CatZ Tweeter Shoot Out to come...

[5th element]

As far as I understand it, from a mathematical point of view, IMD distortion, in multi-tone situations, is directly related to the levels of the individual harmonics in standard single tone tests. So from that point if a device has high 2nd order products, then it will also have high IMD products that are generated from the presence of those second order products.

Now 2nd order distortion is largely considered to be very benign and if the other HD products are very far down, then any IMD products that are generated as a result of the high 2nd order products + another product is also going to be very low in level too.

[Jonasz]

As far as I understand it, from a mathematical point of view, IMD distortion, in multi-tone situations, is directly related to the levels of the individual harmonics in standard single tone tests. So from that point if a device has high 2nd order products, then it will also have high IMD products that are generated from the presence of those second order products.

Now 2nd order distortion is largely considered to be very benign and if the other HD products are very far down, then any IMD products that are generated as a result of the high 2nd order products + another product is also going to be very low in level too.

Thanks Matt, I got it, I think... :?? :B

[JonMarsh]

CatherinZ related, but not tweeter testing- fabricating the first test front panel, to evaluate the Esoteric 140's on a real baffle, along with a design synthesis test.


Just a build up using the standard PE front panel for now (final sets will have a composite front panel using LBL)

Front




Rear relief



(yeah, I should have routed the tweeter hole instead of cutting it free hand, but this is a throw away development panel...)


Front view with driver fit check



I pondered putting the ES140's in closer together, but particularly with this development build MDF panel, I was a bit concerned about the panel strength. With LBL in the mix, I may change that slightly, unless with the measured crossover choice things are OK with vertical dispersion in the crossover region anyway...

I'm trying to do a lot of prep work before the XMAS break - technically, I could rough out a crossover with the data I already have, but finding the time would be an issue- think I'll just have to see if I can find time to assemble this panel and get some measurements in the next two weeks.

[5th element]

Looking good there Jon and it only reinforces how dang big that TL tweeter really is. Diggin' the ES drivers look too!

[Face]

The ES drivers are pretty, but TL's face plates remind me of the Peerless tweeter from the 80's, yuk.

[wkhanna]

........ but TL's face plates remind me of the Peerless tweeter from the 80's, yuk.

I remember those.:gah:

[5th element]

Yeah I think we all hate the way the TL tweeters look. It's a shame, they are built really well, it would be nice if they'd come up with a pleasing aesthetic.

[Hdale85]

Yeah I agree that face plate definitely dates the design lol.

[JonMarsh]

Pretty is as pretty does...

The 9900's came in from Madisound... dig the weekend delivery of stuff!




What you can't get from this picture is how outsized they are- it looks like a zoomed up version of the 9130, sort of like 1.25 scale. Everything is in proportion. But then, they ARE that kind of scale- about 5.12" in diameter, not the typical 4" diameter tweeter.

It's raining cats and dogs today, and occasional raccoons, so no chance of making a new test front baffle, though I have the blank here. Will keep the same mid woofer spacing for the 9900's, but will also test first on a clean baffle without the mid woofers, as I did the other tweeters.

[Steve Manning]

Those look familiar ....... got a pair sitting just 3' to my right as I type

[Jonasz]

Jon, you know you have to make an EU-version with Seas W15 or W18 of these speakers too, right? :P
The Daytons will be at least as expensive as the Seas, SS and Satori stuff once they land on the shores of the old world... :cry:

All kidding aside, the TL tweeters ARE fugly but they do make a round faceplate that I think look a little bit better. Not CatZ sexy, but thats what the 9900s are for!

Pretty is as pretty does...

The 9900's came in from Madisound... dig the weekend delivery of stuff!



What you can't get from this picture is how outsized they are- it looks like a zoomed up version of the 9130, sort of like 1.25 scale. Everything is in proportion. But then, they ARE that kind of scale- about 5.12" in diameter, not the typical 4" diameter tweeter.

It's raining cats and dogs today, and occasional raccoons, so no chance of making a new test front baffle, though I have the blank here. Will keep the same mid woofer spacing for the 9900's, but will also test first on a clean baffle without the mid woofers, as I did the other tweeters.

[5th element]

I think the TL tweeters are a prime example of where a neo magnet would make a load of sense. I'd imagine that would allow them to reduce the motor structures diameter, whilst keeping the chamber properties very similar. This would allow them to use standard diameter face plates and possibly then use an off the shelf face plate and possibly then makes something nice looking -.-

With regards to the EU version of the NatP I think we will have to wait and see just how things turn out. The ES series could measure as well as, or better than, some of the premium Scandinavian counterparts. The attraction of a soft cone driver that doesn't exhibit the usual cone edge surround resonances is quite nice indeed. SEAS nextel, Scanspeaks paper and the Satori all feature this kind of thing and it isn't perfect. The W15 + SS9900 would make for an excellent EU speaker, but if the ES measures as well as we are hoping it will, it might just be worth going with the ES instead.

There are gains to be had from using the large diameter voice coil, a reduction in power compression, a reduction in parameter shift due to changes in electrical damping vs temperature and a reduction in the amount a passive crossovers transfer function changes due to temperature again.

[JonMarsh]

All very good points, Matt, and things I have been thinking about. I've even kicked around finishing a ZA14 version, but the T/S parameters just don't work out the way I like for what I want to do in this 1 cu ft MTM. Of course, I don't know yet that the ES140ti will work out for certain, either, but it models the way I want...

The round plate TL tweeters are hard to come by... in the USA, and Solen has dear shipping prices. But I'm likely going to have to bite that bullet. Imagine a couple of different levels... one with the SB26ADC, one with the N26CR2-A, one with the 9900, and with the N26BER-A, if they ever have it in stock again. :W

Gee, I could bankrupt myself just designing an MTM! And without diamond tweeters! :W

[JonMarsh]

Those look familiar ....... got a pair sitting just 3' to my right as I type

Wish I could listen to them! But at least I've got my own pair to mess with now!

[augerpro]

Great selection of drivers Jon! Can't wait to see what designs come of this.

[Steve Manning]

Wish I could listen to them! But at least I've got my own pair to mess with now!

If you ever make it out this way your more than welcome to stop by for a listen!

[JonMarsh]

Let's not forget the 9130...

This is more or less a "cut and paste" from my earlier measurements on this part, but it should be remembered and have the right focus in the competition for the "budget" version of this system- not to be ignored, that's for certain...




The lower end response would require some changes in the crossover implementation, but may still be doable. It will require a modified electrical roll off, something more like 2nd order at 2 kHz. Probably should build a test case and do sweeps at various power levels.




The well controlled 2nd harmonic is appealing to me, as well as the overall low distortion and the 0.5mm Xmax.



I still tend to think of this as a baby version of the 9900.

[Wayman]

Lol, maybe you could put the 9900 faceplate on it?

Cheers, Wayne

[JonMarsh]

Lol, maybe you could put the 9900 faceplate on it?

Cheers, Wayne

That would certainly be easier than what I did matching it with a waveguide in the Modula MT XE! But I wonder which would work better?

It will be interesting to compare... I'm expecting to have time to route a test baffle for the 9900 and test it this weekend.

[BobEllis]

Meniscus is showing a bunch of TL tweeters in stock, including carbon and Be domes. They aren't vaporware anymore!

[Evil Twin]

Meniscus is showing a bunch of TL tweeters in stock, including carbon and Be domes. They aren't vaporware anymore!

That most interesting! Solen has had limited quantities, but ordering through them incurs a disturbance in the Force and my purchasing agent, because of the way they initially grossly over charge on shipping, then refund. I do not understand all of the complaints about the esthetics, though- they are black, after all...

[Jonasz]

That most interesting! Solen has had limited quantities, but ordering through them incurs a disturbance in the Force and my purchasing agent, because of the way they initially grossly over charge on shipping, then refund. I do not understand all of the complaints about the esthetics, though- they are black, after all...

The round ones look pretty nice! :P

[Face]

They look like 30 year old Peerless tweeters, other than that, they look fine. :P

[Jonasz]

They look like 30 year old Peerless tweeters, other than that, they look fine. :P

That's why you put them behind waveguides...

[JonMarsh]

That's why you put them behind waveguides...

You mean, like this?

[Face]

Very nice!

Find some black or brown allen bolts to support the tweeter and they'd be perfect, IMO.

[Jonasz]

Yeppers Jon, very sexy!

Who built those beauties?

[JonMarsh]

I did... they're still sitting in storage... have an initial design for passive mid to tweeter crossover, planning to implement the rest in a Metric Halo LIO-8/ULN-8 (my LIO-8 has been upgraded to the point that it's really a ULN-8 now).

The Ardent Wavecor project/opportunity came up, and I jumped on the collaboration opportunity, so this one has languished a bit, to say the least!

Yes, those are Seas L26RO4Y drivers, the D1004 version.

I must have ADHD, I suppose, I get side tracked and diverted into other development tasks. These aren't abandoned, and I also have a Mini-DSP I could do the active stuff with, sitting on the shelf, too. I don't know why my girl friend says I buy too much stuff and put it in storage... but then I know it's there when I want to come back to it! Like the organ I bought in 2013, or some of the hard to find guitars. You can't walk in to a local Guitar Center and just pick one up...

[Steve Manning]

That Mini DSP looks like a handy way to do an active crossover for not much money. I've been reading over some of the documentation on their website and it looks pretty slick. Can't wait to see what you think of it once you fire it up.

[---k---]

You know Jon, God told Noah he only needed 2 of each.

[JonMarsh]

Two of each kind of speaker? ;-)

I could live with that...

[wkhanna]

:roflmao:

[JonMarsh]

You're not going to believe this, but one of my colleagues at work and his daughter put together a little Christmas landscape display for me...

a couple of gingerbread houses: a ginger bread dog house for "Einstein", a more "normal" one for "Doc Emmet Brown", (both with their owners name written on the roof) and with a toy DeLorean car sitting between them in the driveway...




I gotta do something about this rep...


:roll:

[JonMarsh]

Oh, and I ordered a couple more tweeters to test, you know, those funny looking ones from Serbia...

My old boss from Croatia isn't going to like that...

[Jonasz]

oh, and i ordered a couple more tweeters to test, you know, those funny looking ones from serbia...

My old boss from croatia isn't going to like that...

140-15d? :P

[JonMarsh]

No, the 70-10D, with amorphous cores; something to possibly go with the ZA14's. Another flipping MTM, just what the world needs- along with another 7" two way!

[5th element]

It is going to be very interesting to see how the little RAAL measures.

[Jonasz]

Jon, r-carpenter over at PE may have a pair of the Aviawave ribbons if you want to try out something even more exotic. Handmade in Russia. Fits a standard 105mm tweeter rebate. Sounds pretty darn good too!
A pair of every kind of driver wasn't it? :P

Measurements and pics borrowed from mzisserson

[Face]

I have a pair of those as well...

[Jonasz]

How do you like them?

[5th element]

Well they look like the measure well and they also have a nice wave-guide profile built into the face plate...look like a winner to me, at least as far as ribbons go. How much do they normally set you back? They look like they'd do a steep 2kHz xover, which makes them infinitely more useful than a handful of other ribbons that would fit into a 104mm cut out.

[Face]

I crossed them lr4 at 3.5k, but they could go a little lower. They sound very nice to me. Can't make a direct comparison to RAAL as different speakers, crossovers, etc...but each has it's own sound.

[Face]

As for price, @ $300 a pair.

[JonMarsh]

That sounds like a good price for what you're getting- looking at the HD3 curve, I'd say not lower than 3 kHz, but that's quite reasonable. Is there a US distributor? Where do you get them?

[5th element]

HD3 of those is still 55dB down at 2kHz. Whack a 4th order acoustic on them and it should counter the rise and allow them to play comfortably. I suppose it depends on what the drive level for those measurements was.