Any thoughs on this kit?

[James W. Johnson]

I am looking at the "system 2" on this page, its about $500 for a pair..

http://www.bamberglab.com/NPA_S1-S2.htm

[Al Garay]

Maybe you should describe your wants and requirements. What is it you are after?

[James W. Johnson]

What is it you are after?

Whatever I dont have and whatever I cannot get.

[James W. Johnson]

...and when I do get what I don't have then I figure since I have it , it cannot be that good so I keep on looking.

[JonMarsh]

These are nice kits, built with the same PE sourced cabinets as I used for a system for my daughter last year. I'm not a fan of doped paper cone woofers and soft dome tweeters, but they have their proponents, and I expect those people will like these systems pretty well. This guy's been doing this for a while, so he's not a fly by night flake by any means.

Note: Two 6-1/2" or 7" woofers have about the same radiating area (Sd) as one 8" driver. Think about it. This is why I went to a lot of trouble coming up with a workable two way 8" design. It's also why Linkwitz uses 8" drivers, too.

The BESL S2 MTM system looks pretty nice; it uses a relatively low order crossover, with one of the Excel tweeters to make it work. This is probably the best soft dome tweeter made, along with the top of the line ScanSpeak models. Apparently it's not ready for delivery, yet. The System 5 should be very good, but then look at the price tag. The only point I don't like about the system 5 is using a PR; PR's really screw up the transient response in the deep bass. Just look at the step response using Unibox to analyze...

We've built a few PR type systems at different times, and always went back to ported or sealed.

Best regards,

Jon

[James W. Johnson]

Note: Two 6-1/2" or 7" woofers have about the same radiating area (Sd) as one 8" driver. Think about it. This is why I went to a lot of trouble coming up with a workable two way 8" design. It's also why Linkwitz uses 8" drivers, too.
>>>>>>>>>>>

Wow, I did not know that, ok then I guess I need a kit with at least a few 8" mid/midbasses in it.

I'd do the M8As but I am ready to build now and cannot locate any drivers.


Several speaker at http://www.pispeakers.com seem to fit the bill as far as SPL output and power handling but I doubt they will sound as good as something like your M8A speakers.

I'd really like a speaker that sounds great at all volume levels.....

30% of the time I watch movies
10% of the time I watch movies at loud THX reference levels
30% of the time I listen to music uncritically (its on and I am all over the place)
10% of the time I listen to music at high SPLs , if its clean and loud that is.
10% of the time I listen to music critically at low volumes , usually < 80dB

Here is a list of several main speakers I have owned...

Paradigm Monitor 7s
PSB Stratus Bronze
PSB Image series 4 or 5ts , I forget offhand
Mission something or other bookshelfs.
JBL Studio bookshelfs
JBL Studio floorstanders....the name escapes me.
Audax HT Kit bookshelfs
Adire Kit 281s (8" drivers)
Klipsch RF-3IIs (8" drivers)


They all sucked to some degree or another and they all had at
least one good property about them.


I'd really like the Pi speakers to work but I doubt they will...I was offered a really nice deal from Rick Craig of Selah audio to build a new array speaker that uses 10 5.25" Silver Flutes and 8 Fountek JP2 ribbons per side but Thomas seems to think I will fry the ribbons and I have no reason not to believe him.

How about I just give Thomas and you $1000 and you guys come up with something to fit my needs?

[Al Garay]

Buy the Excel W22 and the SS9800. Begin building the cabinet. By the time you have the cabinet ready, Jon may have the modification you need to make it work with the W22. Worst case, you have a very popular driver that you can use for building a dipole, like the Orion, or easily sell.

DIY requires patience and participation. Humor is helpful.

If you are low on these, check out the Eton kits from Madisound or contact MeniscusAudio who have a large catalog of kits they can offer you right now.

Good luck,

Al

[Hank]

8" drivers. Yes. Ken, former owner of SCH, my #1 recommendation for value, budget kits, and quite a gentleman, used an 8" in his two-way tower design that I built a few of. I don't have a budget recommendation anymore, but if you can build your own cabinets (or have a friend or local cabinet shop build 'em), you have choices:
1. Wait for the drivers.
2. Keep looking. Check out GR Research. I've built the A/V-3's for a customer and the new TL version for me. A good dual-purpose HT/music speaker.
From what I've read here, I'd wait for the drivers and build the M8a 2-way, just because i haven't built them yet. Curiosity can be a dangerous thing in DIY. :roll:

Humor is helpful.

OH, YES!! :rofl:

[ThomasW]

What's the saying "no good deed goes unpunished?" :B

We that's the situation we're in. We spent a couple of years developing a very high-end systems with primarily modestly priced drivers. Then just as we go for the finale', the bottom falls out of the M8 supply.... :evil:

In hindside I guess we should have spent the big bucks and developed the systems using the Seas W-22 woofers. But at $163/driver, how many people were going to build a MTM??????????

Hank,

Danny's small midwoofers; with their minimal Xmax, and smallish voice coils, would be toast in less than a week at James' house. The GR tweeters wouldn't last very long either with their 1st order or series XO's.

There's a reason we've been suggesting that James built nothing smaller than a MTM using dual 8" midwoofers with VERY steep XO slopes for the tweeters

[James W. Johnson]

Ok things have changed and can wait on the M8A drivers for awhile because I have a project.

I got dealer pricing on the drivers and horn needed to build the Stage Series 4 Pis so if I dont like them I wont be out much.

The Stage 4 Pis use an Eminence Omega 15 , a PSD-2002 compression driver and an H-290 Horn. If I dont like them I will use them as party speakers for my back yard or something but you never know...some people take Pi speaker pretty seriously..take a look at some of these excellent looking Pi projects..

http://www.audioroundtable.com/PiSpeakers/messages/13996.html

[Hank]

There's a reason we've been suggesting that James built nothing smaller than a MTM using dual 8" midwoofers with VERY steep XO slopes for the tweeters

James...just out of curiosity, what's your age? And, have you heard of the cumulative, non self-repairing nature of hearing damage from prolonged high spl exposure? h:

[James W. Johnson]

Do you think that makes me feel good when I get hounded over my listening habits? Well , i'll tell you..no it does not and you make my stay here not much fun. I came here to have a good time and you are ruining it for me.

Thanks Hank

[Steve Goff]

Well as someone who has lived with painful hyperacusis for the last five years, on and off, I can tell you that it is far less fun than being hounded by Hank. Tinnitus and hearing loss are also among the wonderful possibilities awaiting folks at ear-abuse paradise. Have fun!

[Ten 99]

Do you think that makes me feel good when I get hounded over my listening habits? Well , i'll tell you..no it does not and you make my stay here not much fun. I came here to have a good time and you are ruining it for me.

Thanks Hank

James,

I love your enthusiasm to explore and build, and I would hate to see that discouraged. However, I really don't think I would consider the few comments made by Hank as "hounding" you. I think that he is just trying to give you a friendly heads-up. Most, if not all of us listened to music at rather ear-splitting levels in our youth. The realities of hearing loss are a real-deal. If you don't care, that's cool too. It's your ears. But just as much as I appreciate seeing warnings about the potential hazards of electrical shock, and other possible misfortunes when reading on some DIY amps that you can build, and other things, I think that the wisdom that some of these longer time DIYer types are giving us is just that - good advice. You are welcome to ignore it at your own risk, but these are just folks that being nice and looking out for your benefit. Having met Hank, I can tell you that he is a super-nice dude. He helped open my eyes to see what a DIYer could do.

Please, by all means, build what YOU want to build. No one is suggesting otherwise.

[James W. Johnson]

First of all you don't have all the information..if your gonna preach at least have your crap together first.

Second , I have been hanging around at these forums since 1998 , so I have heard Hank's line so many times I could puke.

All the information? Well look around , read, I rarely crank it up...I've said it before and I'll say it again..high SPLs in small does are perfectly safe.

[Ten 99]

First of all you don't have all the information..if your gonna preach at least have your crap together first.

Second , I have been hanging around at these forums since 1998 , so I have heard Hank's line so many times I could puke.

All the information? Well look around , read, I rarely crank it up...I've said it before and I'll say it again..high SPLs in small does are perfectly safe.

Okay bro, I'll go ahead and bow out. I didn't think I was preaching. I don't appreciate being told I don't have my crap together.

I'm not going to argue with you, or fight about it. It's not prudent nor the function of these forums. I don't mind fighting, but not here. I don't typically fight nice.

Enjoy your Pi.

[Hank]

Actually, in my hundres of posts on many forums, I've not posted the "high spls are cumulativey damagine more than a couple or few times, and it was sincerely meant to be in a positive tone. My first love is music, and I would hate to not be able to hear its nuances because of protracted hearing loss. With that, I'll bow at too.
Go make some sawdust and build some speakers - that's what it's all about.

[Brian Bunge]

James,

I have to tell you that you are severely over-reacting. Hank was simply asking an innocent question. You really have not been around here much in the last year or so, so it's perfectly possible that Hank does not remember previous discussions. Also, if you'll remember, you and I had a similar run in on another forum when you flew off the handle after I asked an innocent question to which you took great offense. It took a couple of days for you to come to your senses and realize I truly was just asking a question and not being a prick.

Having said that, you will not find a finer gentleman on the 'net or anywhere else in this world than Hank Frankenberg. We could all take lessons from him on how to conduct oneself in a mature, professional manner.

[ThomasW]

James,

Polite is nice, and necessary

Everyone else please stop REACTING.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++

For those that don't know I worked in heath care for DECADES. So I have more than casual experience with the causes of hearing damage. Here's what happens.

Even short exposure to high SPL's can cause what's know as 'threshold shift'. This is were the cells of the tympanic membrane (aka ear drum) change their shape. The immediate effect of this is a slight ringing in the ears (aka tinnitius). After a few hours the cells start returing to their original shape. BUT once shifted, they never NEVER to their exact original shape. The effects of exposure to SPL levels that cause 'threshold shift' are cumulative. So every time, more damage is done. It's not reversable.

Studies have shown that short bursts of high amplitude, high SPL sound (gunfire for example) is more quickly damaging than longer periods of less high exposure. BUT BOTH cause permanent hearing damage.

So unless you want to spend your 'golden' years hearing the nonstop sound of 'crickets' inside your head, (note that people have committed suicide to escape the effects of tinnitius) keep the volume reasonable..... :T

[JonMarsh]

This reminds me of...

.... when we built my X1 SLAMM Klones way back when...

With the driver complement and low distortion inherent to the design, being the slightly dufus guys that we are from time to time, we just basically turned them up until they sounded about right, i.e., not yet distorting obviously... this was driven with a borrowed Aragon 8008BB, which started our love affair with Aragon amps, as it soundly trounced the Adcom monoblocks Thomas had...

After a few hours of blissful listening this way, we realized that the SPL's were quite a bit more than we normally use, (but didn't realize due to the low distortion) and perhaps a bit more than we should be using.


I still have my top modules, and plan to retrofit them and build new bottom modules with the TC2+ 12" woofers, which will be a little more compact.

If you like clean and loud, James, something like these might be for you...





No responsibility for any subsequent impairment of leases or hearing. :W


Regards,

Jon

[Andrew Pratt]

If you do end up building the M8a's would you guys still recomend the extra resistors we added to mine when my cousin blew up my tweeters? I don't think I've seen you guys mention that mod anywere else but given the low cost of a few more resistors it seems worthy of mentioning...for what its worth I've had my M8a's playing very loud before and they can handle it fine...though distortion seems to creep up from the tweeters far sooner then the M8a driver. This really isn't an issue for me though as I rarely play it that loud.

[ThomasW]

Andrew,

I think we dealt with the issue of some of the specified resistor not being in your original speakers? I tried to find the thread where your cousin toasted them but can't. If you know where it is being a link to this thread