CSS Spires oppinion?

[Andrew Pratt]

Thomas/Jon what are your thoughts on this kit?

http://www.creativesound.ca/details.php?model=SPIRES

the manual is here

From what I can see they seem to have a decent freq response and with the array of small drivers they should play fairly well...but not to deep so they'll need a sub to augment the bottom end. I might be inclined to bump up the MDF width to at least 3/4" and add in some bracing but the price is very attractive. There's also a matching centre channel with the tweeter in he middle flanked by two drivers. The XO seems extremely simply but then maybe it can be with these drivers...These aren't for me BTW as I still love my M8a's :W

[ThomasW]

I would recommend the person wait until they have a bigger budget.........

`

[Gordon Moore]

Since Andrew is asking on my behalf...I guess the next question is why wait for a bigger budget?

Maybe some background is in order...receiver...department store Sony STR-DE series 5.1 ready...panasonic DVD player (taking care of the DD decoding)...low end everything else. 10" infinity sub SSW-10 on permament loan.

These speaks wouldn't work out for me? The room isn't super big about 400-500sq ft of open basement (just a guess though)

80-90% movies the rest music.

I was originally looking at the Athena CS-1 (since the kids wrecked my center speaker...over-active game of catch indoors...ah 5 yr olds) and then the F2's as mains one day but Andrew thought these might be good to build.

If not, what might you suggest?
Maybe something more like Andrews? Don't really have the room for a center of that size though....

help :sos:

[David R.]

wouldn't mind giving these a try one day..

http://www.audiocomponents.nl/speakers/vifa/premium/vifa-premium_eng.htm

Seems like theres a few DIY'ers in wpg.. Should try and do a DIY gathering one day..

[ThomasW]

Here's the $64,000 question.........

Do you really want to invest (time, labor, money) building a loudspeaker system centered around driver with a retail cost of US$12?

[robertwb70]

I'd suggest some of these instead-only $100 more and they don't need much power -only potential problem is matching a sub up to a 95 db at 1 watt speaker-but that can be overcome

adire 10.1 kit

[Andrew Pratt]

David a local DIY meeting would be fantastic.

[ThomasW]

First off, 400-500 sq ft isn't exactly what I'd call 'small'. Second, movie soundtracks tend to be somewhat demanding. As a result I don't think using 'pee-wee' drivers (even a bunch of them), is a good idea for HT.

I recommend chosing from the Adire kit-281/kit-81/kit-81C/kit-LCC. Since these all use the same drivers, you can mix and match to suit your needs and wants

If you have space and the budget, start with a pair of the kit-281 as mains. If those are physically too big, use the kit-81's as both fronts and rears.

I realize that the cost any of these suggestions is higher than that of the Spires. However IMO the Adire designs represent a significantly better long term investment.

[David R.]

David a local DIY meeting would be fantastic.

It would be fun.. Im just not sure how many DIY'ers have built main speakers etc.. Most DIY seems to be sub...

The adire kits are another good suggestion.. I use them and so far im quite happy with them. The 281's ported & LCC are not small though. All though sealed 281's could be a option.

[Andrew Pratt]

Yeah I'm not sure how many mains there are in the city...I do know Creative has made a few though...and besides its not like I can move my IB sub anyway

[David R.]

Im currently working on a SVS 20/39 clone for a friend, complete with grill top, and recessed amp.. Doubt you could tell the difference between it and a SVS .

Only problem im having is finding the fabric that SVS uses.. I have tried looking for a pre-stitched sock but have come up with nothing.. I might end up buying a quality material and stitching it.

anyway, thats enough hi-jacking of Gordons thread.. The topic was mains i think?

[Gordon Moore]

Hi-jack away I don't mind

Thomas thanks very much for your input. <deleted>
Okay, so research into more suitable kits is in order!

I'm probably biting off more than I can chew, but it won't be the first time I've done that

I'll start looking into the various kits people have suggested...I'll keep you posted as to where this goes.

It's a Heinz 57 system anyway...so most importantly is fronts and center (with Center being most immediate since mine is dead).

David you've done some real quality work...so I may bug you for input as well...hope that's okay.

l8r

[ThomasW]

I'm probably biting off more than I can chew, but it won't be the first time I've done that

Andrew's built the M8a MK-IV's a couple of times
So helping you with something like the Adire kits will be a piece of cake....... 8)

[Gordon Moore]

Would these be considered a step up from the Spires?

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&PartNumber=300-640&DID=7

[RAW]

Well hi to you all from out west.
The Spires was designed as a BUGET line.
Nothing high priced, but high out put.
If tuning is placed high at 95plus these will handle a lot of power with no issue of excursion at all.As well the off axis will eat up most other speaker designs.
Show me a tweeter that cost $12.00 that at 22k is only down 2.5db


OK $12.00 driver X 5=$60.00 plus filter ,wire,insulation.
NOTHING realy for profit. few dollars.When sold for the price each kit is being sold for.
Different profit margin if we had ordered in a few thousand drivers from TB.But wqhen yo uahve to purchase them from Nuera and resell them.Profit on each driver goes out the window per driver.
You look at a MT cost on drivers over a kit.
Cost out the BR1.
Drivers cost $18.00 ?
http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htforum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=195967

But the price of the 871 driver over a tweeter will walk over most tweeters costing up to $100.00.
Show me a $12.00 tweeter that goes to 27K.And goes down to 125hz.
I will wait for every speaker company to due so.
The drivers you have mentioned may just walk threw the roof in price as well.
Just to let you know if you have not seen on other forums.Nuera has been sold to Speaker City in Vancouver BC.
The W3-871 and W3-319S1 are now in limbo to what they will price them for.

Speaker cost is 100% not related to the final product.
I can name a ton of speaker manufactures that put $4-5.00 drivers in speakers that finished speakers retail for $1000.00 PLUS USD.

Yes info is never hidden in any design I have done or ever will be.
I think before those who have not tried or listed to a design before making comments should do a little home work themself.

Al

[Gordon Moore]

And this fact finding is what it's all about...

Okay so let's get away from the cost of the driver, thing...I don't wish for that to be the focus...and I'll detract my comment if it makes life simpler for folks...

So....

How's it going to work out with my stuff in my room? Sell me on the spires man :wink:

Do you have any customer reviews on how these speakers worked out when they did the kit?

I'm looking to upgrade to a Yamaha receiver the new HTR-5760 or the Yammie 1400 in the not-so-distant future.

Budget speaks are fine by me...but based on what I said eariler...how will they sound in a room of size.

[RAW]

I have built 3 systems using the Spires myself complete install along with Audio gear as well.
5.1 system matched with a Shiva in the 14" cube as Andrew has built this kit as well.(sub LMK )
6.1 system with a down firing 8"
7.1 system with a 8" and PR.
The largest 7.1 system went into a 20X26 foot room
Not dampened at all .Just a carpeted room.No panels on any walls.
Running a Yamaha 1400 reciever as per yourself.
Tuned the Spires to 100HZ for even more power handling.
The customer was more than stunned at theoutput and over all frequency responce that was happening from the Spire.
Others have purchased the kits in 5 packs as well as 6,7 packs.

I have had others comare them to the Totem Arro, and others.comments were lower tuning from the Arro hands down.But over all richness ,detail and off axis has always went to the Spires.

The cabinet plans are done a few ways.
Tower design with 871 at the top
Tower design with 871 in the middle
Bookself designs same as above
The towers have a dead air space in the bottom I fill with sand.The bookshelf is the same volume just without the large air space to make the tower.
This design was a slim tower look.So 5" was the width and just play around with what you want for depth then make the length what you want.

Tuning is done with a port hole no tube.By drilling a proper size hole in the wood and then doing a radius if you wanted to make them flared.If doing the flared there is a different hole size for the port based on a3/4"MDF cabinet with a 3/4" router round over bit.

Over all I think for the money these will more than put a smile on your face.

Al

[JonMarsh]

Nice comments and claims.


Got any FR plots or distortion data? On and off axis?

Thanks.

~Jon

[Gordon Moore]

Thanks Al

Tuning them to 100Hz is sort of preferred?

Following the stock instructions for the towers through CSS (which I just took a look at) is that tower going to be tuned to 100 hz?

[ThomasW]

Although there are several designs that are discussed at length on HT-Guide DIY forums, none of those are being sold as a product.

An accurate exchange of information is always somewhat problematic, when one has a financial interest in given product.

And it's particularily problematic when that design isn't available to audition, and only been on the market a limited time.

As a result the exchange of information becomes a "he said/she said" situation.

There's plenty of data both for and against, small so called 'wideband' drivers. And as with many things in audio the opinions regarding their performance are quite polarized.

That's why we encourage mfgrs/suppliers to utilize their own forums, as opposed to plying their wares here.

[RAW]

http://www.creativesound.ca/pdf/Spires.pdf

Here is a link to the data posted on the Spires as welll as the others in the series I designed.

The off axis I have not yet loaded but will send them to Bob to have them put in the PDF as well.I can not produce some of this stuff fast enough.
Just as noted about having my own forum.
In time ,I only dropped by as a customer noted that there was some comments about the design posted.
I stopped by just as anyother person would.
Danny of GR as well as others would as well, would stop and make a comment if his or her product was being talked about without question.
I have not posted wrong to promoto the product just say things to help clear the air.

Thanks for the understanding
Al
Raw Acoustics. :T

[ThomasW]

We've seen the pdf, Andrew posted it in his introductory post that started this thread. The plots are so small as to be virtually illegible. And since there is no info about the measurement equipment/test procedure, no off axis response, or power response/distortion information, the plots simply aren't very meaningful.

The primary issue with designers/retailers posting about their products is that most of the time it's not objective information. Statements such as

the 871 driver over a tweeter will walk over most tweeters costing up to $100.00.

Are meaningless unless backed up with data to support the claim.

BTW, Jon and I were in the audio business for a long time, and we continue to have close contacts in the industry to this day. As a result we certainly know what price points are and what's involved in bringing a product to market.

As for the suggestion that we shouldn't comment. I've designed, engineered, and built loudspeakers for more than 40 years. Jon's a younger lad, with only 35 yrs of speaker building experience. As a result we have a pretty good idea how a given system will perform. In addition we have access to about $250,000 worth of test gear/software, included in this is a $5000+ calibrated mic. So yes I believe we are qualified to comment.

The bottom line is that no one 'wins' in this situation. We comment and give our opinion. You comment and give yours. The buyer is forced to separate what data is important to him; and he's doing that in the abstract, since the speakers aren't available for audition. That's the primary reason why threads like this tend to be counterproductive and frequently breed ill will.

BTW there are numerous places on the web where one can open forum at no charge and share info about their products. Yahoo 'groups' is one such place.

Regards,
Thomas

[DeanP]

Andrew:
What are you using as a centre channel?

What do you guys think of the Audax ht projects?
Shown here at Solen.ca Audax ht speakers

[RAW]

Shot using MLSSA ,Earthworks Mic and Pre Amp.

And there is demo pairs out for those wanting to demo them as shown on the other link I provided.
As well anytime some one asks they are welcome to stop by and have a free in home demo at my place.



Al

[Gordon Moore]

Andrew:
What are you using as a centre channel?

What do you guys think of the Audax ht projects?
Shown here at Solen.ca Audax ht speakers

I believe Andrew is using a M8a for a center.

[JonMarsh]

What was the sampling window for your MLS measurement? The hump in the 200-300 Hz area and roll off below is typical of running out of data in the LF area because the sampling window is too short to resolve LF data.

This is a valid choice to make if you're measuring in a small room, and want to avoid early reflections which will "contaminate" the midrange/HF measurement, but then it's a good idea to truncate the scale, lest one get the plot is valid in the lower frquency ranges.

The same effect can be seen in this graph here,





where the lowest usable frequency of resolution is 200 Hz.


Regards,

Jon

[taz13]

Gordon
I have built and been listening to the Spires for a few months now and I absolutly love the sound. In nearfield(<10'-15') they have a great sound stage, imaging and detail. In the farfield (>15') the sound stage is still good, imaging is good and detail is great. They need a sub for HT use but I still listen to them in 2ch mode on a Sony str-de585 and dvp-ns315 when playing any vocal based listening. But with a sub that is x'd-over properly with the spires, the sound is very easy and comfortable to listen to. What I am most impressed with is the detail that can heard. If interested it would probably be fairly easy to make arraignments for you to try the CC and rears( same as mains but only 22" tall).

My object when I ordered the Spires was to put together a HT system that would have a small footprint and do a very good job for under $1000.00 Canadian complete and ready to play. I didn't quite hit my mark but it was only the pst and gst that did my budget in. And I have the fun of building tweaking a system that I very much enjoy listening to. And for those who like loud, without any problem and lots of headroom on a Quest model208 SPL meter, the spires play quite well at 99db no sub 105 with subs in circuit. This measured at ear level in listening position about 10' from the speakers.
Rick

[Gordon Moore]

Well thanks for the input.

I did go a different route and I ordered a center speaker from fluance as a low cost solution. The idea is to then have a low cost upgrade path through them. I'm pretty hapy with their center and it wasn't much dough so that's the direction I decided to take instead.

(and boo's and hiss's echo throughout the DIY'rs.... :B )

[Andrew Pratt]

Hi Rick :later: nice to have some other Manitoban's on the board:T

[Hank]

Oh Lordy, I shouldn't get involved, but...
Folks, Jon and Thomas are very experienced pros and I would turn to them to design a high-end system before anyone on the 'net. Now I've said it. With that, Al and Danny, with their speaker "businesses", are about offering budget value kits. Apples and Oranges, folks. Don't mix and don't compare. J&T are the most generous guys on the audio 'net - they design and share with us newbies, motivated by the love of good sound, or more precisely, to get the reproduction of live music a tad closer to the live production. Al and Danny, personality and technical disagreements aside are in business to make a iving for their families. They are not charlatains (white vans in their driveways?) as far as I can tell. Danny's A/V-3 is the best dual purpose HT/Music value I've heard (I've built both versions), BUT I have not heard them all.
Personally, I'm waiting for J&T to get around to finishing the line source they've been toying with for quite a while - I may build 'em for me.
This all depends on what stage in your life you are economically/audiophilally(no charge for the new word ). If I were a young man with a couple of kids and a very limited budget and 90% of my listening were movies, I'd go for a budget kit and be happy for a few years. THEN, I'd turn to those gentlemen J&T for a kick-ass musically accurate design!
Gordon, it's your money. One thing for sure: listen to the speakers you're considering, hopefully side-by-side listening.

I don't get kickbacks from Al or Danny. AAMOF, I've given up on the cabinet building business. I haven't received any orders over the 'net. My sales have been to a very few local customers. That's fine, since my job has gotten much more financially responsible for my employer and it's taking a lot out of me, although not as much as Jon's job is eating him up. :W
Thanks for letting me ramble. I do my 2 Hz worth to try to keep all this stuff friendly. Conflict awaits us out there in the real world, so let's be gentlemen in the world of audio/video 'net.

[Ten 99]

Hank is about as nice of a gentleman as I've met. He was gracious enough to invite me over to his pad about two years ago, so I could have a listen to his DIY Tempest sub. The sub was very good in it's ability. I was also impressed by Hank's ability on his towers. He did such a remarkable job on them, beautiful rosewood. It was Hank that put the spark in my mind about what a person could actually achieve with some patience.

Since then, I've been addicted to reading about what others have done, and learning the techniques that others have used.

I'm very thankfull for people like Hank. I'm also very thankful for J&T. I'm not certain yet which project of theirs I'm going to attempt for mains. I'm thinking it'll be the M8aTA's. I think for a center channel, it'll have to be the MTM on it's side (unless they whip out a cross-over and mid driver for a 3-way on it's side). One things for certain, this is the road I'll venture down in the not too distant future.

[Hank]

Chris, thanks for the kind words. Tomorrow night at Chad and Pelan's there's a movie night. What's special about it is that it is a huge dedicated home theater that they built themselves. I helped a tad and had fun. There's a proscenium, a stage with a ton (literally) of sand between the joists, acoustic absortion on the screen wall and up three around the sides of the room, columns, sconces, a painted sky ceiling complete with milky way, R/C equipment rack, beautiful carpet, raised second seating row, and behind the back row, a narrow counter behind which are bar stools, then a cabinet with fridge and popcorn machine on top. It is first class and could be in a magazine, yet it's DIY! You should experience it. If you're interested, check out our Austin Movie Nights thread on the hometheaterforum site. Also, there's an Austin HT tour on the 26th, and although it's full, you can get on a waiting list if you'd like - check out the Austin June HT tour thread.
You might want to see my new GR A/V-3's - best cabinet finish I've done yet (rosewood, of course). Later.