Houston area speaker repair......???

[Cam McFarland]

Anybody able to recomend place to lengthen or replace
tinsel lead...???


Thanks,

- Cam

[ThomasW]

I suppose you should get a length from Kyle and splice it in.

It can't simply be replaced, since it's attached to the voice coil. Replacing it means reconing the driver.

[Cam McFarland]

I suppose you should get a length from Kyle and splice it in.

Not me...... :rofl:
That is why I was hoping for a local suggestion.

It can't simply be replaced, since it's attached to the voice coil. Replacing it means reconing the driver.

I was wondering about that, thanks.

[Cam McFarland]

I suppose you should get a length from Kyle and splice it in.

I emailed Kyle for some and this was his reply......

"Unfortunately, they are built right into the cone assembly and are not available separately."

I was under the impression that he built those drivers in house, I did not realize that he bought the cones and all ready made.

[ThomasW]

The BluePrint drivers are made in small lots for Kyle by Resonant Engineering

From your picture it appeared that the lead broke off right at the terminal. If that's the case just have it soldered back on to the terminal. Alsotrying to repair it using fine flexible braided wire (like 'solder wick' from Radio Shack) might work. Certainly wouldn't cost very much to find out

[David Meek]

Kyle? Picture?

Okay guys, share.

[Cam McFarland]

I had already taken it to a computer place & the owner soldered it back
for me, but it is now too short & does not allow full excursion.

David, no big deal except for a case of the DUMBA$$, but here
ya go......





I need to have the existing lead lengthened now & can't find the stuff, &
dont even know where to start looking...I guess I could try Radioo Shack.

[Cam McFarland]

just found this.......

ALLEN SPEAKER RECONING
919 W 19TH ST, Houston, TX-77008, 713-862-2747

will call tomorrow

[Cam McFarland]

Just called & the man refused to just splice in more wire.... :M







He will only glue new wire to the cone & said it should cost all
of $20.00.... :T

Drop it off today & pick up tomorrow.....wil post outcome.

[Cam McFarland]

Well went down to Allen's Speaker Reconning to drop off speaker.
Ronnie took a look at the driver & said "shoot, all we have to do is just
bend the terminal & you will have all the movement you need!" Not exact quote, but close.

Anyway he put aside what he was doing, got his trusty pliers, bent
what need to be bent, moved the solder point to end of terminal &
said "play the s**t out of it & would not take a cent.

Hats off to Ronnie......... :T

below is "after" pic & oh yeah, he likes the driver.... :W

[ThomasW]

Okay problem solved.

Now don't play anymore 10Hz sine waves ..........

[Andrew Pratt]

I was thinking along the same lines when I saw that first image but assumed it still wouldn't be long enough for you...glad its fixed.

[Cam McFarland]

Now I just have to figure out why it has great output when I put a
test tone through it, but when I try to watch a movie, it does almost
nothing.... :banghead:

[Andrew Pratt]

Cam we need some details....what test tones are you running (freq and volume) and what sort of box is it sitting in etc

[Cam McFarland]

Hey Andrew,

I ran the standard sine wave test tones after using my
AVIA disc to set speaker levels.

I actually have only run just a few frequencies through it before
trying a movie. The tones were run at "reference level"....receiver volume
at same setting I used to get all speaker output to ~75db at listening
position. Only tones I checked for db output were 15Hz & 20Hz
at the moment & db's were .....98 & 103 I think, all are uncorrected.

I made a clone of the sonosub Thomas made for Pete foundhere

The absolute ONLY difference is I recessed the driver about
half an inch, & I used a vinyl covering with a 1/4" foam pad underneath
to ensure no seams would be seen.

Here is a finished pic beside the Tempest I plan to replace....sorry it is so dark



Any other questions...fire away. :B

[Andrew Pratt]

what movies were you watching etc?

[Dennis H]

If you're using a receiver, check its LFE settings. A couple of them that can bite you are LFE level (separate from subwoofer volume) and the LFE peak limiter (or bass peak limiter). Some receivers ship with the limiter turned all the way down.

[Cam McFarland]

what movies were you watching

Only tried Black Hawk Down & Rundown & just get disgusted
.

A couple of them that can bite you are LFE level (separate from subwoofer volume) and the LFE peak limiter (or bass peak limiter). Some receivers ship with the limiter turned all the way down.

Thanks for the suggestions, I have been using this receiver for a while now
and can basically "A/B" between my sonosub & my Tempest. The Tempest just SMOKES the sonosub when playing movies, and it should be the other way around.
The sonosub is being powered by a Behringer EP-2500, bridged, with the gain at full tilt as I have been told one should do this. I actually have to go into the negatives (-4) with the LFE output to get the sub down to ~75db when trying to match the speakers while playing the AVIA disc.

With the Tempest & the 320w plate amp gain at about half way, the LFE out is at "0".

thanks for trying to help...keep the questions coming.. :B

[ThomasW]

Now I just have to figure out why it has great output when I put a
test tone through it, but when I try to watch a movie, it does almost
nothing....

I don't own an AVIA disk, are the sine waves you're using recorded on it?

When it's playing the sine waves what type of processing (decoding) is the receiver doing? 2 channel? PCM? DD? What?

[Cam McFarland]

Thomas,

The test tones are ones I saved to my hard drive. They came from
a site that is all linked to in MANY threads on HTF. Unfortunately I dont know where to find it.

They are the EXACT same ones I used for the Tempest.

There is a 10Hz to 100Hz sweep, & I also have individual tones
from 5Hz through about 160Hz.

When it's playing the sine waves what type of processing (decoding) is the receiver doing? 2 channel? PCM? DD? What?

Logic 7 5.1

I hope this is what you want to know.

[ThomasW]

I don't care about the source of the tones, I just wanted to know how they were being processed.

Forget about setting the speaker output levels so that they're all 75dB. My experience is that most LFE settings aren't correct.

Play a movie with the tubesub and raise the sub output level (from the receiver) until it reaches the loudness level you want. It doesn't matter if the receiver's setting is completely different from that of the Tempest.

If you can't reach a loudness level you want or expect, then we need to see if there's something else wrong.

BTW is there any bass boost being used with the plate amp?

[Cam McFarland]

BTW is there any bass boost being used with the plate amp?

It is the CSS SUB250RF from Creative Sound Solutions.
They have three different models of this amp. I ordered
this one because it is modified to REMOVE the bass boost.

Play a movie with the tubesub and raise the sub output level (from the receiver) until it reaches the loudness level you want.

Right now the sub output from the receiver is at -4 to get the output from the sonosub down to 75db.

For the Tempest, it is set at "0".

You are saying to raise it up to like +6 or +8 at the receiver to try to get it
louder.....OK.

[ThomasW]

Forget about the 75dB setting for the tube. The output settings are in a sense an abstraction, designed as more as a guide than something set in stone.

It certainly isn't surprising that the Tempest is louder if it's LFE output setting is higher than that of the tube sub.

If these numbers represent dB then the Tempest is getting more than double the power sent to it compared to the BP. A +3 dB increase represents DOUBLE the power

You should use whatever output level settings are necessary, to get the performance you want from the sub.

[Cam McFarland]

OK......I put in "The Punisher" & upped the LFE out to +5.
At this point i was getting ALOT of output, this was with the
volume at reference level, but it seemed to
be only the VERY low freq.

At this point, I put back in the sine wave cd & had to back the
volume to -15 from reference level as it started to go nuts.
I started the tones at 25Hz, At -15 it
was hitting 108db uncorrected at 25Hz.
I did some more frequencies upwards, as I was thinking for some
strange reason the sonosub maybe was not producing
the "mid" sub freq. I checked from 30Hz to 100Hz & it was probably
averaging ~100db.

OK....now I put in Rundown & played it from the start, I immediately
had to raise the volume to -5, but things were mellow except for
the LOW notes, & these were extreme in the volume differences.
So different that at times I couldnt tell if anything was being produced
or not.......as I said above, it is as if while watching movies, the sub would
only puts out like 40Hz & below......and the lower it gets, the more
this thing was HITTING ....it DEFINITELY hits the low notes
like the Tempest could only dream of.

Then halfway into the bar fight, on one of the "lower" freq.
punches, the sub went...............pop.......AND no sound.

I have either fried the VC or popped the lead again. I think (& hope)
it is the latter as this is what it did before.

I have people coming over so will be switching back to the Tempest
& will have to check "late" tonight, or tomorrow.


Hey.....at least I know everything works (or I hope still will, lol)
I just have to figure out now why it plays like it does.

Thanks everyone!!! :B

[ThomasW]

Well this is a situation where your learning curve needs to get steeper and some common sense needs to kick in.

Hopefully you only popped the other lead. This indicates the driver is being over powered again.

If originally you had the BP at -4 and you raised it to +5 that's a HUGE increase in output.

You have an amp set up to deliver 2400 watts. That's 2.4 times higher than the BP's max power rating of 1000 watts. Reconfigure the amp back to stereo and only use one channel. That will give you 750 watts, to keep things safe and sane while you learn about this sub.

Also you need to stop using any sine waves for setting output levels. Sine waves should only be used when setting EQ levels and then only with LOW output levels. Pink noise (the receiver generated test tones) are the proper signal for setting output levels. .

Your impressions of the BP playing lower frequencies and missing the upper ones maybe simply be a function of room placement.

[Cam McFarland]

Also you need to stop using any sine waves for setting output levels

A little confusion here....I was not using the sine waves to set
output levels.
If I accidentally said that I am sorry. I use the AVIA DVD to set output levels.
I only use the sine waves to check output at a
specific frequency in order to gauge (for me) how the sub is performing.

Your impressions of the BP playing lower frequencies and missing the upper ones maybe simply be a function of room placement.

Would one sub respond differently in the same place as another sub?
The two subs are basically touching.

[Cam McFarland]

Stay tuned for the next exciting episode of "Driver from Hell"......

When we last saw our fearless driver, it was strapped into a torture
rack & submitted to various experiments that a mere "mortal" driver
could never survive......lets see what is happening now..... 8O

Well, I guess you ALL remember I took my sub to ALLENS SPEAKER RE-CONING . Ronnie had bent the terminal & moved the lead to the end
of it a re-soldered.
Well, he does a good job of soldering..... :rofl:



The terminal broke.....dang these subs are BULLETPROOF if they
can pass the Cam test.... :B

[ThomasW]

Would one sub respond differently in the same place as another sub?

Yeap a difference of just a foot or two can completely change the performance.

I use the AVIA DVD to set output levels

I've never seen a multi-channel receiver that lacked a built-in test tone generator.

Take the speaker back to Allens and see what they can do. Since the terminal is screwed in place it can simply be replaced. But now the leads are getting pretty short. Allens might be able to splice in length or replace the old leads ones with newer longer ones.

BTW which Adire design did you build?

Also you need to understand the SPL's decrease logarithmically with distance from the speaker. For example

Loudness decreases by 6 dB (half as loud) every time the distance from the sound source is doubled
If you start 3 feet from the speaker and move back to 6 feet, it will sound half as loud (-6 dB)
If you move from 6 feet to 12 feet, it will reduce in volume by half again

This means if you're taking your measurements from the listening position and it's 12' from the woofer, the woofer itself is playing +12 dB louder than any corrected measurements you're making. And if you're making uncorrected measurements the sound is probably another +12dB or more louder depending on the frequency.

This is why you're popping the speaker leads with 98dB measurements at the listening position. At the speaker itself the corrected value SPL's are approx +24dB louder.

Finally human hearing is less sensitive to LFE that's why it doesn't seem all that loud as compared to 120-130dB at 1000Hz, where you'd run out of the room screaming in pain.

[Cam McFarland]

I've never seen a multi-channel receiver that lacked a built-in test tone generator.

A little misunderstanding...I never said the receiver didnt have a test tone generator, I just said I use the AVIA DVd to set the levels.

Take the speaker back to Allens and see what they can do. Since the terminal is screwed in place it can simply be replaced. But now the leads are getting pretty short. Allens might be able to splice in length or replace the old leads ones with newer longer ones

I was thinking I could just solder a short piece of something where the terminal is broken. I didnt lose any length, it just broke where he bent it.

What could I put in there to add about 3/8", or would this be a bad idea?

BTW which Adire design did you build?

Adire Alignment.


I do take measurements from seating position which is about 10'-12' away.

Finally human hearing is less sensitive to LFE that's why it doesn't seem all that loud as compared to 120-130dB at 1000Hz, where you'd run out of the room screaming in pain.

I can understand this....I just cant understand why the Tempest has performed great at ALL frequencies with no problems like this, & this
one is SO much different.
It just strikes me as abnormal that I can play the sonosub & hear the
LOW freq. so well & not the slightly higher ones & then switch to the Tempest & can hear all freq. equally as well...

[ThomasW]

I would have Allens look at it. It's not going to be easy to solder that thin piece of metal back on to the post. Silver solder maybe required since it can handle more heat compared to regular solder. Also the leads themselves are woven and will tend to 'wick' solder, it that happens they'll become stiff and unusable. So the soldering technique need to be quite hot and done very quickly.

There are many differences between not only the drivers themselves, but their enclosures, and their position in the room.

The Tempest box gets the advantage of being corner loaded. That means it's output is boosted as a result of boundry loading between the 2 walls and the floor. The Tempest is in a bigger box, bigger boxes inherently play louder. The Tempest isn't a high excursion driver therefore it's performance is inherently flatter without using EQ.

If the driver hole cutout sizes are the same, put the BP in the Adire box and see how it sounds.

For safety set the amp back to stereo and run one channel until we get things figured out. Be sure that in low cut filters are turned off (3 & 8 ) and that 4 & 5 are set to stereo. Turn fully counter clockwise (off) the input level control for the channel that isn't being used.

[Cam McFarland]

I had called Allens earlier today & they must not be open Saturdays.
I will go monday. He has some real nice heavy duty tinsel lead
in a big roll......maybe I better have him stock up... :rofl:

I believe the BP driver is larger in diameter than the tempest.

There are many differences between not only the drivers themselves, but their enclosures, and their position in the room.

I have to ask another stupid question....Can moving the sonosub
around the room cause the "upper" sub freq. output to go up &
yet keep the output of the lower (currently fine) freq. to stay as
they are?

The Tempest isn't a high excursion driver therefore it's performance is inherently flatter without using EQ.

My Tempest is nowhere near flat, here some numbers I got a while back.
These numbers were taken from my listening position about 10-12 ft away.

Hz. uncorrected.....corrected
10 - 88..................108
15 - 84.................96.75
16 - 91.................102.5
17 - 93.................103.5
18 - 94.................103.5
19 - 95.................103.5
20 - 97.................104.5
25 - 102................107
27 - 112................116.33

At this point i had to back down the volume by -5 for the next 4 tones as I felt the sub was gonna come apart & I didnt want to damage anything. I was hitting levels over 115dbs....

28 - 107.................111
30 - 112.................115.33
32 - 112.................115
35 - 107.................110

Here I went back to original volume setting...

40 - 97.................99.5
46 - 96.................98
50 - 93.................94.5
56 - 93.................94.5
60 - 93.................94.5

I had a BFD & put it into the mix a week or so later.
I was able to smoth it some, but not as well as I would have liked.

Still, not too bad.......

[ThomasW]

My Tempest is nowhere near flat,

I didn't say it would be, I just said that inherently it would be flatter than the BluePrint. The reason for this is that the BluePrint's massive voice coil structure has a higher inductance. That rolls off it's output at higher frequencies (70Hz and up basically)

Hz. uncorrected.....corrected
10 - 88..................108
15 - 84.................96.75
16 - 91.................102.5
17 - 93.................103.5
18 - 94.................103.5
19 - 95.................103.5
20 - 97.................104.5
25 - 102................107
27 - 112................116.33

You can see the effects of the room at 15 Hz and 27Hz. Peaks and or valleys are room inducted effects.

I was able to smoth it some, but not as well as I would have liked.

Flat response is usually a little boring. That's why most people create a 'house curve' which is customized to their particular taste. The best way to go about that is start with as flat a response as is reasonably possible, then add boost to one's liking.

BTW, I should point out that if your expectation is bass so loud that it knocks the listener unconscious, one 1503 won't do the job. 2 might and 4 definitely will......

[Cam McFarland]

BTW, I should point out that if your expectation is bass so loud that it knocks the listener unconscious, one 1503 won't do the job. 2 might and 4 definitely will......

Doesn't need to be loud, just like to feel it. But I guess you cant really
have one without the other

[Cam McFarland]

BTW....I took the driver back to Allens & Ronnie re-soldered it & said
I did not need to replace the terminal.
He has not even asked me how/why I keep breaking the darn
thing.... :roll:

And again....would not take any money...... :T

I have been too sick to want to mess with it, so the driver is still
outside the enclosure for now.

[Wayne A. Pflughaupt]

Cam,

Hope you don't have that sinus/bronchial thing that's been floating around the area...

He has not even asked me how/why I keep breaking the darn thing....

Don’t forget, he typically caters to professional musicians. If yours doesn’t even get on his radar screen, what does it tell you about the stuff he’s seen that does?

Like maybe this:



Image not available



I think it would be helpful to see some 1/6-octave readings, for comparison to the Tempest readings above.

For instance, looking at the Tempest readings it looks like it’s really heavy in the lowest frequencies, where you feel them most, but lacking up the upper frequencies that are heard more than felt. If this is a function of your room, and if the BP is even more exaggerated in this manner, I can see why you would feel it was doing great with test tones yet lacking with program material. I suppose the tendency has been to turn it up to compensate, which of course is why it’s being overdriven.

Also, I really don’t trust that Behringer amp, especially bridged and with the way you are running it. Do you have another one you could use for comparison? At the very least I’d do as Thomas suggests and run it unbridged until you get this figured out.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

[Cam McFarland]

Hope you don't have that sinus/bronchial thing that's been floating around the area

yep, I think so........


You are right, I am sure broken leads dont mean much to him, lol.

If this is a function of your room, and if the BP is even more exaggerated in this manner, I can see why you would feel it was doing great with test tones yet lacking with program material.

I thought I was going crazy when I was noticing this. I couldnt figure out
how it could be happening.

I suppose the tendency has been to turn it up to compensate, which of course is why it’s being overdriven.

I would only have kept the receiver output at where I was getting reference levels, but it was suggested I turn up the output at the receiver to where I
got acceptable output.

I do not have any other amp, but will go to one channel to figure it out.
I just dont feel up to it at the moment & still have not put the driver in.
I have been sleeping the last three days.

Thanks.........

[Cam McFarland]

I think it would be helpful to see some 1/6-octave readings, for comparison to the Tempest readings above

.

Soon as I feel better, & then find out what this means, I'll do it......

[Cam McFarland]

OK...uncorrected numbers in same spot as always.
AVIA disc was used to calibrate speakers, volume at
reference level.

The Behringer has been put in stereo mode...

UNCORRECTED NUMBERS

18Hz....102db
19Hz....103db
20Hz....107db
22Hz....106db
23Hz....107db
24Hz....108db
25Hz....108db
26Hz....109db
28Hz....112db
30Hz....113db
32Hz....109db
35Hz....107db
36Hz....105db
38Hz....105db
40Hz....101db
42Hz....94db
44Hz....92db
46Hz....90db
50Hz....93db
56Hz....102db
60Hz....107db
63Hz....107db
66Hz....109db
71Hz....111db
80Hz....110db
89Hz....107db
100Hz..103db


I reckon I can see why it seemed as though it was not putting out at what I was calling "upper freq" due to the bad dip between 42Hz-50Hz....is this a reasonable assumption?

I have not moved the sub as yet, it is basically touching the Tempest, but is
4-5ft from the corner, against the wall.

Any comments would be greatly appreciated......



EDIT: I put "Rundown" in and tried again...still is very weak compared to the Tempest. This is without boosting the LFE out as suggested to get it to sound better. I did notice the red lights on the amp coming on, though.
That never happened in bridged mode.

[ThomasW]

One DOES NOT take sine wave measurements with the subwoofer set to reference output levels (105dB pink noise for a subwoofer). Output levels that high cause permanent ear damage.

Here's a link to the OSHA guidlines for exposure to sound

http://home.i1.net/~praetor/sound/osha.html

Output levels drop -6dB for every doubling of distance from the sub. If your listening position is 12' from the sub, the driver itself is playing an additional 12dB louder than even the corrected numbers!

So at 18Hz, the corrected nearfield output of the driver is approx 120dB!

Use ONLY corrected measurements with output levels no higher than 110dB below 20Hz. REMEMBER frequencies below 20Hz CAN'T be heard!

If this were any driver other than a BluePrint, you would have destroyed 3 of them at this point.

The dip is a function of room placement. The 4'-5' difference between the room placement, and the corner loading of the Tempest is a BIG deal.

The red light means that you're driving the amplifier at output levels that are causing it to distort. Meaning in excess of 700-800 watts since the 1503 is really a 3 ohm driver.

I drove Pete's tube to output levels that shook my 2500sq ft brick house using no more than 400 watts

[Cam McFarland]

Thanks Thomas......

One DOES NOT take sine wave measurements with the subwoofer set to reference output levels

What is the proper way to figure out your subs output if not done at
reference level?
Would you set it at say "-10", & then add "10" to all the numbers?

I will be moving the Tempest out of the corner at some time today
& put the sonotube in its place. I will re-run some, if not all, the
frequencies after this is done.

[ThomasW]

I believe I've already explained reference levels. They are fundamentally an arbitrary number decided upon by THX to be used for setting relative output levels using PINK NOISE NOT sine waves.

Sine wave output level testing should be done with MUCH MUCH lower output levels than pink noise reference setting.

There is a HUGE difference in the amount of power being used with sine waves vs pink noise.

One DOES NOT use reference output levels with sine waves for comparing relative output levels.

Safe sine wave testing starts with one setting the sub level around 85-90dB (at the listening position) with a 25Hz wave. Then change the frequencies and look at the changes in the relative output levels. That's how one decides how much boost or cut (EQ) is needed.

You really need to do some research so as to understand the relationship between power levels and dB.

We'll start with this

Amplifier output - It takes 2 times the power from an amp to change the volume 3dB. In other words if an amp is producing 1 watt of power it needs to increase to 2 watts of power to make a 3dB change. This is a ratio of 2:1. By the same token if the amp is producing 50 watts of power it will need to increase to 100 watts to produce a 3dB change. 100 watts would take 200 watts for that same change.

How much power would it take to Increase the SPL 10dB? It will take 10 times the power to increase the SPL by 10dB! In other words, if your amp was producing 50 watts of power you would need to increase it to 500 watts to achieve a 10dB increase. As you can see it takes a lot of power to get a small increase in volume.

http://www.musiccenters.com/vol.html

http://www.axiomaudio.com/archives/power.html

[Cam McFarland]

Thomas....has anybody ever told you that you know what you
are talking about? :B


OK......moved the tube into the corner....LARGE improvment!
Still seems as though some frequencies are not as they should be when watching a DVD. Everything hits harder than the Tempest, just seems as though there are "gaps" where the bass falls off, even though when it falls
off it is harder than the Tempest , just kind of a miniscule lull until the next note and WHAM in your face again....

I hooked up the BFD in order to boost some of the frequencies.....everything
I tried to boost dropped instead of increasing.....what the heck?

[Dennis H]

Boosting nulls doesn't work. They are reflected waves cancelling each other and the extra power you pump in just disappears into a black hole (and breaks speakers.) Try fine tuning the speaker and chair position so you don't have any deep nulls. Then you can use EQ to cut any remaining peaks. It may seem like you are giving up slam but you really aren't - you are really just letting the speaker do its job in the most efficient way.

[Cam McFarland]

Hey Dennis,

Yep, I cut back ALOT on my Tempest with the BFD, & on this I cut back a little about 28-30Hz, but thought I would be able to raise the
40-50Hz range a bit....

It is a fairly flat to begin with, just that dang 40-50Hz dip that unfortunately
is noticable when watching DVDs. (even by me, lol)

[ThomasW]

Sorry I missed your update yesterday.

Location, location, location........... :wink:

Unfortunately 40-50 Hz isn't where one wants a null, (not that any place else is actually 'good' either)

As Dennis said the 'trick' with nulls is to use the EQ to pull down the output of the frequencies on either side of it. Note doing that won't help boost the null itself. It will flatten the in-room response, which is a good thing.
After you've cut the frequencies on either side of the null, then try just a little boost at the null frequency. Measure the output, if there's no increase with the boost then remove it.

The only other option is to move the sub to a different location and see what happens there. As you've seen, moving the sub a few feet one way or the other can have a BIG impact on the frequency response