The Finalists Mid Woofer substitute?

[danman1]

Has anyone found a new driver that works as well as the original design?

Or.. has there been a change that anyone knows of in the design of the crossovers that will work with changing out the NE149W-04 for the 8 ohm version since the 4 ohm is not available?

Hopefully Jim or Curt can chime in?

Thanks in advance,
Dan

[JonMarsh]

You'd be much better off getting advice and updates from Jim and Curt, but I might point out that the situation is not exactly hopeless if you need to build that design or update/repair an existing set.


First, the NE149W-04 looks like this, data wise on an infinite baffle...

It is known for a relatively smooth, extended response, and a sexy looking cast frame structure and Neo magnet...




BTW, you can probably still get this from an OEM distributor like Digikey as long as you'll pony up for 500 pieces... minimum build.


After talking with ET a bit, he suggested this part from Faital, which he's investigated for three way applications:




This is a high power handling pro midrange driver intended for line array applications:





It does not have a sexy small Neo magnet... but it does have a high power handling.





But the SPL response and impedance curve are very promising, very similar in level and general contour, though there are areas the Faital is flatter (1kHz to 2kHz), and other areas the NE149 is a bit smoother (200-600Hz). The impedance curve of the Faital (not shown here) would benefit from an R-C zobel to lower the impedance at frequencies above 3kHz to match the NE149W-04





But I expect Curt or Jim will have a classier solution up their sleeves than Evil Twin's suggestion...

[Jim Holtz]

Has anyone found a new driver that works as well as the original design?

Or.. has there been a change that anyone knows of in the design of the crossovers that will work with changing out the NE149W-04 for the 8 ohm version since the 4 ohm is not available?

Hopefully Jim or Curt can chime in?

Thanks in advance,
Dan

Hi Dan,

The Finalist have been declared officially NLA due to driver availability issues. The replacements which out perform and simply offer better detail and realism compared to the Finalists are the Travelers and are available through Meniscus as a kit. The travelers are a significant step up in sound quality and are based on the Finalist cabinet with driver size adjustments.

Curt and I have been extremely frustrated with driver availability and running production changes with a couple of our designs so we've decided to work with Meniscus to insure parts quality/availability will allow the speaker to perform as designed when built.

HTH

Jim

[Jonasz]

Nice Jim!
That looks like an excellent combination of drivers. The Hiquphone tweeters are superb and deserves to be used more.

[Jim Holtz]

Nice Jim!
That looks like an excellent combination of drivers. The Hiquphone tweeters are superb and deserves to be used more.

Thanks Jonasz!

We used OW2's which worked out to be a perfect match with the SB15CAC mids. I'm in love with the CAC drivers. Extremely low distortion, super clean and natural sounding. They have far exceeded my expectations. I 1st used Hiquphone OW3's in 2002 in several builds then drifted over to ribbons. Dave Ellis (Hiquphone US distributor) was active in the DIY community then and we became audio friends. I saw him at a 2018 DIY event and it made me decide to use them again. I'm glad I did.

Jim

[dwk]

Thanks Jonasz!

We used OW2's which worked out to be a perfect match with the SB15CAC mids. I'm in love with the CAC drivers. Extremely low distortion, super clean and natural sounding. They have far exceeded my expectations. I 1st used Hiquphone OW3's in 2002 in several builds then drifted over to ribbons. Dave Ellis (Hiquphone US distributor) was active in the DIY community then and we became audio friends. I saw him at a 2018 DIY event and it made me decide to use them again. I'm glad I did.

Jim

Have you directly compared the CAC to the NBAC? Looking at the datasheets, they sure look to be effectively identical in performance, but 'everyone' seems to talk about how great the CAC drivers are specifically while you don't see much about the non-ceramic versions. I can't quite get on board with the aesthetics of the white drivers and so the NBAC is more attractive.
I have the SB15NBAC on hand for prototyping but am moving slowly - if the Textreme Satori deliver as it looks like they should, they may be a step up from the CAC/NBAC, but otherwise there really doesn't seem to be anything to complain about.

[Jim Holtz]

Have you directly compared the CAC to the NBAC? Looking at the datasheets, they sure look to be effectively identical in performance, but 'everyone' seems to talk about how great the CAC drivers are specifically while you don't see much about the non-ceramic versions. I can't quite get on board with the aesthetics of the white drivers and so the NBAC is more attractive.
I have the SB15NBAC on hand for prototyping but am moving slowly - if the Textreme Satori deliver as it looks like they should, they may be a step up from the CAC/NBAC, but otherwise there really doesn't seem to be anything to complain about.

I've only compared VBAC to CAC by ear so nothing scientific. I've heard both in designs at various DIY events and I preferred the CAC each time. FWIW, Bo (SB Sales manager) was at the Meniscus DIY last fall and stated the two drivers are very close together in sound quality but the CAC was slightly better. He also stated everything Satori was a step up from the CAC line. I've not always walked away from listening sessions with that impression but different designers and different crossovers make a big difference.

I'm attaching distortion measurements for the SB15CAC's we used in the Travelers.

HTH

Jim

[danman1]

Thanks for the quick reply!

[ATTACH=CONFIG]30103[/ATTACH]

Hi Dan,

The Finalist have been declared officially NLA due to driver availability issues. The replacements which out perform and simply offer better detail and realism compared to the Finalists are the Travelers and are available through Meniscus as a kit. The travelers are a significant step up in sound quality and are based on the Finalist cabinet with driver size adjustments.

Curt and I have been extremely frustrated with driver availability and running production changes with a couple of our designs so we've decided to work with Meniscus to insure parts quality/availability will allow the speaker to perform as designed when built.

HTH

Jim

Thank you Jim,

I am not sure if you ever saw the final pictures of the statements that I built. I'll try to post them here.

So.. I guess my thoughts were to possibly dismantle the drivers from the statements and use the woofer and tweeter for a down sized speaker that has great sound and help save on the costs (Statements won't work for my area any more).

I went right to the finalists and thought they would be perfect to do what I intended. But... of course the mid woofer issue.



So in a nut shell that's what my thoughts were. I think I can get the same mid base in a 4"-4ohm version. .. (Of course I have the 4"-8ohm version in the statements) but then everything gets thrown off...

If I have to start over with new mids, and tweets to do the project.. well that's also what I have to work out.


Thanks again for your quick response!

Hope all is well, and great to hear from you!!!

Dan

[Jim Holtz]

Hi Dan,

It's too bad you can't use the Statements, they are really pretty. You did a great job.

I can't comment on what you have in mind since it'll require major crossover changes. I can recommend the Travelers though. I think you'd like them a lot.

Jim

[danman1]

Thanks so much! Yea, the Statements were my first and a really enjoyable challenge! They also got me hooked! haha.
I may just have to sell them. Then move on to the next challenge. :W
Lot's of options, but on the good side... It can be soooo rewarding to build something and hear the results after you are done!

Is there a BOM and crossover design for the Travelers? or is this a kit only sell through Meniscus? I actually already had materials bought and boxes started for the Finalists before I realized the mid base wasn't available. You have my curiosity on these..


Dan

[Jim Holtz]

Thanks so much! Yea, the Statements were my first and a really enjoyable challenge! They also got me hooked! haha.
I may just have to sell them. Then move on to the next challenge. :W
Lot's of options, but on the good side... It can be soooo rewarding to build something and hear the results after you are done!

Is there a BOM and crossover design for the Travelers? or is this a kit only sell through Meniscus? I actually already had materials bought and boxes started for the Finalists before I realized the mid base wasn't available. You have my curiosity on these..


Dan

Hi Dan,

The Travelers and Bordeaux are only available through Meniscus. However, Mark will work with you and make the kit fit your needs. He's quite flexible. The only difference in the Finalists vs Travelers cabinet is the cutout for the tweeter and no closed back option. Since you also have the woofers if you choose to part your Statements out, I suspect Mark would supply what you don't have. His parts prices are the same as the other guys.

Jim

[Supernova]

Jim,
Could those SB Acoustics SB15CAC30 be used in the Statment II's? I know they're not drop but I'm curious. I haven't started my build yet. If yes would curt be willing to modify the crossover?

Peter

[Jim Holtz]

Jim,
Could those SB Acoustics SB15CAC30 be used in the Statment II's? I know they're not drop but I'm curious. I haven't started my build yet. If yes would curt be willing to modify the crossover?

Peter

Hi Peter,

The SB15CAC's would require a complete redesign of the cabinet mid tunnels and the crossover. The tunnels would need to be exchanged for PVC or rebuilt larger to allow the mids to breath. I can't speak for Curt but I can tell you he only develops crossovers on speakers he has in house, not just sims. I can also tell you he's got three other projects on his plate right now and I'm number three.

I love the sound of the CAC mids but I also love the sound of the NE123's. They both have excellent detail and clarity. I do prefer the CAC's and they would be great in a new design but I would not suggest a mid project conversion on the Statement II's.

Just my thoughts....

Jim

[Supernova]

Hi Peter,

The SB15CAC's would require a complete redesign of the cabinet mid tunnels and the crossover. The tunnels would need to be exchanged for PVC or rebuilt larger to allow the mids to breath. I can't speak for Curt but I can tell you he only develops crossovers on speakers he has in house, not just sims. I can also tell you he's got three other projects on his plate right now and I'm number three.

I love the sound of the CAC mids but I also love the sound of the NE123's. They both have excellent detail and clarity. I do prefer the CAC's and they would be great in a new design but I would not suggest a mid project conversion on the Statement II's.

Just my thoughts....

Jim

Thanks Jim.

I may build my Statement II's in the modular fashion like the Bordeaux's. They should have been built years ago but life's been busy. Do you think there will be an issue in doing that?

[Jim Holtz]

Thanks Jim.

I may build my Statement II's in the modular fashion like the Bordeaux's. They should have been built years ago but life's been busy. Do you think there will be an issue in doing that?

Hi Peter,

I'm assuming a driver configuration if you do a modular format of WW-MTM. This shouldn't be a problem. Many people have built in that format rather than the WMTMW as designed and have been very happy with the results. However, Curt and I have never heard or measured the revised cabinet design so we can't "officially" give a seal of approval. That said, based on builder feedback, it should be fine.

A follow up to your previous question regarding using SBCAC drivers instead of NE123's, I honestly think you'll be very happy with the sound quality of the NE123's. They are extremely low distortion and clean sounding that only the best paper drivers have. The CAC drivers are also super low distortion and clean but lean more to an Accuton flavor but with more warmth than the Accutons. Both drivers are home runs, IMHO.

Personal opinion only....

Jim

[Supernova]

Dan

What did you decide to do? Those cabinets are beautiful. You did an amazing job.

Cheers

Peter

[danman1]

Dan

What did you decide to do? Those cabinets are beautiful. You did an amazing job.

Cheers

Peter

I am still trying to figure it out.. been really busy with work lately. Ughh!
I really would like to use the original Woofer, Mid-base 4", and the tweeter from the Statements build to do a similar "Finalist" build. I have one cabinet built and found out that the Finalist used a 5.25" mid-base instead. (What was I thinking!) lol.

So, with that in mind.. I am trying to work on the crossovers to figure out if this is a workable speaker design

[danman1]

I may just have to go for the travelers build here. I can adjust the size of the mid-base to fit the new one. (The front is not glued on to the box, so I can also go by the specs and move the mid base up to match the design.
Jim, you say that the difference between the finalists and travelers are just the tweeter... So is the crossover network the same for both?

Thanks in advance,
Dan

[Jim Holtz]

I may just have to go for the travelers build here. I can adjust the size of the mid-base to fit the new one. (The front is not glued on to the box, so I can also go by the specs and move the mid base up to match the design.
Jim, you say that the difference between the finalists and travelers are just the tweeter... So is the crossover network the same for both?

Thanks in advance,
Dan

Hi Dan,

The only similarities between the Travelers and Finalists are the RS225 woofer and cabinet. The mid and tweeter are different and does require a different crossover. Both are open back mid designs so no reworking is necessary beyond cutout/recess size adjustment for the mid and tweeter. The crossover and build plans are part of a kit offered through Meniscus.

The Travelers are a definitely a step up in sound quality over the Finalists if high quality music recordings are important to you.

Jim

[Mikerodrig27]

The mid is supposed to best the Bordeaux which is a very expensive kit. It seems like it would be a nice upgrade to change over to the Travelers.

[danman1]

I agree! This may be the road I have to take. Getting the fever again! 😊. I am also interested in the solstice kit at PE.
I can change the fronts on the boxes I have already made very easily to accommodate The travelers though.

[danman1]

I wish people would do more high definition audio 4 the speakers that they build. Talk is one thing but let me hear them!