A Classe Upgrade

**bigburner** · 25 November 2007, 06:36 Sunday

You say "it’s all about the music". If the recording that you're listening to doesn't have PUNCH or SNAP then no amount of money spent on an amp is going to fix that problem.

If you want to improve the quality of your sound system the major gains are achieved by:
• using better source material, e.g. 24-bit 96 kHz recordings or CDs from a quality studio, or
• getting better speakers, or
• improving the acoustics in your room, or
• implementing a combination of all three.

Far smaller gains are achieved through upgrading CD/DVD players, DACS, preamps, amps, and cables.

**RobP** · 25 November 2007, 21:35 Sunday

Originally posted by bigburner

• improving the acoustics in your room.

This would be the first place to start and one of the most important, the greatest system will only go so far in a room that is not set up properly. I get plenty of punch and snap out of my older setup consisting of a CAV-180 and a pair of N803's, this was all achieved after proper speaker positioning, acoustical treatments and a pair of Sound Anchor stands for my mains.

**sikoniko** · 27 November 2007, 16:31 Tuesday

i definately agree with the importance of acoustics before upgrading again. I have thought about the CA-M400's a lot, and I really question the return they give 802d and below. I feel they are a necessary piece to the 801d and 800d, but when you put them on the 802d, there is a benefit, but the gain isn't as significant over any of the 200W amps. of course this is my opinion. I just don't feel the 802d's and below require the extra power.

the other thing to consider is your source, which I don't see that you mentioned specifically?

i love live music, but not for the audio quality. I enjoy it because you get to really hear the artist perform. I grew up listening to Aerosmith Live! Bootleg. What a great album. Most bands today play exactly whats on the album, and its truely a shame. That is one great thing about seeing a red hot chili peppers concert. you get to see musicians go crazy!

**RebelMan** · 27 November 2007, 19:40 Tuesday

Unfortunately, a pair of CA-M400’s is not going to double up performance over the CA-3200. Watt for watt they are pretty much the same. The mono's are a bit cleaner, have slightly better control and posses the capacity to go further longer but it is unlikely that you would revel in the return of investment. I suspect the "snap" you miss has more to do with the 8" drivers in your 802D than anything else. The bass response of the 800Ds is far greater than the 802Ds; they depend on a pair of CA-M400 to perform at their best.

I drove a pair of 803S with the same monoblocks for a time and they sounded great but in the same room with the same equipment the 800D stood out in ways I never contemplated. Bass from the 800D imaged perfectly. No other speaker in B&W's 800 Series lineup achieved this level of low frequency response. I could detect driver induced resonance with the others but not at all with the 800D. This resonance always prevented the other speakers from completely disappearing and having that seamless "snap" that I think you are alluding too.

**sg1d** · 27 November 2007, 23:55 Tuesday

Thanks to everyone who has replied to my post. I appreciate your candor and will take all your comments and suggestions into consideration. It’s great to know there’s some advice out there without a commitment to purchase!

A few comments for further thought and discussion:

BigBurner / Soundgravy / Sikoniko / RebelMan

• Better source material

As for the source itself…..I am currently running an Esoteric DV60 thru balanced interconnects to the Classe SSP600. In addition to the live recordings, my primary CD collection, although diverse across all forms of Classic Rock, Vocal and a bit of Classical, focuses specifically on late 50ies to early 60ies Jazz recordings, the majority of which were produced by Rudy Van Gelder, commonly regarded as one of the most important recording engineers in music history. I’ve replaced most of my originals with updated “RVG Edition” remasters. In addition, I’ve collected most of the JVC 20 bit K2 Remasters of the Prestige 50th Anniversary editions. I also have several XRCD’s, as well as, some SACD’s covering a similar genre. (That was the reason for the DV60 over the Classe 300….No SACD.) So as for source material, I think I’ve got some pretty good stuff, but I’m always open to suggestions.

• Getting better speakers

That would be a tough one. I spent significant time and energy listening to the Dynaudio line (along with Sim Audio gear). The Confidence line (C2) absolutely blew me away, but ergonomically it just didn’t do it for me and the Contours were just ok. I’d love to hear some Avantgardes some day, as well as, some Marten Design Coltrane’s, but from a price performance perspective, I felt the 802D’s provided fantastic reproduction, along with the somewhat “holographic” image I was looking for at a fairly reasonable price point. Not to mention they were just drop dead gorgeous. (In addition, I was a previous 803 user and still had my 805’s for the rear….) Perhaps the 30th Anniversary Dynaudio Sapphires might be lurking out there somewhere, but for the near term, the 802D is my weapon of choice.

• Improving the acoustics in your room

No question, this one is right on the money. I’ll upload some pictures at some point to give you all a quick look at my configuration and space and make some recommendations. The wife factor is definitely in play, but I think your all right about this one, I could use some help relative to acoustics, and I’m just not sure where to start.

• I love live music, but not for the audio quality

When it comes to the old live tapes and albums of the 70ies, 80ies and even 90ies, your right, most of them were crappy recordings that sounded horrible. I finally just tossed all my cassettes into the garbage. But these new live recordings are different. They come directly off the soundboard, with a bit of crowd mixed in for good measure. These recordings are exceptional in terms of their dynamics and relative to the other “high quality” discs in my collection; they are unmatched in terms of realism. For those of you who have heard Eric Claptons’ Crossroads Guitar Festival DVD from 2004, just reference the John Mayer Cut #18 at the end, City Love. (Can you feel it!). Clearly, the SACD’s are “better in the lab.” Cuts off Miles Davis “Round about Midnight,” and Steely Dan - “Gaucho”, have ridiculous fidelity which cannot be matched. Some of my Redbooks like Allison Kraus - New Favorite, or many of my higher quality Jazz recordings provide unmatched realism, but the live stuff just has different dynamics and timbre to it. I can’t explain it; you just need to check it out….

• I just don't feel the 802d's and below require the extra power.

Hmmm, so now we’re getting down to it. This is really what I was looking for. I know they will look great, and I have just the spot for them, but will it sound better? My dealer has offered to loan them to me, so I think I’ll take him up on it. As a follow up question what are your thoughts on these (2) configurations;

3200 running (802D / HTM2D) + 2100 running 805’s in the rear
vs.
3200 running (HTM2D / 805’s) + MA 400’s running 802D’s in the front

Does that change anything for you?

• Having that seamless "snap" that I think you are alluding too.

Wow, this comment was a lot to swallow, as I suspected you would provide. Some great perspective from a knowledgeable expert… So a bit cleaner and a bit more control….Not sure what you meant by “go further longer”, but I’ll look forward to some “further” explanation on that one… I think what I’m really getting at is “speed”, which I also think equates to rapid control. How fast can the drivers react, in a controlled fashion, to sharp increases in dynamics… Its kind of like the old days, when I used to hook up my Fender directly to my Fisher stereo system. OUCH !

So thanks again to everyone for your comments. I do appreciate all your expertise and very much enjoy taking part in this forum. I’ll let you all know what I think after the demo…

SG1D

**RebelMan** · 28 November 2007, 03:35 Wednesday

Originally posted by sg1d

• Having that seamless "snap" that I think you are alluding too.

Wow, this comment was a lot to swallow, as I suspected you would provide. Some great perspective from a knowledgeable expert… So a bit cleaner and a bit more control….Not sure what you meant by “go further longer”, but I’ll look forward to some “further” explanation on that one… I think what I’m really getting at is “speed”, which I also think equates to rapid control. How fast can the drivers react, in a controlled fashion, to sharp increases in dynamics… Its kind of like the old days, when I used to hook up my Fender directly to my Fisher stereo system. OUCH !

Too often people associate speed or "quickness of attack" with amplifier slew rates and damping factor and neglect the drivers doing the real work. The 800D gains considerable mass over the 802D. Some of the extra weight comes from the slightly larger cabinet but most of it comes from the massive magnets inside. The voice coils are beefier too. The woofer cone is obviously larger, for a reason, on the 800D but the increase in its mass is negligible compared to the cone on the 802D. An amplifier like the CA-M400 is necessary to feed these drivers the current they need to move and stop quickly.

The comments "further" and "longer" regarding the CA-M400 means the speakers can be driven to higher SPL's and concurrently sustain peak voltage output without clipping. All of Classe's amplifiers are built to react quickly but their performance will be limited by the input fed them and the speakers they drive. The 802D are great speakers and belong in your arsenal but to fully realize the "snap" you desire you'll have to look elsewhere for that kind of output (such as your front end or speakers), not just amplifier alternatives.

**sikoniko** · 28 November 2007, 09:17 Wednesday

Originally posted by sg1d

• I just don't feel the 802d's and below require the extra power.

Hmmm, so now we’re getting down to it. This is really what I was looking for. I know they will look great, and I have just the spot for them, but will it sound better? My dealer has offered to loan them to me, so I think I’ll take him up on it. As a follow up question what are your thoughts on these (2) configurations;

3200 running (802D / HTM2D) + 2100 running 805’s in the rear
vs.
3200 running (HTM2D / 805’s) + MA 400’s running 802D’s in the front

Does that change anything for you?

This is a tough call. Will there be a difference? Probably... how much? probably not enough to justify the expense. If you have the money to burn, and cost is not an issue, then yes, go with the CA-M400's. But, if you were in that position, you'd be buying 800D's as well, wouldnt you?

As far as acoustics, the best trick is to use a mirror. sit in your listening position and have someone slide a mirror along the side of the wall. there should be 2 positions per side. one for each speaker. when you see the speaker, mark it and slide to where you see the next speaker. repeat for the other side wall.

next, you'll need difusors to bounce the sound around. auralex makes good ones. you'll probably want to use the mirror trick for your ceiling and place diffusors on your ceiling and the back wall. some people put bookshelves on the back wall to acheive the same thing.

lastly, you'll want to put some bass traps in the corners, and possibly along hard angles. those are the basics of acoustics. remember, it is bad to use too much though.

**sikoniko** · 28 November 2007, 09:19 Wednesday

one other piece of advice!

consider getting sound anchors for your 802d's! they will improve the response and depth immensely.

**sikoniko** · 28 November 2007, 13:57 Wednesday

p.p.s - Aldo has the Classe Omega SACD player and thinks highly of it. you might want to inquire with him on it.

A Classe Upgrade

A Classe Upgrade

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