Digital Pre-Amplifier

[RebelMan]

How do you listen to music?

Do you listen critically or casually? How much time is spent doing one or the other or both. Do you listen to vinyl records, compact discs or a media server? What percentage of your time is spent on each? How do you currently connect your equipment? How would you like to?

If by now you are wondering where this is going I'll tell you. As some of you may already know Classe' is going to be releasing their second generation processor the SSP-800 but not the SSP-700. The SSP-800 will be it. The SSP-700 was pushed out of the line-up because of the new pricing structure. Instead of the SSP-700 Classe' wants to develop a new high performance digital pre-amplifier.

Essentially all but the L and R channels from the SSP-800 would be removed and then the dollar savings would be reinvested back in to improve performance. Classe' is interested to know how you listen to music because the information would provide some direction in the development of the next pre-amplifier. If you are interested and wiling to offer your input Classe' wants to hear it.

[ryst]

Most cd's ,but i would like to have to possibility to connect a media server and stram .flac .wav and so on. Support for id tags of course.

So USB and ethernet inputs are welcome

[bigburner]

Hi RebelMan,

I presume that you are referring to a 2-channel digital pre-amplifier. Is that correct?

If so I would like it to combine the functionality of my current 2-channel analogue preamp (which includes phono input), my external DAC, the low pass frequency filter in my subwoofer, and it would allow me to take advantage of the hi-res audio formats that are usually associated with 5.1 systems.

A useful feature of the 5.1 processors that I have seen is the ability to adjust bass and treble controls, which is a feature of my current preamp but not found in high-end 2-channel preamps such as those manufactured by Classé. I don't know if Classé 5.1 processors provide this functionality but for me it is essential for any preamp because of the variety of music and the variable audio quality of the music that I listen to.

At the moment I use an external DAC for both CD and DVD listening. I would like this function to be incorporated into the preamp and include a USB input (as provided in the Benchmark DAC1).

The low pass frequency filter that I referred to above would allow me to vary the frequencies that are sent to my subwoofer and floorstanders. This functionality is currently provided by my subwoofer and is not as flexible as I would wish.

In summary the new Classé preamp would be a universal device for music loving 2-channel enthusiasts who want to connect a wide range of inputs ranging from an iPod for casual listening to DVD-A or Blu-ray for critical listening but do not wish to commit to a 5.1 system to enjoy the benefits of the high-end audio formats.

I work in the software development industry so I am well aware that increased functionality equates to increased cost. Therefore my wish list may be impractical, but allow me to indulge my fantasy!

I'm also not convinced that Classé would wish their brand to be associated with the universal product that I have described. If I were in their marketing department I would position the device that I have described as a music lover's preamp rather than an audiophile's preamp. In my mind there is a clear distinction between the two.

Nigel.

[RebelMan]

I presume that you are referring to a 2-channel digital pre-amplifier. Is that correct?

If so I would like it to combine the functionality of my current 2-channel analogue preamp (which includes phono input), my external DAC, the low pass frequency filter in my subwoofer, and it would allow me to take advantage of the hi-res audio formats that are usually associated with 5.1 systems.

You are correct.

The functionality that you described is exactly what Classe' has in mind. A pre-amplifier that can serve both analog and digital sources. It would provide all the standard connection interfaces and include an RJ45 and HDMI connection, USB not sure but that's what this thread is for to find out what people want. It would also provide internal DACs and all the necessary spatial and bass management features with PEQ capabilities. The product would be geared towards people with needs like yours and for those with more traditional requirements for 2CH stereo.

I'm also not convinced that Classé would wish their brand to be associated with the universal product that I have described. If I were in their marketing department I would position the device that I have described as a music lover's preamp rather than an audiophile's preamp. In my mind there is a clear distinction between the two.

I see your point and can agree. Do you see any reason why it can't be both?

Great input bigburner! Much appreciated.

[merlinus]

I listen to CDs. My player is hooked up via analog ports to my preamp.

I sometimes use treble and bass controls, and also speaker balance, although mostly I want a straight-through response.

Listening is always with a critical and discriminatory ear. Since I play classical and improvisational acoustic piano, realistic sound quality is most important.

hth...

[cug]

How do you listen to music?

1. 99% is listening to CDs. The rest comes from my iTunes library through an Airport Express station.

2. I really listen to the music about 80% of the time, the rest is "background".

3. I need exactly two inputs right now: CD and line. Maybe I need another two over time if other formats come up that require different players.

4. It should be affordable - that means below $3000 dollars. I don't need any features - input selection, volume. That's it.

5. XLR connectors for at least two inputs and the outputs would be nice.

6. It should be affordable. Less features, lower price.

7. If it does connect to music libraries like iTunes, it shouldn't be just one but more possible formats/protocols.

8. Did I say it should be affordable?

[ChrisssB]

- I listen to cds most of the time (99% and yes I sit down & listen critically.
Radio not often and only when I only need a sound wallpaper while I'm
doing something (work etc..)
- It would be great if the preamp include (even as an option) a
dac/upsampler.
- even if its 2 channel (and purists might slap me for this) a sub output.
- I think usb connection would be a clever thing to do, cause as I see it more
& more ppl store music on their hard drives (which BTW are excellent
transports) and many audiophile companies started to sell hi-rez/hi def
audio over the net. I think that if this is done the classe way (=excellent)
will be BIG news for the whole industry.

[RebelMan]

This is good feedback, (thanks merlinus, cug and ChrisssB). I hope more people will chime in. Classe' wants to hear form you. Now's the chance to be heard. I am going to follow up with Classe' in about a week or two for an update on the SSP-800. That's when I am going to tell them what people are looking for in a state-of-the-art (next gen) pre-amplifier. Classe' will cater to consensus needs but they need to know what those are. Please make yourself be heard! :B

Thanks again!

[cug]

Please make yourself be heard! :B

It's pretty cool when they create "state of the art" pre-amp - but actually, they have nothing for "normal" people. I assume, that I'm more or less normal, I have a good (but not great) salary, if I really wanted to, I could afford the gear, for me, they have nothing that really makes my think "Yes, that's great for me."

Maybe I'm just not in the target group - meaning, I don't have enough money or I'm not willing to spend outrageous amounts just for a HiFi system.

As I said, I can live with just a handful of well thought out features if the whole thing is a couple of thousand bucks closer to what I call affordable. And to give some numbers: I'd probably had less problems spending about 3,5k for an integrated or 5k for a small combo and 2k for a cd player. But 5,5k for the integrated, 8k for the combo, 3k for the cd player - sorry, that toggles the switch for me from just crazy to insane. And I'm really no cheapo guy!

Edit: Read this as "The gap between Rotel and Classé in the B&W group is plain too big. Price-wise. Performance-wise is Rotel not bad at all (at least when I just want a cd player and an amplifier) and the price you pay for the Classé gear is too far away from their group-mate. And that's a pity as it drives people to other brands - like Musical Fidelity with their A5.5 amp: no features, but power and quality for 2,5k."

[ChrisssB]

Well yes affordable is great!
But because I am not a rich guy a greater thing is the feeling that my hard earned money is justified by the performance. So far my feeling is of money well spend.
To combine the above would be perfect!

[Glen B]

It's pretty cool when they create "state of the art" pre-amp - but actually, they have nothing for "normal" people. I assume, that I'm more or less normal, I have a good (but not great) salary, if I really wanted to, I could afford the gear, for me, they have nothing that really makes my think "Yes, that's great for me."

Maybe I'm just not in the target group - meaning, I don't have enough money or I'm not willing to spend outrageous amounts just for a HiFi system.

As I said, I can live with just a handful of well thought out features if the whole thing is a couple of thousand bucks closer to what I call affordable. And to give some numbers: I'd probably had less problems spending about 3,5k for an integrated or 5k for a small combo and 2k for a cd player. But 5,5k for the integrated, 8k for the combo, 3k for the cd player - sorry, that toggles the switch for me from just crazy to insane. And I'm really no cheapo guy!

Edit: Read this as "The gap between Rotel and Classé in the B&W group is plain too big. Price-wise. Performance-wise is Rotel not bad at all (at least when I just want a cd player and an amplifier) and the price you pay for the Classé gear is too far away from their group-mate. And that's a pity as it drives people to other brands - like Musical Fidelity with their A5.5 amp: no features, but power and quality for 2,5k."

IMO, in the time of the legacy models Classé offered a much wider selection of products, ranging from more modest entry level components with minimal features at lower price, to the state-of-the art with all the features and their finest performance at higher price. For example, there was the Model 4 at $1,495, Model 5 at $2,295 and TOTL Model 6 at $3,295. The person with more modest means could still experience a taste of Classé performance without breaking the bank. Since the takeover by B&W and sharp increase in prices, my feeling is that wider range of selection within the Classé brand name is gone.

[cug]

Since the takeover by B&W and sharp increase in prices, my feeling is that wider range of selection within the Classé brand name is gone.

Which is fine if the would start just a bit above the Rotel line. But they are starting at least at double, often at 3 to 5 times the prices of the Rotel line. And that is too high. They loose customers with that price policy because there is nothing between the two brands.

[Ian D]

cug & Glen B I understand your point on pricing but suggest what you are talking about is the law of diminishing returns, the higher up the hi fi ladder you go, the more you have to pay to get a smaller improvement in sound quality. I think this applies to all manufacturers / groups and not just Classe/ B & W.

Back to thread I don't have an input as I want an all singing dancing processor that will play 2 channel superbly and make me want to stop at home and get a DVD rather than go the cinema, impossible ? I hope not I'm saving up for a SSP800 in the hope that will fit the bill :-)

Cheers Ian

[merlinus]

I am also hoping that the SSP-800 will provide both amazing two-channel stereo as well as superb surround processing. It would be a huge drag, and not only on my savings, to need a separate two-channel preamp in order to get the same quality.

In other words, no trade-offs!

[Telstar]

First of all I agree with Glen about the price policy.

About my music listening habits, its 80% CDs and 20% more or less compressed audio files on my Studio computer -i like to work while listening to music.

I have a DIY media server project ongoing for which I have not decided which DAC to get.

Ideally, a dac/preamp like this must:
-accept digital input (only i daresay)
-accept from 16/44 to 24/192 sample rate, including all standards inbetween to be ready for high-res
-have a digital volume control
-have an excellent D/A multibit converter with no less than 8x oversampling (exp for 44.1k).

Lastly, it should be priced under 5k$

[Eliav]

When on the move - car stereo or ipod.
Otherwise : 100% CD's in my listening room,90% of time critical listening .

Critical listening entails usually enjoying the finest details, 3D imaging etc.

at times critical listening means feeling the pain of my system not being perfect (i.e ; "shall I improve room acoustics" ? "may be I should place the speakers further back, toe in/out a little more" ? "should i upgrade to 800D" ? etc).... :W
Eliav

[Suresh T]

I would like to add to what Telstar stated:

- The quality of the DAC should yield very low jitter values. There is no reason why in this day and age, this should not be possible.
- Have HDMI, at least two coax S/PDIF, Toslink S/PDIF and AES/BEU digital inputs.
- Support upgradable architecture such as Theta Casablanca III.
- Possibly support some sort of digital tape loop design that will allow an external DSP unit OR have DSP upgrade available as an option.
- Have low ouput impedance (<200 ohms would be nice) for matching with any power amplifier.
- Have an option of external power supply that would bypass the internal one for better performance at a later time. PS Audio offers this on their Preamp.

Thanks!

[RebelMan]

I think we need to keep a fair perspective on pricing. The Classe' series have steadily increased over the years especially since the B&W group became involved. Having said that it's important to understand why. B&W has given Classe' creative room to breath by bankrolling much of the R&D needed to bring cutting edge technology to a high-end marquee. I think we all want modest pricing and high performance, that is a given. But a successful company like Classe' needs to remain profitable to survive and to continue making improvements.

Furthermore, if the prices they charge now means better support for the purchase in the long run then that extra cost should be seen as prepaid insurance. I have been fortunate enough to smartly invest my dollars into completive companies that are enduring and solvent. I have no worries that Classe' will be there to service my needs if and when they need attention especially during times when other companies have become incapable of doing comparatively. Classe' has become a better and stronger company with B&W supporting them. Likewise B&W has become a better company with Classe' systems engineering driving them in performance and market directions that never would have been possible previously.

[wettou]

Well you said it PROFITABILITY, Classé was dying before B&W injected substantial amount of capital $$$$$ into Classé.

Also B&W is very savy in marketing so they are positioning Classé as a top end brand for the B&W Nautilus Diamond series that is why they are pricing it in the same league. If you are willing to pay $20,000 for Nautilus 800D then, what is an other 10K for amps and so on. You drive your new Jag XKR with B&W and then you go home and listen to B&W Nautilus powered by Classé. What a life

So as a luxury brand Classé has an image to maintain and they will charge what ever the market will bear plus 20%. Why do people buy Louis Viton plastic bags made in China for thousands of dollars (cost $10 literally) when they can get very nice leather bags for 1/10th of the price? Snobs, Jones, advertising you name it!

Going back to Classé, also remember dealers cost is 40 to 50 points off the MSRP don't' forget. If Classé would sell direct like BelCanto use to do, they would be a lot more affordable and have more customers. I also believe that they don't want to play the volume their pricing strategy is high prices low volume but very high margins and therefore profitability .

Rebel Man to answer your questions: I listen 80% of the time to media server uncompressed wav and apple lossless files and 20% to SACD, forget regular CDs digital is the way to go.

For those of you who like classical and jazz music check out Linn website you can buy music at Studio Master level file FLAC or WAV at 24bit 88.2kHz, the only problem is the file size are huge (2,403.9MB for one CD) for example check out Scottish Chamber Orchestra Mozart Symphonies 38 - 41

Talk about very nice HiFi even beyond SACD :

[RebelMan]

Well you said it PROFITABILITY, Classé was dying before B&W injected substantial amount of capital $$$$$ into Classé.

This statement couldn't be further from the truth. The company remained profitable since it's inception. As Classé President, Mike Viglas, was nearing retirement he was looking at the future of the brand. Coincidentally, B&W was simultaneously looking for a high-end electronics brand to compliment it's speakers. Mike met with B&W CEO, Joe Atkins, and both felt the synergy between their respective brands was undeniable. That's what began the start of their perfect union. The relationship (Classé gets wider distribution channels and B&W gets complimentary electronics) benefited both parties, as all great marriages should.

By the way, thanks for your feedback.

[wettou]

You are welcome RebelMan, I truly enjoy the discussions with people who share the same passion of music and movies and nice gear.

What matter to me the most is trying to reproduce this concert hall