaths and potential severe health issues. In my book, it is both dishonest and without honor to produce childrens toys with toxic lead contents, as well as producing pet foods and products with toxins that have and are continuing to cause deaths and severe illnesses. But, these are just a limited example of the many, many issues that have surfaced regarding Chinese manufactured goods (including child car seats).

I have had numerous Mercedes-Benz models in our personal fleet since 1980, with great satisfaction and very limited problems. The main problem with most cars today, is that there are too many electronic gizmos and more things to go wrong. It's not just a Mercedes-Benz thing in my opinion. Mercedes no doubt gets more complaints due to the purchase costs.