With Power Comes Respect (Not Pretty)

[Bing Fung]

No Probs Andrew, Kyle sent me a email with the size.

With the rubber gasket in place: Total diameter is 12-1/2”, cutout is 11-1/4” and the depth from the bottom of the mounting flange to the bottom of the motor is 7-1/2”.

Its the same size as the Brahma :M

So any ideas on how to enlarge the recess hole by .25 an inch and the cut out hole by .25 inch? With out hacking the crap out of the box?

Here's the task...





It looks like the blind nuts may get in the way... :scratchhead:

[Bing Fung]

Maybe I shouldn't sweat it and should just drop kick that puppy (1203) in there? :hb

[Bing Fung]

Alrighty then, I just pulled the trigger on the Blueprint 1203. I'm not sure how it's going to fit or how it's going to sound... :scratchhead:






I was thinking that the rubber gasket probably adds the 0.25 inch to the flange diameter. I could remove that and the hard part is taken care of (?). The inside hole I could hack away at.

[ThomasW]

The rubber gasket just pops off. I find them a PIA to work with, and their only function is cosmetic. I pull them off and throw them away.

[Bing Fung]

Thanks Thomas :T

Ve A've vays to meke it verk :W

[Bing Fung]

Here is the Blueprint in Unibox, in my enclosure. Thoughts? :unsure:



Looks like I need a Kilowatt'er to make it flat :P

[Andrew Pratt]

That's not too bad really esp. since you've got the BFD to make it flat in your room anyway.

Thomas is right about the rubber outer sheath...it just pops right off so you'll likely be just fine with it off. Worst case senerio is that it doesn't fit at all in which case I'd say build a new sealed box for the 1203 and buy one of thomas's extra shiva's or the AV12 and sell it off cheap.

[ThomasW]

Bing,

Yeap looks fine.

You can now take advantage of the free tech support, provided to users of HT-Guide's only officially approved box modeling software. :wink:

All your BFD settings will need to be redone. I do suggest creating a 'flat' response and storing it as filter #5. Then create a 'house' curve' store it as filter setting #4.

The peace of mind you 1203 purchase buys is that they are virtually impossible to kill. Your Bryston will probably overheat long before you can damage the 1203.

So party down dude .......... arty:

[Andrew Pratt]

The peace of mind you 1203 purchase buys is that they are virtually impossible to kill.

Notice he said virtually...not impossible

[ThomasW]

One of the newer HT Guide members dumped the full output of a strapped Behringer EP 2500 into a BP1503. Doing that tore the VC leads from the push-on terminals. He did this twice. After soldering the leads back on, the driver is still operational.

To date, no one I know has been successful in killing a BP driver by overpowering the VC.

[David Meek]

Doing that tore the VC leads from the push-on terminals. He did this twice. After soldering the leads back on, the driver is still operational.

To quote Keanu: whoa! :B

[Andrew Pratt]

Yup that was a funny thread to watch

[Kevin P]

One of the newer HT Guide members dumped the full output of a strapped Behringer EP 2500 into a BP1503. Doing that tore the VC leads from the push-on terminals. He did this twice. After soldering the leads back on, the driver is still operational.

After the 2nd time, I would have soldered extension leads on to give them that extra slack.

Congrats on the to-be-new driver Bing-o. You'll probably cause structural damage to your house before you wreck that driver. Party on!

[ThomasW]

After the 2nd time, I would have soldered extension leads on to give them that extra slack

Tensil leads are a woven wire braid. So they tend to quickly 'wick' any solder. As a result there would be wad of solder at the junction of any splice. Not really a good thing......

[Bing Fung]

Thanks for all the help and comments everyone :T

I'm looking forward to this "Upgrade" if you will :twisted:

I'll update this thread as the developments progress... This has actually turned into a "Mission Possible" type of thread :lol:


So if it's going to be next to impossible to kill the sub by overpowering, what about underpowering, or killing it with that clipping = DC senario Kevin was talking about?

I was thinking I should add one of those 1000 watt Plate amps to the back as that would take up some volume in the box :P and power the driver like it looks like it wants to be powered. I'm not sure how good the EQ is on those (Parts Express or Adire ADA) however and will use the Bryston for the time being for the trials.

[Andrew Pratt]

Bing YGM

[Bing Fung]

Andrew, YGMB :P

[Kevin P]

So if it's going to be next to impossible to kill the sub by overpowering, what about underpowering, or killing it with that clipping = DC senario Kevin was talking about?

Did we ever determine the actual cause of death? Was it determined to be caused by over-excursion or bottoming (too much power or driver unloading), or clipping/DC frying the coil? Can you see the coil itself? Does it look like it's fried, warped, or does it look ok? Maybe it's time to perform a driver autopsy.

What frequency is the port/enclosure tuned to? Just wondering about unloading as a possible cause.

That Blueprint driver looks to be nearly indestructible. I think your amp would shut down, or at least show a clipping indicator, before you'd fry that thing.

[David R.]

Did we ever determine the actual cause of death? Was it determined to be caused by over-excursion or bottoming (too much power or driver unloading), .

Kevin, look at the very first picture. The voice coil is actually imprinted into the aluminum cone of the sub.. Its over excursion.

[Bing Fung]

Kevin, I think my port is tuned to 21 Hz....

I would guess the VC tore away from the spider (over excursion?) Once free from the spider, it pushed out on the cone as far as it would extend impacting the back of the aluminum dust cap, creating the dent, as it drove the VC into the back of the dust cap. Basically ripped and torn apart :P

I may take the driver apart yet. I could cut out the aluminum cone and hang it on the wall as a plaque of acheivement :lol:

[Prozakk]

A Dayton Titanic MKIII 15" sub in a sealed enclosure would stop your woes.

[Kevin P]

Kevin, look at the very first picture. The voice coil is actually imprinted into the aluminum cone of the sub.. Its over excursion.

I see that, but I was wondering if the coil overheated prior to detaching from the spider (heat damage + mechanical force), or if it was simply mechanical force that blew everything apart. If the driver bottomed out prior to flying apart, that could have damaged things and led to the self destruction.

Over-excursion can have more than one root cause. Too much power, DC to the coil due to clipping, unloading, or maybe the spider and/or coil simply let go due to faulty glue.

[David R.]

Kevin, it wasnt overheating.. I have no doubts that the thermal power rating given by the manufacture is accurate, and that this sub can handle 1kw bursts (AKA Music) in the right (sealed) enclosure. What oftain determines the sub systems ultimate power rating is its excursion limit. Adire goes into great detail about this subject with there shivas and tempests (Shiva's have a rms of 650w's but in there recommended enclosures are limited to approx 300w's).

you are right that faulty glue on the spider could cause this damage.. But seeing as a) he has used this sub for some time now (at least a year i assume?) and b)modeling programs show this driver & enclosure to have a excursion limit around 350w's. Im fairly confident its the 600+ watts of power he was feeding it .

Of course taking the sub apart and looking at the VC's would further explain the cause(s).. But the VC could of been burnt after the spider/cone damage sense it would of lost its suspension, and the VC was no longer centered.

Also, alot of people think clipping creates DC, This is not true. It only appears this way on a o-scope.

Richard Clark once told me this, and i always remember it when looking at a blown speaker.. 5 things cause a speaker to blow:
1) Exceeding its Thermal power limits
2) Exceeding the systems Excursion power limits
3) Manufacture defect
4) Physical damage (IE droping it)
5) Poor design

[Bing Fung]

A Dayton Titanic MKIII 15" sub in a sealed enclosure would stop your woes.

Think Tulmult :W

David, you're right. I have been running my sub for around 3 years now, so I don't think it was faulty, fatiuged maybe :B

So, I got the monster in today. This thing is a sight to be hold, totaly serious :E When the UPS guy delivered it he said this has got to be one of the most dense, weight per size package he's delivered in a long time :lol:

I told him it was one speaker driver... To which he said how many more of those you going to need? Wait until I get him to deliver a Tulmult :B





The BP came packaged in a cardboard box with an internal wooden frame, very well packaged indeed. I pulled out my DeWalt to undo the packaging.




"Monster"





It dwarfs the old Kappa Perfect

[Bing Fung]

DOH! It doesn't fit, even with the rubber surround removed. The holes have a slightly bigger bolt circle as well. So I'm going to screw in a piece of wood into the centre to block up the hole so I can re-route a bigger hole. It's out by about 1/8 inch, but I may as well cut the hole bigger to include fitting the rubber gasket too.

I hope this works.....

[Andrew Pratt]

Good luck Bing :T

[Kevin P]

Wow, that's a serious driver. A MAN'S driver! :-y No wimps need apply. You said it weighs 50 pounds? That's what the amp that drives my SVS weighs... 8O

Maybe I should try to blow out my SVS so I have an excuse to drop one of those bad boys in... poor man's SVS Ultra?

[Andrew Pratt]

Kevin it'd trouce the Ultra driver :yesnod:

[Kevin P]

Kevin it'd trouce the Ultra driver :yesnod:

It would probably blow apart the cylinder too... that would be fun to watch! :lol:

BTW, Bing, how sturdy is your sub box? You might find it's the next casualty next time you crank up that Seal disc.

[Andrew Pratt]

I doubt that Kevin...cylinders have tremendous structural integraty and the SVS ones are very well built....port noise would be a bigger issue I'd think

[ThomasW]

The good news is that people will stop kicking sand in your face and calling you a wimp for have such a small sub .....:wink:

In addition your UPS guy will have gotten in shape when you start ordering the drivers for that line array of high excursion 18"s .... :E

[Kevin P]

I doubt that Kevin...cylinders have tremendous structural integraty and the SVS ones are very well built....port noise would be a bigger issue I'd think

I remember reading once that when the SVS guys were designing the Ultras they had to add bracing because the Ultra driver was blowing the endcaps off the cylinder.

[ThomasW]

FIY, the motor assembly in the 1203 is the same as that used in the 1503 and the 1804. The only differences between the 1203, the 1503, and the 1804 are the frame and cone sizes.

It's too bad the 1804's are no longer available. That was a REAL man's driver.....

At first glance a IB sub containing 4-1804's doesn't look all that impresssive.

Image not available

But somehow having a single driver sitting beside a CRT projector puts things in perspective!

Image not available

[Andrew Pratt]

Yup i'm kicking myself now as I had a chance last year to get an 1804 cheap but passed on it...oh well my tumult will have to do for now

[Bing Fung]

It would probably blow apart the cylinder too... that would be fun to watch! :lol:

BTW, Bing, how sturdy is your sub box? You might find it's the next casualty next time you crank up that Seal disc.

It's purdy darn sturdy I think :W 1" MDF Construction with intenal bracing channel cut (tongue & groove) construction, Dato and rabbit ends, all glued and cross screwed together. Front baffle is 2" double laminated 1" MDF. It woul dput up a good fight to Gordo "Wrecking Crew" Moore weilding his sledge. :yesnod:

I don't think this is going to blow apart anytime soon, but ya never know :twisted:

I could see how those end caps on a SVS could be blown off. There really isn't much other than glue and the thin tube material that is pinned to the MDF cap. With a wicked motor/driver the Sono sub in effect becomes a Huge Potato Gun :rofl:

The good news is that people will stop kicking sand in your face and calling you a wimp for have such a small sub .....

In addition your UPS guy will have gotten in shape when you start ordering the drivers for that line array of high excursion 18"s ....

Yeah, no more wimpy sub for this guy, actually no sub for this guy for the time being.. :x

Line Array of 18"? How did you eben know I was thinking Line Array? :E :W

Nice IB :E Those drivers don't even remotely look puny :T They are huge!

Does the tight bass response with a 15-18" decrease, thuse decreasing "Musicality"? Or is that just a wives tale?


I dont know, I'm starting to gravatate towards just building a new enclosure for the 1203.....

[Andrew Pratt]

Does the tight bass response with a 15-18" decrease, thuse decreasing "Musicality"? Or is that just a wives tale?

Bing which is faster Trev's heavy 'vette or the ultra light civic parked beside it? Point being you can't make generalizations about bass response b/c it all depends on the motor strenght...Trev's 'vette should walk all over a stock civic with his 300+ horsepower. In reality musicality comes down to the room, sub placement in the room, sub alignement (SBB4, EBS, Sealed etc), power and driver used with the first few being as or more important the the rest.

[Bing Fung]

No, but a well tuned smaller car could be faster in various disciplines such as slalom, tight switch backs, Road Rally, Auto crossing, where transitional speeds are more dependant that brute force.

Stock Civic against a C5 Vette isn't fair, However a light, yet well tuned WRX against a Heavy Vette or Lambo could be a whole'nother ball game as long as it's not straight line or sustained speeds :roll:

In the case of the BP’s, all things being equal (optimized cabinet, same power amp..etc) 1803, 1503, 1203 have same motor. The Power to weight ratio advantage (transitional response) would have to go to the 1203… Hypothetically speaking, at the cost of Amount of bass (Top Speed).

I know what your saying about generalizations.. I was just wondering for it is usually generalized that a sealed sub is more musical with tighter response than a ported or passive design.

Just wondering how general is general….. In order to determine what I best want out of a sub.

Maybe the idea is to have some sealed 10-12” design for music, and then the 15”-18" for deep copious HT material. or is that generalizing again? :W

[ThomasW]

Q

It's not 'speed' that's important with speakers, the important thing is acceleration, both + and - acceleration

The motor structure for the 1203 is actually too big, and not effectively utilized. The motor is a better fit for the 1503.

Bing,

You certainly don't need a new cabinet. You current design is adequate.

When I need to enlarge a cutout, I hot glue a piece of scrap behind the opening. Note it doesn't need to fill the hole just provide a pivot point for the router jig. Once the hole is enlarged, a hammer tap removes the scrap wood.

Retrofit your existing cabinet and give a listen. Then try plugging the port for comparison.

The concept of one type of sub for music and another for HT is just marketing. If a sub is good for music it will be fine for HT. Just up the output level and dial in a little added EQ.

If a sub doens't play loud enough for music then it won't be loud enough for HT.

I have a music test disc I take to audio shows, that blows away DVD soundtracks. And yes it contains infrasonic info. I took it to the Rocky Mtn Audio Fest last w/e and people were slack jawed at what was coming out of the high -end woofers.

[Bing Fung]

OK, I'm thinking XS Cargo in town has some of these drivers on for $80 cdn



400W Rms
800W Max
Dual 6-Ohm Voice Coils
180oz. Double Stacked Magnets
Mounting Depth: 6.1”
Mounting Diameter: 11.2”
Optimum Vented Box: 2 Cu/Ft
Round Port Diameter: (3) 3”
Square Port Area: 21 Sq/In
Port Length: 14”
Optimum Sealed Box: 0.75 – 1 Cu/Ft


If it fits the same hole in my old sub, I may pick one up just so I have bass. I don't think I care how it models. It will do for the time being until I design and build my new sub based on the 1203.

Whatcha think? :scratchhead:

[ThomasW]

Whatcha think?

I think that in an hour, or less, you can enlarge the hole to fit the 1203.

[Bing Fung]

Ahh, just read your post Thomas... Thanks for setting this loose cannon cowboy straight

I was planning on doing exactly what your saying regarding the hole enlargement. I could run into some problems with the blind nuts as they actually overlap the cut out hole. Removing them could be a buggar as I epoxied the crap out of them.

I was kind a turned on in making a Ariel clone sub (ported). Something small enough (2.5 cft) to fit in the corner beside my right main speaker.

[ThomasW]

You may find that the total depth of the hole doesn't need enlarging. See if the frame tapers on the 1203. If so start with the recess and maybe you won't need to worry about the inserts.

If they're T-nuts those aren't harded steel. So it would probably ruin a router bit, but using your oldest bit you could just throw it away after the last cut

[Andrew Pratt]

If they're T-nuts those aren't harded steel. So it would probably ruin a router bit, but using your oldest bit you could just throw it away after the last cut

I like the way you opperate Thomas

[Bing Fung]

Good Plan Thomas :T

Although I have no old router bits (yet :P ) :rofl:

Thinking about what you said, I will just use the old enclosure, as it now becumes a test mule, while I design the new "Mini Thomas" Ariel sub enclosure. I can then take my time about it, and if it never happens, Ah-well, Right? Although I would really like to take advantage of a smaller enclosure, seeing as I can. it just opens up moreopportunites for sub placement.

[ThomasW]

The 'cost' of a smaller enclosure is decreased efficiency, and a higher tuning point.

The trick with very small boxes is to use an LT circuit. Unfortunately those are a bit complicated to make. Note that the specific kind of EQ an LT circuit makes, can not be duplicated using a BFD.