Some speaker driver measurements...

[tktran]

Bravo, sage!

But you can certainly can get less, for more.

I’ve yet to see or hear an Accuton, Dynaudio, Eton, Focal or Morel 6.5” midwoofer that’s as a good as an equivalently priced SEAS W19NX-001.

I think we’re all a bit miffed that SEAS and Scan-Speak have joined the price race to the stratosphere.

Many of us probably miss the days of the cheap and cheerful Peerless and Vifa drivers… where everything was still priced in 2 figures…

[Reet]

At Solen the Purifi competitor is CAD$150 less, so I would save $300 to go that route. For that price I get additional transparency in the datasheet, a few more mm of excursion, and a talking piece when people see them in person. And one might say "walks all over it" on performance. The seas is only marginably better than a Wavecor at 1/3 of the price, and give the small difference in performance I would be surprised if anyone can reliably tell the difference between the two. It's barely a "revelator beater" and those drivers are what, 15 year old technology now?

Seas W18NX I guess is better value than their Alnico and diamond drivers, but still very poor. What justifies a 100% price hike over the old model? I don't doubt it has a superior motor, that much is obvious just from the impedance. It better have some really complicated tooling to justify the change in cost. Still uses ceramic magnet, same cone and soft parts as previous model, same frame as even the prestige models. At least with Purifi you can justify tooling for the special surround, and probably a lower volume of production as they're a new competitor in the market. Same can be said for Scan Ellipticor, questionable performance benefits aside, at least the price can be somewhat justified in the tooling and manufacturing process changes needed to accommodate building the product.

Anyway, end of rant. In summary, I'm not a customer for this product. My assumption on the price is that Seas doesn't want to deal with low volume sales to DIY market anymore, or they want OEM customers to think they're getting a heck of a deal when they sell it for much much less at volume.

[Reet]

..and then investigate the NSRC surround to get a good idea of how to eliminate/reduce surround resonances.

FWIW there's little investigation needed on NRSC, they literally just cut the corners off the cone, if you could ever cut corners off of a circle Any photo of the backside of a TG9 will show you this. IIRC, also present on most/all of the Scan Discovery line.

"Our patented PentaCut technology is a five-sided cut around the cone that prevents severe cone breakup and distributes cone breakup modes. By adding cuts to the cone, we are able to spread out the distortion modes, which helps us gain more control of the smoothness of the frequency response, while also achieving reduced distortion."

[tktran]

Well it’s clear to me that SEAS and Scan-Speak are now boutique companies. Just last month Scan-Speak posted on their Facebook page that they were looking for more staff; they only have 30 employees.

Meanwhile Tymphany which absorbed the Vifa and Peerless technologies have, according to their website, have over 450 technical/managerial staff alone, 650,000 sq ft of manufacturing space (I don’t know if that’s big or not) but at least produce raw drivers (6.5 Million per month) all the way up to complete amplified speakers/solutions.

[5th element]

And lots of the those Tymphany drivers cost less than lunch but still include copper in the motor. Yet Scanspeak and SEAS can't do this unless you spend hundreds of dollars. It's bizarre as a business model as far as I'm concerned. I was genuinely hoping for both Scan and SEAS to start introducing more advanced motors into their standard lines, at similar cost, whilst discontinuing the older parts and bringing them into the 21st century once and for all. No such luck. In fact what surprised me the most was when Scanspeak released the Discovery line's woofers without copper caps in all the drivers (some of them don't even have an aluminium shorting ring! Come on Scan did you just forget how to build a good driver?). If you can buy a $5 driver with a copper cap Scan sure as hell can put them into the Disco line.

They are deliberately selling you sub-standard products, (I see a copper cap as a basic piece of cheap, known, tech these days) in an attempt to create a market for their more expensive drivers. And lets not forget the Disco line aren't exactly cheap either. It's very disappointing.

[Reet]

I was genuinely hoping for both Scan and SEAS to start introducing more advanced motors into their standard lines, at similar cost, whilst discontinuing the older parts and bringing them into the 21st century once and for all. No such luck.

Scan-Speak introduced an entirely new brand to cover this market segment, Punktkilde. They are designed by Scan-Speak but produced by Eastech in Asia.

While you guys are talking about "employee count" as a measure of company size, might want to include Eastech when talking about Scan-Speak:

https://www.eastech.com/about-us

In fact what surprised me the most was when Scanspeak released the Discovery line's woofers without copper caps in all the drivers (some of them don't even have an aluminium shorting ring! Come on Scan did you just forget how to build a good driver?).

As unfortunate as it may be, the Discovery line is mostly re-introduction of old products with minor changes (re-discovery if you will ). I believe the reason would be something to do with the departure from Tymphany. I am certain that under the old D-S-T arrangement Scan-speak may have designed an owned some of the IP in the Vifa and Peerless products. Discovery woofers mostly originated as the old Vifa PL or M series with new different cones, and the same goes for the subwoofers, new parts on the old XXLS design.

[5th element]

Re-descovery indeed but they could have still updated the motors by something as simple as adding a copper cap.

[JonMarsh]

Bravo, sage!

But you can certainly can get less, for more.

I’ve yet to see or hear an Accuton, Dynaudio, Eton, Focal or Morel 6.5” midwoofer that’s as a good as an equivalently priced SEAS W19NX-001.

I think we’re all a bit miffed that SEAS and Scan-Speak have joined the price race to the stratosphere.

Many of us probably miss the days of the cheap and cheerful Peerless and Vifa drivers… where everything was still priced in 2 figures…

While I think it would be interesting to test the SEAS W19NX-001, I’m not sure it’s interesting enough to cough up the bucks at this point- I have pricey experiment in progress, and that’s all I’m allowing myself this year!

Now, knowing how Seas tests on actual enclosures, not infinite baffles, I can interpret the plots for this part to some degree, but my question considering what happens above 1500Hz is just how high is this part actually useful? Questionable whether a two way with a robust tweeter is feasible. And that’s OK… but it narrows the application options. And they’re all pricey.. Mostly I’d be very curious to see two tone IM, as well as conventional HD sweeps. That’s on my long personal To-Do list, once relocation tasks are finished, is to explore using the Audio Precision for IM spectral tests. I have the acoustics testing module for the AP anyway.

[tktran]

I used an SPL trace tool and I think the furthest one could extend it is 1.70 +/- 0.1Khz LR4.
Which is not a problem for a robust tweeter or a waveguided tweeter.

But the $500 question is whether one make a better 2 (or 3) -way in a 20-24L cabinet that the W19NX needs...

[HiFiCompass]

Old measurements updated with IMD and the voice coil HD distortion data:
SB Acoustics SB17CRC35-8 | HiFiCompass
SB Acoustics SB17NBAC35-8 | HiFiCompass
Accuton AS168-9-470 | HiFiCompass
Accuton C168-6-990 CELL | HiFiCompass

[tktran]

Yevgeniy,

When doing these IMD tests, do you get a chance to listen too?

It’s interesting that the SB Acoustics drivers do very well with small excursions in the IMD test but
But performance really drops past the x-max of 5.5mm.
Secondly, the CRC driver seems to measure better.

But how does this correlate to listening?
My interpretation of the data: the CRC sounds cleaner; (Less hash)
If this is not observable, then the other side of the coin is that the CRC can play slightly louder (1-2dB) without obvious distortion than the NBAC.
Which bring to the point- cone material does matter; regardless of what you do with the low pass crossover. It’s be interesting to see how the CAC measures in the IMD test.

And assuming a tweeter in a 2 way system-
assuming an acoustic 2Khz LR4 crossover, at 500Hz the tweeter is only 48dB down

Would the IMD products >500Hz be masked by a tweeter?

What does the listening show? ;-)

[HiFiCompass]

Yevgeniy,

When doing these IMD tests, do you get a chance to listen too?

It’s interesting that the SB Acoustics drivers do very well with small excursions in the IMD test but
But performance really drops past the x-max of 5.5mm.
Secondly, the CRC driver seems to measure better.

But how does this correlate to listening?
My interpretation of the data: the CRC sounds cleaner; (Less hash)
If this is not observable, then the other side of the coin is that the CRC can play slightly louder (1-2dB) without obvious distortion than the NBAC.
Which bring to the point- cone material does matter; regardless of what you do with the low pass crossover. It’s be interesting to see how the CAC measures in the IMD test.

And assuming a tweeter in a 2 way system-
assuming an acoustic 2Khz LR4 crossover, at 500Hz the tweeter is only 48dB down

Would the IMD products >500Hz be masked by a tweeter?

What does the listening show? ;-)

Of course, I listened to the all measured speakers.
I think CRC and NBAC have very, very close IMD figures. They share the same motor, their cones are quite hard up to 1 kHz, so, the difference innthr measured IMD can be attributed to the sample-to-sample differences.
No one of these speakers sounds hash, so I can't catch the difference here. But they have certainly a bit different tonality and I much prefer the CRC signature. Cone material does matter undoubtedly.
CAC and NBAC are the same, so the measurements should be the same too.

[HiFiCompass]

Old measurements have been updated with IMD and the voice coil HD distortion data:
Vifa NE180W-04 | HiFiCompass
Wavecor WF182BD03 | HiFiCompass
Morel TSCM634 | HiFiCompass

[HiFiCompass]

In the distant past, 40 years ago, the Japanese company Sony released the APM (Acurate Pistonic Motion) loudspeaker series, using technologies that many considered the technologies of the future. Having measured the tweeter of the Sony APM-33 speakers, let's go back from today's future to the past to see if they were really that cool.

Sony APM-33W - SONY APM-33Wの仕様 ソニー

Sony APM-33 tweeter | HiFiCompass
Sony APM-33 woofer | HiFiCompass

[Bear]

In the distant past, 40 years ago, the Japanese company Sony released the APM (Acurate Pistonic Motion) loudspeaker series, using technologies that many considered the technologies of the future. Having measured the tweeter of the Sony APM-33 speakers, let's go back from today's future to the past to see if they were really that cool.

Sony APM-33W - SONY APM-33Wの仕様 ソニー

Sony APM-33 tweeter | HiFiCompass
Sony APM-33 woofer | HiFiCompass

Interesting, thanks. I'll stick with modern drivers. The tweeter looks like it would be bright, and the lack of sensitivity would elevate the distortion products in any sizable room. The woofer is ... square? That's Chevy Corvair performance (pardon the American car analogy) - "unsafe at any speed".

[Reet]

In the distant past, 40 years ago, the Japanese company Sony released the APM (Acurate Pistonic Motion) loudspeaker series, using technologies that many considered the technologies of the future. Having measured the tweeter of the Sony APM-33 speakers, let's go back from today's future to the past to see if they were really that cool.

Sony APM-33W - SONY APM-33Wの仕様 ソニー

Sony APM-33 tweeter | HiFiCompass
Sony APM-33 woofer | HiFiCompass

Interesting drivers. Not the greatest distortion performance, the unfortunate factor is simply the woofer "cone" resonance and the high distortion that results from it. The woofer has built in BSC, and the tweeter has good enough performance in the 1-2kHz range that a well functioning crossover could be achieved. Thanks for sharing!

The woofer performance could possibly be improved simply by moving the point of contact of the 4 points around, instead of having the nice symmetric layout that they have.

[HiFiCompass]

The review of the 4" SEAS "Excel" W12CY006 (E0091-08) Nextel midwoofer:

Seas Excel 4" W12CY006 (E0091-08) midwoofer review | HiFiCompass

[Bear]

The review of the 4" SEAS "Excel" W12CY006 (E0091-08) Nextel midwoofer:

Seas Excel 4" W12CY006 (E0091-08) midwoofer review | HiFiCompass

Thanks yet again! Given the price point, and that I'd expect a lot of DIYers would look at this for midrange duty, how does it compare to the likes of the 12MU, or even the SB12CAC?

[Reet]

Thanks yet again! Given the price point, and that I'd expect a lot of DIYers would look at this for midrange duty, how does it compare to the likes of the 12MU, or even the SB12CAC?

Those drivers are available at Hificompass, compare for yourself One has to justify the extra cost over competition for sure. I use WF120BD04 at home, wonderful sounding driver but not quite the eye candy that the W12 Nextel is. But looks aside, The WF120 is 1/3 of the price, and I'm not sure I'd be able to tell the difference in a properly designed system.

Low sensitivity is going to limit a lot of use cases, from 600-1800Hz its barely 83dB@2.83V. Given the price I would expect a lot of DIYers won't even have this driver on the radar. One would hope that the frequency response resembles the datasheet with a bit greater degree of accuracy, the measured response is a closer match to the older W12CY003 to be honest.

[Bear]

Those drivers are available at Hificompass, compare for yourself One has to justify the extra cost over competition for sure. I use WF120BD04 at home, wonderful sounding driver but not quite the eye candy that the W12 Nextel is. But looks aside, The WF120 is 1/3 of the price, and I'm not sure I'd be able to tell the difference in a properly designed system.

Low sensitivity is going to limit a lot of use cases, from 600-1800Hz its barely 83dB@2.83V. Given the price I would expect a lot of DIYers won't even have this driver on the radar. One would hope that the frequency response resembles the datasheet with a bit greater degree of accuracy, the measured response is a closer match to the older W12CY003 to be honest.

Yevgeniy has indicated that he considers the 12MU to be one of his favorite midrange drivers despite the measured performance. I'm sure someone else can bring into the discussion the idea that not everything that can be measured counts, and not everything that counts can be measured. Oh, wait, I just provided that.

[Reet]

Yevgeniy has indicated that he considers the 12MU to be one of his favorite midrange drivers despite the measured performance. I'm sure someone else can bring into the discussion the idea that not everything that can be measured counts, and not everything that counts can be measured. Oh, wait, I just provided that.

Interpretation of measured results is often the issue.

12MU has a rather linear breakup free performance until 10kHz which results in good on and off-axis performance in the passband that one would use this driver. Distortion over frequency is linear, not making any wild swings in harmonics over frequency that may stand out, as well the harmonic performance remains very constant over varying amplitude, only 2nd order harmonics are really increasing at high output. All together there is not much to complain about with this driver, so it's not surprising that it would end up on a favourites list, or is there something I'm missing? Does it measure poorly in your eyes?

The new W12 Nextel is an excellent performer, but comparing to the 12MU I would probably go with 12MU. At the very least You get a much more usable sensitivity, slightly more xmax, and a nice shaped underhung neodymium motor that make you feel like your money was well spent Of course, I’d probably be more sensible with my money and go with Vifa NE series, or the Wacecor that I currently have.

[Reet]

I’ve got some Motus UH130PW1 sitting in my shelf that I picked up for CAD$150ea, how do you think they would compare ?

[HiFiCompass]

Thanks yet again! Given the price point, and that I'd expect a lot of DIYers would look at this for midrange duty, how does it compare to the likes of the 12MU, or even the SB12CAC?

I like 12mu a bit more

[HiFiCompass]

The measurements of the SB Acoustics SB17NRX2C35-4 6" midwoofer:

SB Acoustics SB17NRX2C35-4 | HiFiCompass

[HiFiCompass]

The measurements of the SEAS A26RE4 (H1411) 10" woofer:

Seas A26RE4 (H1411) | HiFiCompass

[HiFiCompass]

The measurements of the Seas T29CF002 (E0040-06) "Crecsendo" tweeter:

Seas T29CF002 (E0040-06) "Crecsendo" | HiFiCompass

[HiFiCompass]

The measurements of the Vifa NE123W-08 3" paper cone fullrange:

Vifa NE123W-08 | HiFiCompass

[HiFiCompass]

The measurements of the Satori MW13TX-8 midwoofer:

Satori MW13TX-8 | HiFiCompass

[HiFiCompass]

The measurements of the Visaton AL 200 woofer:
Visaton AL200 | HiFiCompass

[Scottg]

WOW, that looks positively broken in comparison to other (older) measurements of this driver.

I wonder if something happened to change production?

[HiFiCompass]

WOW, that looks positively broken in comparison to other (older) measurements of this driver.

I wonder if something happened to change production?

I'm not familiar with previous measurements

[HiFiCompass]

The measurements of the Eton 11-612/C8/50RP "Orchestra" 10" woofer:

Eton 11-612/C8/50RP | HiFiCompass

[chrisn]

http://www.zaphaudio.com/8test/ FR looks similar, distortion less so.

[Scottg]

-spl is different, upper usable (hard low-pass filter) freq. extension is a bit different, and of course - non-linear is quite different.

T/S param's are also more than a little different.

Just a different inferior driver.

[HiFiCompass]

The measurements of the SEAS CA26RFX (H1305-08) 10" woofer have been added:

SEAS CA26RFX (H1305-08) | HiFiCompass

[HiFiCompass]

The measurements of the ScanSpeak 12W/4524G00 midwwofer and SB Acoustics SB14ST-C000-4 tweeter have been added:

https://hificompass.com/en/speakers/measurements/scan-speak/scanspeak-12w/4524g00

https://hificompass.com/en/speakers/measurements/sbacoustics/sb-acoustics-sb14st-c000-4

[HiFiCompass]

The measurements of the Lavoce 3" fullrange FAN030.71:

https://hificompass.com/en/speakers/measurements/lavoce/lavoce-fan03071

[HiFiCompass]

The review of the new BlieSMa 3" dome midranges - M74A-6, M74B-6, M74P-6 and M74S-6:

https://hificompass.com/en/reviews/bliesma-m74a-6-m74b-6-m74p-6-and-m74s-6

[Scottg]

That silk dome mid. is pretty sweet!

[tktran]

Thanks for your great work Yevgeniy,

The value of the Lavoce 3” full range is fantastic.

As for the Bliesma; can you adjust the horizontal scale so that the measurements can be compared with other drivers, for registered users?

eg. Distortion at 315mm; The x-axis starts at 100Hz; which makes it very difficult to compare to other 3-4” drivers whose x-scale start at 20Hz.

Best regards,
Thanh

[HiFiCompass]

Thanks for your great work Yevgeniy,

The value of the Lavoce 3” full range is fantastic.

As for the Bliesma; can you adjust the horizontal scale so that the measurements can be compared with other drivers, for registered users?

eg. Distortion at 315mm; The x-axis starts at 100Hz; which makes it very difficult to compare to other 3-4” drivers whose x-scale start at 20Hz.

Best regards,
Thanh

Thank you Thanh,

Sorry, but I can't adjust the scale. Since BlieSMa's mids Fs and the operating range is much higher than 100 Hz, I decided not to include the useless 20-100 Hz range in the graphs.

[Bear]

That silk dome mid. is pretty sweet!

The paper dome is the only "weak" member, and the interview seems to indicate that Stanislav knows it. The Beryllium dome, in particular, would challenge some of the Accuton cell mids, which seem to have implementation challenges based upon Jon's ongoing narratives here. It isn't hard to see some high-end designs being built with the Be mids and tweeters from BliesMa, and then some form of prestige lower end.

[augerpro]

The paper is limited to a lower crossover, but otherwise the measurements seem ok. CSD is good for example. But when we're talking about identical drivers other than dome material, I think we can be lead astray by small differences in measured specs. Sometimes we just have to listen to it to know which we prefer. Judging by the subjective review, if I couldn't afford the Be, it's the paper version that might be more my taste. If I could be assured the lower breakup could be dealt with and not intrude on the sound, I'd probably pick it over the Al and silk domes.

[Amplifier dude]

The Bliesma mids should be measured with a 4th order at 500-600 hz done with a very clean DSP crossover. Because it’s hard to know how much distortion is coming from the passive crossover. And 300hz is lower than anyone will crossover this mid at. I have some of the 74B’s on the way and will conduct these measurements

https://www.maverickaudioforum.com/forum/speakers/bliesma-3-dome-midranges

[Juhazi]

My deepest sympathies to our friends in Ukraine, and at HifiCompass.com

https://edition.cnn.com/europe/live-news/ukraine-russia-news-02-23-22/index.html

https://news.un.org/en/

Violating Ukrainian sovereignty
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