Driver Evaluations for a new project
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Driver evaluations, for a new project? Must be the right thread... for now!
TangBand 25-1983 Inverted Titanium oxid dome tweeter
Arrived and tested this weekend, on 10" x 20" panel with rounded edges, centered across width, offset to 1/3 of length. Some nice characteristics-- Smooth upper octave response with very well damped upper breakup mode- practialy nonexistent
- Excellent polar response to 30 degrees off axis, and hangs in there better than usual at -40 and -50 - possibly due to convex dome?
- Good value, under $100
- Good distortion characteristics for price, close to -50dB down at 90 dB playback level.
If distortion was 10dB lower, this would be pretty near state of the art behavior- and they wouldn't cost just $90 each, in all likelihood.the AudioWorx
Natalie P
M8ta
Modula Neo DCC
Modula MT XE
Modula Xtreme
Isiris
Wavecor Ardent
SMJ
Minerva Monitor
Calliope
Ardent D
In Development...
Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
Obi-Wan
Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
Modula PWB
Calliope CC Supreme
Natalie P Ultra
Natalie P Supreme
Janus BP1 Sub
Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
Just ask Mr. Ohm....- Bottom
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the AudioWorx
Natalie P
M8ta
Modula Neo DCC
Modula MT XE
Modula Xtreme
Isiris
Wavecor Ardent
SMJ
Minerva Monitor
Calliope
Ardent D
In Development...
Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
Obi-Wan
Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
Modula PWB
Calliope CC Supreme
Natalie P Ultra
Natalie P Supreme
Janus BP1 Sub
Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
Just ask Mr. Ohm....- Bottom
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Motus Audio- not a household word, but perhaps it should be? Doesn't compete on price with Dayton RS stuff, but doesn't do a bad job of competing with some big guys on performance. Underhung voice coil motor, and all the goodness that comes with that an a pressed paper cone with minimal resonance. There's definitely stuff here to work with.
the AudioWorx
Natalie P
M8ta
Modula Neo DCC
Modula MT XE
Modula Xtreme
Isiris
Wavecor Ardent
SMJ
Minerva Monitor
Calliope
Ardent D
In Development...
Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
Obi-Wan
Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
Modula PWB
Calliope CC Supreme
Natalie P Ultra
Natalie P Supreme
Janus BP1 Sub
Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
Just ask Mr. Ohm....- Bottom
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Those TL labs tweeters certainly do represent a nice device to use as a benchmark. Very low 2nd and 3rd order HD there.What you screamin' for, every five minutes there's a bomb or something. I'm leavin' Bzzzzzzz!
5th Element, otherwise known as Matt.
Now with website. www.5een.co.uk Still under construction.- Bottom
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Driver evaluations, for a new project? Must be the right thread... for now!
TangBand 25-1983 Inverted Titanium oxid dome tweeter
Arrived and tested this weekend, on 10" x 20" panel with rounded edges, centered across width, offset to 1/3 of length. Some nice characteristics-- Smooth upper octave response with very well damped upper breakup mode- practialy nonexistent
- Excellent polar response to 30 degrees off axis, and hangs in there better than usual at -40 and -50 - possibly due to convex dome?
- Good value, under $100
- Good distortion characteristics for price, close to -50dB down at 90 dB playback level.
If distortion was 10dB lower, this would be pretty near state of the art behavior- and they wouldn't cost just $90 each, in all likelihood.
What is this tweeter? I don't think I've seen it before.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk- Bottom
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Updated the post to identify the tweeter- maybe I can claim heat exhaustion for that oversight...
Some early samples were messed up, maybe a messed up suspension, much higher than normal Fs, not the right frequency response. These look pretty good. I was hoping for a little lower HD, but I'm going to re-run a few other oldie's and Goldies, and we can do a realistic appraisal- Seas DXT, Dayton RS28a-4.
OTOH, I also plan to order a pair of Transducer Labs N26 N28BERA today. Different end of the spectrum, I hope...the AudioWorx
Natalie P
M8ta
Modula Neo DCC
Modula MT XE
Modula Xtreme
Isiris
Wavecor Ardent
SMJ
Minerva Monitor
Calliope
Ardent D
In Development...
Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
Obi-Wan
Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
Modula PWB
Calliope CC Supreme
Natalie P Ultra
Natalie P Supreme
Janus BP1 Sub
Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
Just ask Mr. Ohm....- Bottom
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Cripes Jon, you are on serious driver procurement run (That's my jealousy speaking) Just a side question... how many drivers would you actually have in your stock pile? You might be close to being able to open your own online speaker store to feed the DIY masses... Hancock Express, MadiJon?- Bottom
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Well, I don't stock in depth... So it's just usually one pair. Would be hard to run a business that way. :W
BTW, the Transducer Lab N26BRG came in yesterday- very nice build quality, a significant step up from the N26A ceramics in the rectangular form factor, a more elaborate magnet structure and rear enclosure plate. At about $270 each, they may represent good value; the claimed sensitivity is quite high, at about 94-95 dB. If these test well, I'll probably order another set right away just to have as backups- if they mate well with the Motus drivers, then there's an opportunity for a midrange price system that might be pretty nice. I think I can get them to dance in an MTM with the 6-1/4" Motus fairly easily. They go out to almost 5 kHz, according to the data sheet. Got baffles prepared, need to do some testing...the AudioWorx
Natalie P
M8ta
Modula Neo DCC
Modula MT XE
Modula Xtreme
Isiris
Wavecor Ardent
SMJ
Minerva Monitor
Calliope
Ardent D
In Development...
Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
Obi-Wan
Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
Modula PWB
Calliope CC Supreme
Natalie P Ultra
Natalie P Supreme
Janus BP1 Sub
Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
Just ask Mr. Ohm....- Bottom
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Well, I don't stock in depth... So it's just usually one pair. Would be hard to run a business that way. :W
BTW, the Transducer Lab N26BRG came in yesterday- very nice build quality, a significant step up from the N26A ceramics in the rectangular form factor, a more elaborate magnet structure and rear enclosure plate. At about $270 each, they may represent good value; the claimed sensitivity is quite high, at about 94-95 dB. If these test well, I'll probably order another set right away just to have as backups- if they mate well with the Motus drivers, then there's an opportunity for a midrange price system that might be pretty nice. I think I can get them to dance in an MTM with the 6-1/4" Motus fairly easily. They go out to almost 5 kHz, according to the data sheet. Got baffles prepared, need to do some testing...- Bottom
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Actually, it's the Dark Lord working on that one- I'm just a consultant. :W The motors on the Motus are pretty fine, though... and the the cones very extended and smooth in response- I'd say expect to see some data before the week is out.the AudioWorx
Natalie P
M8ta
Modula Neo DCC
Modula MT XE
Modula Xtreme
Isiris
Wavecor Ardent
SMJ
Minerva Monitor
Calliope
Ardent D
In Development...
Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
Obi-Wan
Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
Modula PWB
Calliope CC Supreme
Natalie P Ultra
Natalie P Supreme
Janus BP1 Sub
Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
Just ask Mr. Ohm....- Bottom
Comment
-
the AudioWorx
Natalie P
M8ta
Modula Neo DCC
Modula MT XE
Modula Xtreme
Isiris
Wavecor Ardent
SMJ
Minerva Monitor
Calliope
Ardent D
In Development...
Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
Obi-Wan
Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
Modula PWB
Calliope CC Supreme
Natalie P Ultra
Natalie P Supreme
Janus BP1 Sub
Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
Just ask Mr. Ohm....- Bottom
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Once again this thread title fits well to current activities... after an extended period coping with corporate issues at Palpatine Industries, and dealing with matters clearly flowing from the Dark Side, it is time again to ponder the advances in the state of driver art, and what concepts may now be practical to realize... some may be of wide interest, while others may raise eyebrows and blood pressure regarding their feasibility and range of application.
So be it.
There is also some interesting contract work, as well as past commitments to honor.... if all goes as I have foreseen, this will be an interesting if challenging year.
DFAL
Dark Force Acoustic Labs
A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries- Bottom
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and so it begins....
.....opps, wrong movie....ops:DFAL
Dark Force Acoustic Labs
A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries
Supreme Director of Operations, EVIL TWIN
"A Royal Guardsman never seeks special privileges, ever. His entire goal in life is to serve our Dark Master, ET, and the New Order he created."- Bottom
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One of the interesting things under further investigation is to attempt to tie together various clues from Accuton and others... such as just what their "filtered" distortion measurements mean, and how this likely relates to the work of Reiner Feile and his popular (in Europe) mini monitor design using the rather ancient Seas TAF27.
Some relatively new drivers are curiously interesting, but in spite of new diaphragm materials such as corundum, still suffer fairly high Q break up modes, and these generally come with significant resonance amplification of harmonic distortion products and accompanying in increases in intermodulation distortion.
Some early experiments I'm conducting under contract show interesting potential... in this case some quick tests (with more planned) for the Peerless DA25TX00-08.
This first plot is of the DA25TX00 in an experimental waveguide....
And the input impedance with a basic LCR conjugate network to partially compensate the complex impedance characteristic at resonance.
Now here is the modeled response with a simple crossover network primarily consisting of a single series capacitor, plus the LPAD attenuation network with elliptic filters to suppress the high frequency break up mode. For clarity, a target 3rd order response is overlaid.
And for further reference, a plot of the input impedance to the driver and "crossover" with LPAD and ultrasonic filters.
These crossover simulations (which include component parasitic characteristics) are certainly promising, and a more complete hardware test is now planned.DFAL
Dark Force Acoustic Labs
A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries- Bottom
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More measurements on the DA25TX00-08
The appearance of the DA25TX00-08 may be unusual to many eyes, perhaps even off-putting. The rear assemblage for connection entry and "heat sinking" is a curious design feature- it could not have been included without a reason, but it's implementation and functioning is largely a question mark.
On the other hand, the behavior of the dome has both pluses and minuses...
Clearly, the shape of the dome and perhaps the simple flat front plate contribute to a surprisingly good level of off axis response...
But this may also contribute to the moderately high Q breakup mode.
Still, a conventional distortion plot shows promising HD3 behavior, with relatively little resonance amplification of distortion products.
DFAL
Dark Force Acoustic Labs
A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries- Bottom
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Did you notice power rating 100W - extreme for a hifi tweeter and obviousy all that energy won't transform to sound pressure...My DIY speaker history: -74 Philips 3-way, -82 Hifi 85B, -07 Zaph L18, -08 Hifitalo AW-7, CSS125FR, -09 MarkK ER18DXT, -13 PPSL470Dayton, -13 AINOgradient, -18 Avalanche AS-1 dsp, -18 MR183w- Bottom
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From my perspective, an intriguing point is how the shape of the dome seems to promote a very subtle and consistent tapering of the upper two octaves of response, without the drop in SPL with a marked corner in the response at some point... this is quite different from most HF transducers I measure, even those with Beryllium domes.
The behavior of this far more expensive TW29BN is much more typical...
The same measuring setup and baffle, same test conditions with 10 degree steps.
One would hardly believe there is a nearly 10X difference in price.DFAL
Dark Force Acoustic Labs
A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries- Bottom
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Yes, but what about the distortion and waterfall plot? In fact TW29BN is the number one tweeter on my list.- Bottom
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Around 10kHz wavelength is so short, that very small details become important, eg. membrane profile, surround, frame cutout depth & edge profile, grille etc. BlieSMA has done it right too.My DIY speaker history: -74 Philips 3-way, -82 Hifi 85B, -07 Zaph L18, -08 Hifitalo AW-7, CSS125FR, -09 MarkK ER18DXT, -13 PPSL470Dayton, -13 AINOgradient, -18 Avalanche AS-1 dsp, -18 MR183w- Bottom
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I have a recent sample of the TW29BN, for which I can offer this data. Perhaps it will whet your interest further...
Polar response curves at 10 degree increments:
Distortion Sweep with 2.83VRMS
Waterfall plot
The dome profile appears to result in a relatively low Q breakup mode that is well damped compared with many other Beryllium dome tweeters, comparable to the SS 6640.
Like Scanspeak, the 2nd order distortion appears to be substantially higher than 3rd at this output level.DFAL
Dark Force Acoustic Labs
A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries- Bottom
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Thank you very much. 2nd harmonic distortion is indeed a bit higher than I would like but above all, your waterfall plot is considerably worse than the one from Troels. I wonder...- Bottom
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Unless the setup and software tools are the same, I would be reluctant to compare waterfall plots across different systems. This was done using Fuzzmeasure 4.0, latest updates, with an ACCO Pacific instrumentation microphone and preamp, but I have never attempted to cross correlate this specific measurement and do not regularly use it myself.DFAL
Dark Force Acoustic Labs
A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries- Bottom
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Very interesting. It would be great to see the same designer measure both beryllium and soft dome versions -being TW29BN vs. TW29DN respectively.
I'd like to know how much better the beryllium dome is - considering the price difference.- Bottom
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TW29DN also tested....
Tw29dn...
Polar update, 10 degree increments
Distortion on axis.
Most notable issue with the TW29DN is a broad hump in the response centered at about 14 kHz. This "helps" the off axis extension at 30 degrees, keeping it fairly solid to the 15 kHz area.
These response curves, like the TW29BN, are measured on a 12" by 12" panel with a 3/4" round over at the edges. The response is not as flat on this baffle for either of these tweeters as for some others, even though additional felt diffraction control was employed to reduce response irregularities. .DFAL
Dark Force Acoustic Labs
A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries- Bottom
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At last a comparative between the most wanted tweeters on my list measured by the same tester! It remains to be seen the measures from HiFiCompass but I'm not expecting any surprises as both seem more or less the same for the Beryllium version.
I must say it looks like the 3rd HD is even lower for the TW29DN which is most unexpected. That bump you mention however looks about 2dB higher for the TW29DN which must contribute for higher power response and worries me a bit although I think I can't hear anything above 15KHz or so.
If we consider the (substantial) difference in price between these two models I find it hard to justify to myself the option for the most expensive...
I know there's more than meets the eye besides measures but still... :roll:
What is your opinion oh Dark Lord?
EDIT: HiFiCompass has now published both measures as well.Last edited by cochinada; 16 April 2019, 10:30 Tuesday.- Bottom
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I believe there is a popular aphorism about opinions and anatomical features that nearly all living beings have...
I agree there is a clear value proposition for the DW29DN, all popular "opinions" about what dome materials are "modern and contemporary" versus "old school".
One may readily argue that the hump in the upper range axial response of the TW29DN is relatively minor, inaudible to many, easily equalized away if desired, and actually a very small contribution to the averaged forward power response.
One may also argue that though the TW239BN has a very small resonance amplification of distortion products between 7 and 10 kHz, it is there... though hardly at a level to offend most. And one may well note that the 2nd harmonic above 10kHz appears to be at a lower level than the DN. Is that significant?
I would suggest making the choice which produces the most mental satisfaction for you, weighing all factors significant to you, and not worry about the possible sonic differences.DFAL
Dark Force Acoustic Labs
A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries- Bottom
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DFAL
Dark Force Acoustic Labs
A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries- Bottom
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You mean that the impedance looks nice and smooth where one would expect a cone edge induced ripple ?
Those Anarchy woofers look cool, but they are not available in Europe as far as I can find... it is possible to get them mailed from US of course, but that tends to make the price way less attractive..... so I kinda silently hope they are not as good as they seem :W- Bottom
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I would simply say 'no anomalies', but yeah - that's awfully clean. Zaphs measurements of the original Anarchy do show a glitch around the 4k breakup http://zaphaudio.com/temp/EX-Anarchy-FR.gif - it'll be interesting to see whether this reflects an actual difference in behavior or whether it's just different measurement conditions.- Bottom
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This is a photograph of the test sample dropped into a cabinet with a driver rebate for a 6" driver.
I trust there are no further questions about the identifying properties, and none necessary.DFAL
Dark Force Acoustic Labs
A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries- Bottom
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Interesting... most interesting.
Some basic measurements fore the 554 have been completed, and additional data is now available...
Polar behavior shows good power response potential as would be expected, given the size of the cone. It also reveals the breakup mode at 9kHz, about the same as an Accuton C79.
Distortion performance is good if not remarkable; HD3 levels hardly budget when doubling the drive level to 5.6VRMS, which is about 8W for the driver impedance. This is fairly loud in room, given the apparent sensitivity of about 87 dB/2.83VRMS.
The low CMS and low VAS are apparent in the relatively small increase in Fb over Fs.
Testing the 558 should be interesting, once time is available- it might be rather interesting in a small MTM, or as an MTM midrange/treble configuration. The relative flatness of response from 200Hz to 2500Hz mounted in a small enclosure is somewhat intriguing, and certainly easy to work with.DFAL
Dark Force Acoustic Labs
A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries- Bottom
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Thank you ET as always for posting such useful information. What amazes me is how you manage to do such measurements, especially if you are "in transit". I can only assume your Tie fighter has the requisite measurement setup and acoustic damping to enable clean measurements. the dark side is very powerful. Tie fighter piloting, speaker measuring and no doubt dinner curry ordering all done with a thought.- Bottom
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Thank you ET as always for posting such useful information. What amazes me is how you manage to do such measurements, especially if you are "in transit". I can only assume your Tie fighter has the requisite measurement setup and acoustic damping to enable clean measurements. the dark side is very powerful. Tie fighter piloting, speaker measuring and no doubt dinner curry ordering all done with a thought.
As I have mentioned to Steve Manning, it is akin to working on construction projects on a submarine- something Mr. Manning has direct knowledge of from an earlier phase of his life.DFAL
Dark Force Acoustic Labs
A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries- Bottom
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Interesting... most interesting.
This was the 554 tested now, I do have 708 and 704 on hand.
There is another concept, requiring the 558, also. It might be wise to ensure a small supply soon... as I only have two on hand.DFAL
Dark Force Acoustic Labs
A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries- Bottom
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I know, I’m selfishly trying to avoid dual or triple Accuton AS168’s in one of your designs. No offense, but my wife’s choke hold is almost as strong as your’s, and she is also very frugal.- Bottom
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I understand the nature of your dilemma, and I have met a Russian woman whom you might call "frugal" but she deems herself "econom", but as she is not a wife, (yet) I operate with relative impunity.
However, I should once again emphasize that this is a design study, which means quite literally that nothing is cast in concrete, and that several solutions are likely to be developed, different in cost structure and performance targets.
And this thread is just a continuing effort documenting driver evaluations.
Items yet to be concluded in this thread are evaluations of both BlieSMa T34 tweeters, the Anarchy 708 and 558, and the PuriFi PTT6.5W04-01A (8 should be shipped next week or shortly thereafter).
The PuriFi woofers are candidates for a mid priced version of the Ardent D, (for Duelund) as well as for the long rumored NatalieP Ultra. Cabinet materials for the latter are on hand and some fabrication steps have been completed.
Work is expected to continue on the Ardent cabinet pieces this coming weekend, including the detail crosscut and facet bevel work on the front panels. Woofer test system cabinets (woofer's plus PR) are about half way through construction for three (AS168, Anarchy 708, PTT6.5W04-01A) to verify the performance of modeled configurations.
Events are unfolding exactly as I have foreseen, if not as quickly as I would desire...DFAL
Dark Force Acoustic Labs
A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries- Bottom
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Having 'the force' to use must be how you can manage with that multi leveled multi project todo list. Us earthers (oh I think that term is from another SciFi film I'm watching currently) can only observe with envy and try to do one project at a time or maybe two if stretching
It is great and much appreciated as learning to be gained here are also many.- Bottom
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