Is it worth it - from Rotel to Classe

[kchen]

Hi,

I am thinking about upgrading my Pre/pro to Classe ssp600. I am currently using Rotel rsp1068. Is it worth the money to do it? I am using the system 80/20 (movie/music). I know it's a difficult question. Can anyone answer my question?

[sikoniko]

the short answer is yes.

I started with the rotel rsx1055. I then upgraded to sherwood p965. then the bryston sp2 and finally the classe ssp-600. every upgrade has been a step up but none as dramatic as the step to the ssp-600.

[GregLett]

yes. yes. yes. :T

[Azeke]

I currently own some of the Rotel line, and if my financial circumstances were different I would definitely upgrade, it would simply be considered a step to the next level. Just my humble thoughts.

Peace and blessings,

Azeke

[kchen]

I believe the upgrade is at a different level. The ssp600 does not have the HDMI input. Do you think it's a big issue for ssp? I've heard Rotel just release 1069 which has HDMI input.

[Azeke]

I believe the upgrade is at a different level. The ssp600 does not have the HDMI input. Do you think it's a big issue for ssp? I've heard Rotel just release 1069 which has HDMI input.

Yes, but I don't believe the 1069 is currently available in the US. In reference to the HDMI inputs for a ssp, that really depends on your needs. If you want less cabling, loseless sound formats, and video upscaling as well as 1080p capabilities, then you may need to reconsider. You may also want to check out the hdmi.org (FAQ) website for further insight.

Here's how Dan Nauber Exec. VP of Classe addressed the HDMI inquiry.

Why doesn’t the SSP-600
include hi-res digital video and audio inputs?

If HDMI were included, you would still need
all the other input/output features offered in the
SSP-600. In a system – where HDMI is used by the
display device – all analogue video sources should
be converted to digital, then de-interlaced and
scaled if necessary. Doing this at a level
commensurate with the quality of the SSP-600 is
far from free. Proper HDMI functionality can be
added by way of the CDP-300 DVD player.

How does a buyer cope with more than one
device that uses HDMI?

The CDP-300 is designed to be upgradeable to a
model coming later this year called the CDP-300V.
The V, for video, has two HDMI inputs as well as
inputs for component and S-Video. Analogue video
is converted to digital, de-interlaced and scaled up
to 1080p. When used with an SSP-300 or SSP-600,
the main video outs of the SSP can be routed
through the CDP-300V for processing and
connected by a single HDMI output to your display.
This simplifies both the system cabling and
switching requirements. This solution
accommodates three HDMI sources, which should
suffice for quite some time.

Peace and blessings,

Azeke

[RebelMan]

kchen, there are big differences between the way the SSP-600 and RSP-1068 sound. It's still unknown if the RSP-1069 will sound any different from its older sibling but if there are any variations they will be slight. Your choice is going to depend on what matters to you most, the features or the sound quality.

If you are looking for an expansive soundfield with a slightly laidback feel to the action on the front screen then go Classe'. If you would rather have features or a more forward presentation and a compressed soundscape go Rotel.

The Rotel will initially sound more engaging but can quickly become agitating and tiresome. The Classe' with its superb multi-channel steering and post processing features produces an enveloping surround sound field that is truly seamless and believable. After living with my SSP-300 for nearly a year I realize I have no immediate need to upgrade to an HDMI processor just for the sake of HDMI. I can easily wait until Classe' offers their own variety of HDMI enabled SSPs which could be as soon as next spring.

[Nolan B]

Here is the one thing I struggle with most. High res PCM audio will sound better on the 1069 then a regular DVD with a Classe SSP, and right now this is all Classe has to offer. This IMO must be one of the biggest issues for audio/video dealers. Similarly a $179 game consle add on will produce a better picture then the best upconverting DVD player money can buy including any Classe player ever made.


I have been torn about upgrading all my gear to Classe, but to much is coming to fast with the new formats, and hardware from quality manufactures is just not catching up. This may be the "norm", but it seems to kinda contradict the market. IMO people who own higher end products like Classe would be more likely to buy into the new formats.

At this point the only reason I am going to by into a Rotel 1069 is because its adapting quicker then Classe. Even rotel is moving to slow IMO. I have heard arguements as to why that is, but its still to slow.

I may get roasted for saying this, but the bottom line is that Classe is just not showing value when taking into consideration what is hapening in the market place. Some type of shift or adaption needs to happen at the higher end producers in order to prove their 5k product is a better investment then a $500-$1000 product. This is not 2-3 years ago when HD DVD and BD wasnt around.

[sikoniko]

Here is the one thing I struggle with most. High res PCM audio will sound better on the 1069 then a regular DVD with a Classe SSP, and right now this is all Classe has to offer. This IMO must be one of the biggest issues for audio/video dealers. Similarly a $179 game consle add on will produce a better picture then the best upconverting DVD player money can buy including any Classe player ever made.


I have been torn about upgrading all my gear to Classe, but to much is coming to fast with the new formats, and hardware from quality manufactures is just not catching up. This may be the "norm", but it seems to kinda contradict the market. IMO people who own higher end products like Classe would be more likely to buy into the new formats.

At this point the only reason I am going to by into a Rotel 1069 is because its adapting quicker then Classe. Even rotel is moving to slow IMO. I have heard arguements as to why that is, but its still to slow.

I may get roasted for saying this, but the bottom line is that Classe is just not showing value when taking into consideration what is hapening in the market place. Some type of shift or adaption needs to happen at the higher end producers in order to prove their 5k product is a better investment then a $500-$1000 product. This is not 2-3 years ago when HD DVD and BD wasnt around.

Vancouver,

I support both HDDVD and BD and have an SSP-600, so I feel qualified to comment on your statement. Keep in mind, that I hope to maintain respect of your opinion in my telling my perspective.

New audio formats: is there really much of a difference from the old? At this point, the source players are capable of converting anything into a 1.5mb DTS track for optical use. By using analog outputs, you get the benefit of the new formats; however, you lose bass and you lose center channel. I quit using analog outputs in favor of using Optical for both formats. The benefit didn't outweigh the experience.

Can I tell a difference? On SOME disk's I would say "wow, this new format is great!" It can be deeper, richer, more embracing; however, 95% of all releases don't acheive that and so using optical is a rather moot point.

Is it a got-to-have-it at this point? Absolutely not. Is it a nice-to-have: yes! Being that I like audio first, I can say that I'd rather have an optical presentation on classe over an hdmi presentation on a rotel. Classe is that good.

Now, if you can wait until march of next year when Classe comes out with their $8k+ processors that support HDMI, and you have to have high bitstream now, go and buy an onkyo or something that has the features you want, as well as the rest of the classe stuff, because as far as I know, the amps aren't going anywhere, and when the new proc's come out you'll be ready to jump, as you'll have had six plus months to put a nice little nest egg away.

If your end game is classe, or any other high end unit, then I would not recommend spending the extra money on rotel, as you will take a loss on selling it or trading it when the classe units come out. get something that you can move to another room and don't mind taking a loss on.

[Nolan B]

[QUOTE=sikoniko]Vancouver,

New audio formats: is there really much of a difference from the old? At this point, the source players are capable of converting anything into a 1.5mb DTS track for optical use. By using analog outputs, you get the benefit of the new formats; however, you lose bass and you lose center channel. I quit using analog outputs in favor of using Optical for both formats. The benefit didn't outweigh the experience.

I think this is someyhing which is subjective. To me the audio improvement on the new formats can be as much of an improvement as the video. For me 80% of the tittles I own (45 BD/96 HD DVD) the increase in sound quality over 1.5mbps DTS is very noticable. Its as noticable as the difference between the DTS playback vs the lossless playback of DVD A for example.

Is it a got-to-have-it at this point? Absolutely not. Is it a nice-to-have: yes! Being that I like audio first,

This is where I feel very strong about my personal opinion on this. So much can be spent on our hobby to obtain little improvements. To me when a CE company is charging a premium price then it should have the "nice-to-have" features which produce a noticable improvment in sound. I am not talking about bells and whistles, but simply the ability to play back the highest quality of sound and video formats available to the massess.

I can say that I'd rather have an optical presentation on classe over an hdmi presentation on a rotel. Classe is that good.

If you are saying that you would rather have an optical 1.5 DTS presentation on Classe over a lossless TrueHD/PCM presentation on a Rotel then I must say I dissagree 100%. Try making that comparision on a movie like The Descent on BD, or Training Day on HD DVD.

Now, if you can wait until march of next year when Classe comes out with their $8k+ processors that support HDMI, and you have to have high bitstream now, go and buy an onkyo or something that has the features you want, as well as the rest of the classe stuff, because as far as I know, the amps aren't going anywhere, and when the new proc's come out you'll be ready to jump, as you'll have had six plus months to put a nice little nest egg away.

This is good advice if the Classe will infact come at that time. I will say however that Bitstream is not what I am after and therefor would not feel a need to buy into onkyo. PCM is all I need.

If your end game is classe, or any other high end unit, then I would not recommend spending the extra money on rotel, as you will take a loss on selling it or trading it when the classe units come out. get something that you can move to another room and don't mind taking a loss on.

My end game is classe which is high end, but in my books classe is no longer high end when taking into consideration the current state of available media. Keep in mind that all my points are based on SSPs and media players only, not amps.

I guess I am in a bit of a inuque situation as my dealer has a trade in program, so trading in my 1068 for a 1069 will not net a huge investment. That point aside i still want to see the value when making a change. Classe is just not offering it to people who are into HD DVD and BD. Analog inputs work for one choice only, and is a band aid solution at best.

It may not make good business sense for Classe to jump into the new formats at this time, and I guess that will just result in a loss to me for not being able to enjoy Classe with the new formats, and a loss to Classe to not get my business.

I have said this before and Ill say it again even thou I will probably shock a few. I wouldnt pay $100 bucks for the worlds best DVD player which includes classe. I realize that our posts are more geared towards SSPs then DVD players, but my attitude on this topic as narrow as it is runs similar.

[sikoniko]

[QUOTE=Vancouver]

Vancouver,
I think this is someyhing which is subjective. To me the audio improvement on the new formats can be as much of an improvement as the video. For me 80% of the tittles I own (45 BD/96 HD DVD) the increase in sound quality over 1.5mbps DTS is very noticable. Its as noticable as the difference between the DTS playback vs the lossless playback of DVD A for example.

I agree, on the titles that do use the lossless formats, there is a difference on movies that benefit from it. I'm just saying that they are the minority at this point.

This is where I feel very strong about my personal opinion on this. So much can be spent on our hobby to obtain little improvements. To me when a CE company is charging a premium price then it should have the "nice-to-have" features which produce a noticable improvment in sound. I am not talking about bells and whistles, but simply the ability to play back the highest quality of sound and video formats available to the massess.

This is where you have to realize that boutique companies just cannot do this. Companies like Onkyo, Denon, Yamaha, etc are high volume companies. Companies like Classe, Mc, Bryston probably sell around 50 units a year in the US. They have to be more selective on the choices they make.

If you are saying that you would rather have an optical 1.5 DTS presentation on Classe over a lossless TrueHD/PCM presentation on a Rotel then I must say I dissagree 100%. Try making that comparision on a movie like The Descent on BD, or Training Day on HD DVD.

If your dealer gives you the opportunity, I'd be interested in you comparing the two directly. Classe is in a different league from Rotel.

My end game is classe which is high end, but in my books classe is no longer high end when taking into consideration the current state of available media. Keep in mind that all my points are based on SSPs and media players only, not amps.

not sure I follow your logic.

I guess I am in a bit of a inuque situation as my dealer has a trade in program, so trading in my 1068 for a 1069 will not net a huge investment. That point aside i still want to see the value when making a change. Classe is just not offering it to people who are into HD DVD and BD. Analog inputs work for one choice only, and is a band aid solution at best.

please refer to my earlier comment. Keep in mind that classe has changed the way they view HDMI. As the earlier post states, they were going to add it to the dvd player, which is propietary and I am glad they decided away from that.

It may not make good business sense for Classe to jump into the new formats at this time, and I guess that will just result in a loss to me for not being able to enjoy Classe with the new formats, and a loss to Classe to not get my business.

Keep in mind that a lot of companies were waiting for HDMI 1.3 before releasing a product. Although HDMI 1.1 is the only thing we need, I think perception would be that its a gotta have.

I have said this before and Ill say it again even thou I will probably shock a few. I wouldnt pay $100 bucks for the worlds best DVD player which includes classe. I realize that our posts are more geared towards SSPs then DVD players, but my attitude on this topic as narrow as it is runs similar.

noones arguing this point.

interesting discussion. hope its beneficial to others. :T

[RebelMan]

I think this is someyhing which is subjective. To me the audio improvement on the new formats can be as much of an improvement as the video. For me 80% of the tittles I own (45 BD/96 HD DVD) the increase in sound quality over 1.5mbps DTS is very noticable. Its as noticable as the difference between the DTS playback vs the lossless playback of DVD A for example.

Hi Vancouver, what Dan is saying is true to an extent.

It's not the quantity of pre-processed data that matters but rather the quality of the post-processed data that does. LOSSLESS encodings will capture more information than LOSSY encodings and should "theoretically" sound better. The assumption is, however, that the source is well mastered and the processors handling the data stream are one and the same. The reality is that many older transfers were not well mastered and different processors are under consideration in this thread. Different processors are going to manipulate the digital signals in varied and unique ways. The resultant sound from each will be different given the same input.

What if the inputs are different? Feeding a lower end processor a higher quality signal is not going to yield better results than feeding a lower quality signal into a higher end processor. This is because the only advantage LOSSLESS encoding gives over LOSSY encodings is higher resolution not higher fidelity. A LOSSLESS encoding has the potential of producing more coherent dialog, improved dynamics and increased dimensional realism. But it will have limited impact on soundstaging, imaging, extension, response, color, transients, timbre, tonality, accuracy and articulation where the processor dominates. It's these qualities and/or characteristic that defines each processor and distinguishes it from others.

If you are saying that you would rather have an optical 1.5 DTS presentation on Classe over a lossless TrueHD/PCM presentation on a Rotel then I must say I dissagree 100%. Try making that comparision on a movie like The Descent on BD, or Training Day on HD DVD.

If you disagree then that is because you haven’t been properly introduced. I have Training Day on Blu-ray and the DD version of the surround sound track would knock your socks off. My next door neighbor stopped by today to have a listen to my system using a number of DD Blu-ray discs. Several months ago when I was reassembling my system he was very skeptical that my HT could sound much better than what was already on the market today in terms of sound quality. But after today's demonstration he admitted and with some reluctance I might add (he’s not easily impressed and he knew he was about to eat crow) that what he heard was “awesome” and that “you got me”. The moral of this story is that a system done properly doesn’t need to be “cutting edge” to sound impressive in today's HT market.

My end game is classe which is high end, but in my books classe is no longer high end when taking into consideration the current state of available media. Keep in mind that all my points are based on SSPs and media players only, not amps.

Classe’s current SSPs are high-end but perhaps not high-resolution or what I prefer to call high-end resolution. Still, if you want to avoid a serving of crow you need to be properly introduced or better yet wait until next spring for the SSP-800. It's going to amaze like no other!

[Nolan B]

Hi RebelMan, thanks for your reply and I hope this thread continues.

Hi Vancouver, what Dan is saying is true to an extent.

It's not the quantity of pre-processed data that matters but rather the quality of the post-processed data that does.

I can't say that for me this rule always runs true, and may only run true when taking into consideration two extremes of processing quality. I dont think a Rotel vs Classe are on the total opposite end of the spectrum, and beleive (althought will do a test) that TrueHD 48kHz/24-Bit 10,15 or 20+ mbps signal sent through a Rotel will sound better then a then a lossy 16 bit 640kbps from the same master through a Classe. I will however do the test when the Rotel arrives.

LOSSLESS encodings will capture more information than LOSSY encodings and should "theoretically" sound better. The assumption is, however, that the source is well mastered and the processors handling the data stream are one and the same. The reality is that many older transfers were not well mastered and different processors are under consideration in this thread.

In order for me not to get to confused with this topic lets assume the same master is used (good or bad) when doing a comparison. Yes some have been bad, and some have been good. My personal taste is there are more good ones then bad ones, and the bad ones (for the most part) are expected to be so due to the age or nature of the movie.

Different processors are going to manipulate the digital signals in varied and unique ways. The resultant sound from each will be different given the same input.

What if the inputs are different? Feeding a lower end processor a higher quality signal is not going to yield better results than feeding a lower quality signal into a higher end processor.

Here is where this topic gets a little foggy IMO. Let me ask you these questions and answer it in your reply so I get a feel for what you mean exactly.

Consider this for the questions. You have a system and lets say it consists the follow equipment; SSP-600, CAV-5200, N-802D x4, HTM1D centre, REL B1subwoofer, Toshiba XA2 HD DVD player oh and Silver KingCATS :T The movie we are going to use for these questions is 300 on HD DVD which has the following specs and got a 5 out of 5 for its audio.

English Dolby TrueHD (48kHz/16-bit)
English DTS 1.5mbps

http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/300.html

Question #1
Using the equipment listed which option sounds better

1.) XA2 sending a lossless TrueHD signal to the Classe SSP 600 via its analog outputs. (ok technically its not sending TrueHD at this point but you know what I mean). In this case the Classe SSP 600 does litttle but pass the signal through to the CAV-5200

2.) XA2 sending DTS 1.5mbps (at its max) to the Classe 600 via its digital coax. In this Case obviously the SSP 600 does its version of processing.

Which would net a more enjoyable way to watch the movie?

Question #2
Same equipment (except we change the processor) as question 1 and same movie. Which option sounds better?

1.) XA2 sending a lossless TrueHD signal to the Rotel 1098 via its analog outputs. (ok technically its not sending TrueHD at this point but you know what I mean). In this case the Rotel 1098 does litttle but pass the signal through to the CAV-5200.

2.)XA2 sending DTS 1.5mbps (at its max) to the Classe 600 via its digital coax. In this Case obviously the SSP 600 does its version of processing.

Which would net a more enjoyable way to watch the movie?

This is because the only advantage LOSSLESS encoding gives over LOSSY encodings is higher resolution not higher fidelity.

I think the term "higher fidelity" is pefect to describe lossless, and you cant say you only get higher resolution and not higher fidelity with lossless. With lossless you get a higher resolution AND higher fidelity.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fidelity

"Audio, Video. the degree of accuracy with which sound or images are recorded or reproduced"

Lossless is bit for bit exactly how the director indended it to sound. You cant get more accurate then that.

**I dont mean to be cheeky with that response or the dictionary link. I actually had to look it up myself to understand the term so i can try to interpret what you meant.

A LOSSLESS encoding has the potential of producing more coherent dialog, improved dynamics and increased dimensional realism. But it will have limited impact on soundstaging, imaging, extension, response, color, transients, timbre, tonality, accuracy and articulation where the processor dominates. It's these qualities and/or characteristic that defines each processor and distinguishes it from others.

Arnt many of those things determind by the amp? I am going to have to do a deeper comparison myself.

If you disagree then that is because you haven’t been properly introduced.

Can you please explain what you mean by "properly introduced"?

The moral of this story is that a system done properly doesn’t need to be “cutting edge” to sound impressive in today's HT market.

Unless i was unclear in my original post on in this thread this is what I was trying to say.

Classe’s current SSPs are high-end but perhaps not high-resolution or what I prefer to call high-end resolution. Still, if you want to avoid a serving of crow

I am not affraid of eating crow, as I am more concerned with what is right rather then who is right, and if an accurate test proves me wrong then I am happy to have learned.

better yet wait until next spring for the SSP-800. It's going to amaze like no other!

No one is likely going to dispute that.

[sikoniko]

I know you invited James to reply, but again, I think I am in a position to reply as I have tested the Analog outputs of the XA1 vs the optical output for HDDVD movies. My biggest issue with using the analog outputs is that I could never get the calibration right. The center would be extremely low and the sub non-existant. I understand some changed the speakers to "Large" to resolve the center issue and some use external devices, such as the velodyne SMS-1 to add gain to the sub, and some receivers/proc's allow you to add gain to the analog inputs. Option 2 and 3 were not available to me and option 1 didn't seem to make a difference. I am curious to hear if these issues have been resolved by newer generation players, as this is my biggest beef with the XA1.

my system:
SSP-600
CA-3200
Parasound 275 (only until I can afford a classe amp for the rears)
XA1
N802x2
NHTM1
NSCM1x2

Not a diamond system, but still better than the 803d's in my opinion. Once you've had marlan you can never go back!

Now, on to your questions:

Question #1
Using the equipment listed which option sounds better

1.) XA2 sending a lossless TrueHD signal to the Classe SSP 600 via its analog outputs. (ok technically its not sending TrueHD at this point but you know what I mean). In this case the Classe SSP 600 does litttle but pass the signal through to the CAV-5200


2.) XA2 sending DTS 1.5mbps (at its max) to the Classe 600 via its digital coax. In this Case obviously the SSP 600 does its version of processing.

Which would net a more enjoyable way to watch the movie?

Option 2. Option one is very difficult to get calibrated correctly (see above). You also lose out on bass. If you raise the bass on the sub, it is too high for other sources and causes for configuration challenges.

Question #2
Same equipment (except we change the processor) as question 1 and same movie. Which option sounds better?

1.) XA2 sending a lossless TrueHD signal to the Rotel 1098 via its analog outputs. (ok technically its not sending TrueHD at this point but you know what I mean). In this case the Rotel 1098 does litttle but pass the signal through to the CAV-5200.

2.)XA2 sending DTS 1.5mbps (at its max) to the Classe 600 via its digital coax. In this Case obviously the SSP 600 does its version of processing.

Which would net a more enjoyable way to watch the movie?

Option 2. James and I had a conversation on this and to compare rotel to classe is to compare mp3 audio to cd audio. classe is beyond transparent.

[Nolan B]

Option 2. James and I had a conversation on this and to compare rotel to classe is to compare mp3 audio to cd audio. classe is beyond transparent.

I find this interesting. You feel it would be better to listen to lossy DTS with a Classe SSP then lossless TrueHD with a the Rotel 1098.

yet you make a comparision right after that comparing rotel to classe is like comparing an MP3 to CD audio.

I am trying to make the arguement that lossless is better then compressed, which is similar to the analogy of MP3s vs CD when comparing Rotel to Classe

I guess I am going to have to see/hear for myself. While I respect both of your opinions I am not convinced. As soon as my 1069 is in I will do the test at my dealer.

[sikoniko]

I find this interesting. You feel it would be better to listen to lossy DTS with a Classe SSP then lossless TrueHD with a the Rotel 1098.

yet you make a comparision right after that comparing rotel to classe is like comparing an MP3 to CD audio.

I am trying to make the arguement that lossless is better then compressed, which is similar to the analogy of MP3s vs CD when comparing Rotel to Classe

I guess I am going to have to see/hear for myself. While I respect both of your opinions I am not convinced. As soon as my 1069 is in I will do the test at my dealer.

I do and I welcome your demo. Be sure that the dealer changes your pre without you knowing which is which. Im interested in your results.

[RebelMan]

Vancouver, essentially you are comparing an electrical signal to an electrical device and coming to the conclusion that the signal is more important than the device. You also seem led to believe that a high quality signal will make for a high quality processor. Neither circumstance is an accurate assessment of the situation. A Rotel processor will sound like a Rotel processor regardless of the signal. A better signal is not going to magically transform a Rotel processor into sounding like or better than a Classe' processor nor will it ideally represent the truth. A better signal makes for a better sounding Rotel, that's all.

Consider this analogy...

You have two cars one is a luxury car and the other an economy car. If you give both cars the same fuel which do you think will offer a more comfortable ride? Now, if you give the luxury car a low quality low octane fuel and the economy car a high quality high octane fuel which do you think will offer a more comfortable ride? The answer will depend on what is considered "comfortable". The luxury car may knock and sputter and lack power on uphill climbs but the ride will still feel good. The economy car will run like a champ but the ride will still be stiff and fatiging over long commutes. The point is that the quality and type of fuel is not going to change the type of car you drive. Likewise, the quality and type of signal you use is not going to change the type of processor you have.

I can't say that for me this rule always runs true, and may only run true when taking into consideration two extremes of processing quality. I dont think a Rotel vs Classe are on the total opposite end of the spectrum, and beleive (althought will do a test) that TrueHD 48kHz/24-Bit 10,15 or 20+ mbps signal sent through a Rotel will sound better then a then a lossy 16 bit 640kbps from the same master through a Classe. I will however do the test when the Rotel arrives.

The Rotel and Classe' are vastly different on sonic qualities. I can summarize each personality which are varied to some degree as follows... Rotel is analytical, bright, forward, cool, flat and compressed. Classe' is refined, dark, laidback, warm, full and expansive. Again these are the major overall characteristic differences between both brands and are independent of the signals input. Better signals will bring out more of each brand's character but they will not change their character.

In order for me not to get to confused with this topic lets assume the same master is used (good or bad) when doing a comparison. Yes some have been bad, and some have been good. My personal taste is there are more good ones then bad ones, and the bad ones (for the most part) are expected to be so due to the age or nature of the movie.

Here is where this topic gets a little foggy IMO. Let me ask you these questions and answer it in your reply so I get a feel for what you mean exactly.

Consider this for the questions. You have a system and lets say it consists the follow equipment; SSP-600, CAV-5200, N-802D x4, HTM1D centre, REL B1subwoofer, Toshiba XA2 HD DVD player oh and Silver KingCATS :T The movie we are going to use for these questions is 300 on HD DVD which has the following specs and got a 5 out of 5 for its audio.

English Dolby TrueHD (48kHz/16-bit)
English DTS (1.5 Mbps)

Question #1
Using the equipment listed which option sounds better

1.) XA2 sending a lossless TrueHD signal to the Classe SSP 600 via its analog outputs. (ok technically its not sending TrueHD at this point but you know what I mean). In this case the Classe SSP 600 does litttle but pass the signal through to the CAV-5200

2.) XA2 sending DTS 1.5mbps (at its max) to the Classe 600 via its digital coax. In this Case obviously the SSP 600 does its version of processing.

Which would net a more enjoyable way to watch the movie?

I do not own an XA2 so I will have to make some extrapolations based on my experience of using a Classe' CDP-300 player with DVD-A/DTS music discs.

If the bass management features and DAC's are proven in the player then the first option (1.) would be best.

Question #2
Same equipment (except we change the processor) as question 1 and same movie. Which option sounds better?

1.) XA2 sending a lossless TrueHD signal to the Rotel 1098 via its analog outputs. (ok technically its not sending TrueHD at this point but you know what I mean). In this case the Rotel 1098 does litttle but pass the signal through to the CAV-5200.

2.)XA2 sending DTS 1.5mbps (at its max) to the Classe 600 via its digital coax. In this Case obviously the SSP 600 does its version of processing.

Which would net a more enjoyable way to watch the movie?

Using my previous Rotel RDV-1050 player and RSX-1056 with 6 RCA's versus my current Classe' CDP-300 player and SSP-300 with one AES/EBU as a guide I would pick option two (2.) and that was with a DTS 768 kbps signal on the Classe'!

I think the term "higher fidelity" is pefect to describe lossless, and you cant say you only get higher resolution and not higher fidelity with lossless. With lossless you get a higher resolution AND higher fidelity.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fidelity

"Audio, Video. the degree of accuracy with which sound or images are recorded or reproduced"

Lossless is bit for bit exactly how the director indended it to sound. You cant get more accurate then that.

**I dont mean to be cheeky with that response or the dictionary link. I actually had to look it up myself to understand the term so i can try to interpret what you meant.

"High Fidelity" means this and only this... "input equals output". With respect to pre-recorded media you are correct, with respect to signal reproduction I am correct. We are discussing the latter of this matter.

Arnt many of those things determind by the amp? I am going to have to do a deeper comparison myself.

In some small part yes. The bulk is determined by the pre/pro.

Can you please explain what you mean by "properly introduced"?

A comparison conducted between two electronic systems in the same room with the same speaker array under the same tightly controlled methods.

[RebelMan]

I guess I am going to have to see/hear for myself. While I respect both of your opinions I am not convinced. As soon as my 1069 is in I will do the test at my dealer.

Looking forward to it. Would like to know how you conduct your evaluation too.

[dmccombs]

Vancouver,

I was in a similar situation to you. I had a high end Denon Reciever that had HDMI, but want to upgrade to one of the sweet sound Prepros. The problem was/is that few of them had HDMI.

I ultimately upgred to a Halcro Prepro which doesn't have HDMI yet. I much prefer soundtracks via DTS on the Halcro to HDMI on the Denon. The soundstage and clarity of the DTS/Halcro is way better tahn what I heard with the HDMI/Denon. Even though the HDMI allowed a better source to be played, the Denon was not able to provide the clarity and soundstage.

I know the Rotel you are considering is better than the Denon I had, but my point is that despite the superior output from the source, a better Prepro may yeild better results.

I think we can banter back and forth, but in this case you probably will have to test both the Rotel and a Classe prepro to know for sure.

Good Luck with your choice.
Darrell

[soundhound]

I think we can banter back and forth, but in this case you probably will have to test both the Rotel and a Classe prepro to know for sure.

Good Luck with your choice.
Darrell

And there it is, the honest answer to kchen's original question.

[RebelMan]

soundhound, ALL of the responses have been forthright.

[soundhound]

I don't doubt that.
The people who pose subjective questions looking for definitive answers will hopefully one day figure it out.
It does make for some interesting reading.

[sikoniko]

the thing is, opinions were requested. True, only he can be the ultimate deciding factor. However, he asked for opinions in a public forum. And those opinions were honest based on others observations.