Transducer Labs N26C Ceramic tweeter in waveguide measurements

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  • dlneubec
    Super Senior Member
    • Jan 2006
    • 1454

    Transducer Labs N26C Ceramic tweeter in waveguide measurements

    Hi all.

    I was finally able to get some preliminary measurements of this tweeter on a flat baffle (sort of infinite baffle) and with some custom waveguides. The Transducer labs tweeter is a ceramic dome tweeter. You can read about it here:
    TDL N26C

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    First let me tell you how these were measured. I used Jeff Bagby's method of laying them on the floor and measuring with the mic directly above. In this case, the tweeter sits down in some wood that has a cutout in it. A piece of cardboard was placed over the wood to act as a baffle. A cutout was made in the cardboard to simulate a flush mount. The mic was set above the tweeter and at a distance of 27.25" or 69cm from the front plate of the tweeter. The gated window was 2.7ms to block out the main first reflections. The waveguides were simply set on top of the tweeter, held by their weight alone. Then some insulation was placed around the edges of the waveguides. Below are some photos so you can better envision the setup, which is sort of cobbled together.

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    I got my N26C's from Meniscus and they include a small metal mesh grill that can be attached over the ceramic dome to protect it. Below shows the flat baffle measurements with and without the mesh grill in place. The mesh grill appears to boost the response slightly on the upper end. All waveguide measurements were taken without the mesh grill as the waveguide throats are too small for them to fit.

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    The waveguides measured were prototypes created by DanP over at PE Tech talk. Dan created 3 custom waveguides that are a range of sizes and depths. The smallest one is 140mm dia.x33mm deep. The other two increased in size to 152mm and 165mm dia. with depths of 36mm and 39mm respectively. All the throat openings are 36mm. The face plate opening on the N26C is 34.5mm, according to the guys at Transducer Labs. I also tested the N26C in the MCM waveguide, which I understand is NLA.

    These waveguides are made using an additive manufacturing process that sinters (lightly melts with a laser) successive 0.15mm layers of nylon/glass powder. Therefore, the possible geometries are not limited by traditional CNC or molding restrictions. I have some rectangular ones on the way to test with the B&G neo3.

    I guess they can be painted, as long as they are sealed first; otheriwse they soak up the paint. They actually look pretty cool as they are, can be sanded and will hold screws like a dense wood, according to Dan. Of course, they are generally intended to be used as patterns to have waveguides either turned, created with a cnc or with a tool like the radarcarve. The latter is how the ones that Pete S. used in his Aurora 2ways were done, which were also patterned from waveguides that DanP fashioned for him to test.

    In the next post I will show the waveguide results.
    Last edited by theSven; 15 May 2023, 18:34 Monday. Reason: Update image location
    Dan N.
  • dlneubec
    Super Senior Member
    • Jan 2006
    • 1454

    #2
    Interestingly, there was very little difference on the bottom end of the waveguides. They were all essentially the same. They differ primarily in the upper end, on axis smoothness.

    So far, the 140mm is the only one I have measured off axis since it’s on axis response looked the best, it allow the closest CTC and the larger ones didn't seem to help extend or boost the low end significantly more.

    I've attached a series of jpegs that show the measurements. There is one on axis of each WG, including one for the MCM waveguide that is NLA (just for reference), one of all 4 together, one of the 140cm at approximately 0-10-20-30-40 off axis. I'm getting 8-9db of boost, with a little on axis irregularity, but not too bad considering the rather rough measurement technique. The irregularities disappear completely by 20º and it looks great all the way out to 50º. I did one more at 50º (not shown) and the trend continued, but I forgot to take a screen shot with it included and didn't save the measurement. There is also one that shows the non-WG response of the N26C with the protective grill included with each of the waveguide measurements for reference.

    I'm very pleased with the performance at this point, especially considering the diminutive size of the 140mm.

    140mm

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    152mm

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    165mm

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    140mm+152mm+165mm+mcm

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    140mm @ approximately 0-10-20-30-40º off axis

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    Last edited by theSven; 15 May 2023, 18:35 Monday. Reason: Update image location
    Dan N.

    Comment

    • 5th element
      Supreme Being Moderator
      • Sep 2009
      • 1671

      #3
      That does measure nicely and no bunching up in the top octave either.
      What you screamin' for, every five minutes there's a bomb or something. I'm leavin' Bzzzzzzz!
      5th Element, otherwise known as Matt.
      Now with website. www.5een.co.uk Still under construction.

      Comment

      • JonMarsh
        Mad Max Moderator
        • Aug 2000
        • 15284

        #4
        Very interesting, Dan! Maybe I'll be able to find time next weekend to replicate these tests with the Jantzen waveguide and my own N26c, and do some quasi IB tests, also. Too many things on the plate this weekend, and also in the middle of re-configuring test computer setups and main music server/test system.
        the AudioWorx
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        Comment

        • dlneubec
          Super Senior Member
          • Jan 2006
          • 1454

          #5
          The performance of the 5.5" (140mm) was a pleasant surprise. That it seemed to do better than the 6" and 6.5" was unexpected as well. These WG's have .15mm steps, so they are not as smooth as plastic ones. I'm not sure what effect that might have, probably not much. At some point I might sand one down smooth to see if the results change.

          It will interesting to see how it does in the Jantzen. If it does better, maybe I can have one made up that follows the Jantzen profile, it there is a way to obtain that.

          I did find I had to remove the inner row of screws, since they fall very close to the edge of the throat and doing a counterbore for them would have risked going through the waveguide.

          In case you didn't see this posted, it is my understanding that the voice coil on the N26C is attached directly to the faceplate, so it can't be removed for WG use.
          Dan N.

          Comment

          • JonMarsh
            Mad Max Moderator
            • Aug 2000
            • 15284

            #6
            Originally posted by dlneubec

            In case you didn't see this posted, it is my understanding that the voice coil on the N26C is attached directly to the faceplate, so it can't be removed for WG use.
            That was my understanding. I'm planning on trying something similar to the 6640 mounting, with a felt washer, as per the one from Madisound, but not cut down like it has to be with the 6640, and attached to the back of the waveguide. I've modified one pair of the waveguides so they are back milled and don't have the slight vertical step (about 1 mm) that the Jantzen has in "stock" format. We'll have to see how that works out. Your results are encouraging to proceed in this direction. There is some "guessing" that the compressed felt ring at the interface lowers reflections and smooths the HF response.

            Scanspeak 6640 on Jantazen Waveguide with Felt interface ring at 0-15-30-45-60

            Last edited by theSven; 15 May 2023, 18:36 Monday. Reason: Update image location
            the AudioWorx
            Natalie P
            M8ta
            Modula Neo DCC
            Modula MT XE
            Modula Xtreme
            Isiris
            Wavecor Ardent

            SMJ
            Minerva Monitor
            Calliope
            Ardent D

            In Development...
            Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
            Obi-Wan
            Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
            Modula PWB
            Calliope CC Supreme
            Natalie P Ultra
            Natalie P Supreme
            Janus BP1 Sub


            Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
            Just ask Mr. Ohm....

            Comment

            • dlneubec
              Super Senior Member
              • Jan 2006
              • 1454

              #7
              Here is a simulation of the 140x33x36 guide with just a 2uf cap, compared to the raw WG response. Crossover point would be in th 1800-1900 range with this. That's a pretty simple XO, I'd say.

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              Last edited by theSven; 15 May 2023, 18:37 Monday. Reason: Update image location
              Dan N.

              Comment

              • sdl2112
                Senior Member
                • Mar 2006
                • 571

                #8
                Originally posted by dlneubec
                I did find I had to remove the inner row of screws, since they fall very close to the edge of the throat and doing a counterbore for them would have risked going through the waveguide..
                That tweeter caught my interest as well. I was thinking it might be possible to remove the screws, use a counter bore bit and replace the screws with a countersunk machine screw...milled down if necessary. Just a thought.

                Comment

                • dlneubec
                  Super Senior Member
                  • Jan 2006
                  • 1454

                  #9
                  The faceplate is only about 1/8" thick, so it doesn't leave a lot of room to machine anything into.
                  Dan N.

                  Comment

                  • sdl2112
                    Senior Member
                    • Mar 2006
                    • 571

                    #10
                    I don't know the screw size but they don't look bigger than a #10 or M6. Both of these have less than a 1/8" countersink. Mcmaster also has flat undercut screws in a US sizes. Here's an example of both in a #10-32 screw.

                    Comment

                    • meb46
                      Senior Member
                      • Jul 2010
                      • 398

                      #11
                      Dan, can you confirm it is possible to remove the mounting plate of the N26C? I am thinking or using this with a customer made round mounting plate which I would have machined, but I need to know if the Cone/Magent assembly can simply unscrew from the rectangular mounting plate??

                      Thanks

                      Comment

                      • meb46
                        Senior Member
                        • Jul 2010
                        • 398

                        #12
                        Sorry... just read your comment..."In case you didn't see this posted, it is my understanding that the voice coil on the N26C is attached directly to the faceplate, so it can't be removed for WG use" question answered...

                        Comment

                        • dlneubec
                          Super Senior Member
                          • Jan 2006
                          • 1454

                          #13
                          The face plate can not be removed as the voice coil is attached to it.
                          Dan N.

                          Comment

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