Natalie P Owners - Which Preamp\Dac\Amp are you using?

[Exocer]

Hi all!

My Natalie P's are probably 12-13 years old at this point and while I have auditioned other speakers in the $3-5k range, I am in no hurry to "upgrade" although curiosity may get me to do some in-home demos at some point... Very happy with these speakers for HT and 2-Channel listening and they've only improved with my other incremental component upgrades over the years.

I currently own a Marantz Av7704 with Rogue Audio ST-100. The sound is excellent, streaming Tidal via HEOS but I'm looking to take things to the next level with 2-Channel Music playback.

What do you guys run with your Natalie P's?

Below are some options I've considered, across various price ranges...

My current top Preamp/Dac contendors are:

1. Parasound P6 + Node 2i or Creative CXN v2
2. PS Audio Stellar Gain + same options above
3. MiniDSP SHD

Also considering saving up more and going with separates:

Preamps:
1. Rogue Audio RP-7 (Used)
2. Rogue Audio RP-5 (Used)
3. Schiit Freya+
4. Anthen STR Preamp - (I am also interested in other Solid State options)
5. Primaluna Dialogue Premium

DACs:
1. Schiit yyaggy
2. Primaluna Evo 100 DAC
3. Audio Mirror Tubadour III

Node 2i or Creative CXN v2 coaxial out to the above DAC.

If this is the wrong place to ask this question I will gladly delete this post or have it moved

Thanks!

-Rob

[Exocer]

Also thought I would share, just two days ago, I re-capped the tweeter section with Auricap XOs. The previous caps were ClarityCap SAs. I notice improved transparency, imaging and widened soundstage. Obviously this could all be placebo but... My wife also mentioned the speakers sounded REALLY good but couldnt explain what was better\different about them lol.

[morbo]

I would use the Minidsp SHD out of that list, though I'm not familiar with option #1. Partly because of it's impressive functionality, but foremost because it performs well:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/f...cell-dac.9273/ #2

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/f...streamer.4286/ #3

[Exocer]

Thank you Morbo. This unit is high up on my list due to the excellent measurements and overall value. I just wish it had HT Bypass. I guess any ol' analog input could be used as this way anyway....

What are using @ home?

[morbo]

I have modula MTs as mains, so not quite nat p's, but close enough to your setup that the setups are comparable.

I am using a NAD t758. You can see from the review on the same site, that it performs rather poorly in terms of amp section and DAC performance... par for the course for low-mid level AVRs, but I certainly was surprised to see it, since NAD is allegedly so focused on sound quality first etc etc. Disappointing to be sure. That being said; it's the cheapest way to get Dirac room correction on all channels in a home theater (I have a full atmos 11.2 setup). I try to make the best of it by using outboard amps for all but the atmos channels, but down the line I do plan to replace it with a better AVR or pre/pro - once I can find one that will apply Dirac to all channels and perform *demonstrably* better at a pricepoint that I can stomach. On my budget, the NAD AVR was a stretch, so dropping 3x as much for an Arcam or comparable prepro is going to be a stretch. I also must admit that while I trust the measurements, I certainly can't hear any obvious issues with the setup, and it is head and shoulders above previous Denon, Yamaha, and Pioneer Elite AVRs I've had in the same setup. I attribute this entirely to the superior room correction - I don't want to belabour the point, but Dirac really does make a very big difference, particularly for HT.

So, I am hesitant to say it because the objective performance is not as good than the options you presented; but if HT is a priority, I think the 758 can be a viable option provided a) you use outboard amps for critical channels and b) you stay out of the ~ -6db to 0db volume range where thing really go downhill performance wise. Another option might be the equivalent Arcam; it also will have dirac and while I haven't seen measurements, I'm hopeful it would be better. I would say it would be a lateral move from your Marantz in terms of DAC/Amp performance, but the room correction is much better, and IMO that difference swamps the difference in going from a decent to great DAC.

If, on the other hand, you only need 7.1 or less; you could also consider using a Nanoavr-HD to do room correction/bass management/EQ on PCM sent over HDMI from 2 sources of your choice, into a multichannel prepro of your choice that can accept PCM over HDMI. This opens lots of good used options - basically any older lexicon, arcam, anthem, rotel, etc prepro that supports HDMI 1.3 or higher. If I had not already invested in, and developed a taste for, the atmos setup, this is probably what I would do.

[Exocer]

Morbo,
Thank you! I also have a working pair of Modula MTs with pre 2008 RS28A tweeters. I usually swap them for the Natalie Ps every once in a while to switch things up. I've switched my Natalie P RS28As for the RS28Fs some time ago and I am very happy that I did... But I digress. Oh, I also upgraded the Natalie P tweeter section to AuriCap XOs. I feel this was very worthwhile )coming from clarity Cap SAs.

Getting back on topic now... I live in an apartment so I don't have the space for more than 2.2 channels. The subs stay off for music and I rarely use them at the same time. The subwoofer is a Rythmik Audio F12.

My ultimate goal is to experience the benefits of a better DAC and Preamp with 2-Channel listening. With that in mind, I looked into various combinations of separates and I've decided anything I get will need to come with room correction (Audyssey XT32 greatly improved everything in my room, with windows directly across from the speakers).

I saw the measurements you speak of...that site is the reason I removed the Stellar Gain from my shortlist. I'm glad you did not let the measurements interfere with the enjoyment of your system!

Considering I want to keep my amp, these are my current two top contenders:

1. NAD C658 - (No measurements available)
2. MiniDSP SHD - I really wish it had HT Bypass but I can do without.

I can always try a better dedicated pre amp down the road..

[Evil Twin]

My general experience, as the designer, is that the NataleP will scale well over a large range of electronics, particularly if you built a larger enclosure version with extended low frequency range.

You are wise to consider the high pass crossover capacitors carefully, as they can have a considerable impact or limitation on the benefit of other upgrades.


My best equipment is in storage in the outer rim, but here I have a more modest setup suitable (on purpose) for the development of new designs in this size class- this is the first product of those efforts







Denafrips Hestia

https://www.denafrips.com/hestia-hyperion

Benchmark HPA4

https://benchmarkmedia.com/products/hpa4

The Benchmark HPA4 is also a headphone amplifier; it's gain structures are optimized to work with amplifiers requiring higher input voltages, such as professional level, and maintaining a higher than usual Ss/N ratio and very low measurable distortion.

Both of these are used in balanced mode.



Both DACs are R2R ladder DACs at different price points:


Soekris Engineering DAC1541

http://www.soekris.dk/dac1541.html

Denafrips Terminator

https://www.denafrips.com/terminator

These R2R ladder DACs, as compared with the common delta-sigma multi-bit DACs, have a denser, more tonally complete midrange and truer articulation of transients, in my opinion. With re-clocking of the digital inputs via a Mutec MC3+ on AES-EBU, or with a re-clocked I2S input, the Terminator approaches the performance of my reference TotalDAC D1 balanced.


Power amps in the local facility are relatively budget oriented, but suited to the power level needed for development activities for smaller systems:


Denafrips Hyperion, 80W per channel

http://https://www.denafrips.com/hestia-hyperion


NAD M22, 200W/channel

https://nadelectronics.com/product/m22-stereo-power-amplifier/

Interesting relative to this discussion, there is a design study underway to determine the feasibility of newer implementations of the Modula and NatalieP concept, but only if the design updates under consideration can result in significant improvements in transparency and lower distortion, especially above 150Hz, where the ear is more sensitive. And of course, without throwing money in imperial quantities at the design...

There are promising early driver tests, but much more work needs to be done. Initial testing is being readied for the MT configuration, with test cabinet construction close to completion.

This is not to be confused with the system shown above, which is a more expensive MT configuration. This is a higher performance alternative, but it comes at a price.

[ergo]

Both DACs are R2R ladder DACs at different price points:


Soekris Engineering DAC1541

http://www.soekris.dk/dac1541.html

Denafrips Terminator

https://www.denafrips.com/terminator

These R2R ladder DACs, as compared with the common delta-sigma multi-bit DACs, have a denser, more tonally complete midrange and truer articulation of transients, in my opinion. With re-clocking of the digital inputs via a Mutec MC3+ on AES-EBU, or with a re-clocked I2S input, the Terminator approaches the performance of my reference TotalDAC D1 balanced.

Jon, if you happen to have time at some point (wishful thinking I know) then it would be very interesting to hear your take on the Soekris dac1101 / Soekris dac1541 and Denafrips Terminator. How do you rate the two latter against the dac1101. I have the dac1101 and I've built a DIY DAC with dam1021, but Soekris now has one more DIY kit dam1941 which is R2R DAC wise basically identical to the dac1541. Trying to figure out if it would make sense to go for another DIY build. If Denafrips Terminator beats all of the Soekris ones with a 10%+ margin then maybe I should try to save up for that instead. This one is a bit more reachable than TotalDAC which is for sure out of my price class.

Also that Denafrips Hestia looks like an interesting unit. That one and the Schiit Freya S or Freya + seem like good commercial balanced pre-s in reasonable price range.

My Purifi class-D amp modules are on the way already, so now brains are working on all sorts of ideas how to upgrade the DAC-pre to a matching quality level too

[morbo]

Jon, if you happen to have time at some point (wishful thinking I know) then it would be very interesting to hear your take on the Soekris dac1101 / Soekris dac1541 and Denafrips Terminator. How do you rate the two latter against the dac1101. I have the dac1101 and I've built a DIY DAC with dam1021, but Soekris now has one more DIY kit dam1941 which is R2R DAC wise basically identical to the dac1541. Trying to figure out if it would make sense to go for another DIY build. If Denafrips Terminator beats all of the Soekris ones with a 10%+ margin then maybe I should try to save up for that instead. This one is a bit more reachable than TotalDAC which is for sure out of my price class.

Also that Denafrips Hestia looks like an interesting unit. That one and the Schiit Freya S or Freya + seem like good commercial balanced pre-s in reasonable price range.

My Purifi class-D amp modules are on the way already, so now brains are working on all sorts of ideas how to upgrade the DAC-pre to a matching quality level too

Ergo, I'm the furthest thing from a DAC expert, but presumably you have seen this: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/f...ibit-dac.3956/

I'll leave the interpretation of the data to others.

[morbo]

Morbo,
Thank you! I also have a working pair of Modula MTs with pre 2008 RS28A tweeters. I usually swap them for the Natalie Ps every once in a while to switch things up. I've switched my Natalie P RS28As for the RS28Fs some time ago and I am very happy that I did... But I digress. Oh, I also upgraded the Natalie P tweeter section to AuriCap XOs. I feel this was very worthwhile )coming from clarity Cap SAs.

Getting back on topic now... I live in an apartment so I don't have the space for more than 2.2 channels. The subs stay off for music and I rarely use them at the same time. The subwoofer is a Rythmik Audio F12.

My ultimate goal is to experience the benefits of a better DAC and Preamp with 2-Channel listening. With that in mind, I looked into various combinations of separates and I've decided anything I get will need to come with room correction (Audyssey XT32 greatly improved everything in my room, with windows directly across from the speakers).

I saw the measurements you speak of...that site is the reason I removed the Stellar Gain from my shortlist. I'm glad you did not let the measurements interfere with the enjoyment of your system!

Considering I want to keep my amp, these are my current two top contenders:

1. NAD C658 - (No measurements available)
2. MiniDSP SHD - I really wish it had HT Bypass but I can do without.

I can always try a better dedicated pre amp down the road..

Funny, we have similar systems! My mains are Modula MT (seas tweeter) and dual Rythmik DIY kits

If you are only doing 2.2, I admit I don't understand the need for HT bypass? Would you not just have all your sources downmix to PCM and output to a common pre/pro like the SHD? If so, the SHD is IMHO the best choice by far, you will have unmatched flexibility around crossover and response shaping between your subs and natP.

[dwk]

Funny, we have similar systems! My mains are Modula MT (seas tweeter) and dual Rythmik DIY kits

If you are only doing 2.2, I admit I don't understand the need for HT bypass? Would you not just have all your sources downmix to PCM and output to a common pre/pro like the SHD? If so, the SHD is IMHO the best choice by far, you will have unmatched flexibility around crossover and response shaping between your subs and natP.

I agree with this - if all you're interested in is 2.2, what exactly is it that the SHD can't handle? Set up one preset for music with the subs off, and a 2nd preset with the subs on. I'm not entirely sure how Dirac will integrate with that, though - I think you can only have a single global dirac filter which is just switchable On/Off, which means it may not be optimal for both music and HT given that the subs and woofers would likely need different correction. I'm not aware of any product on the lower-ish end that supports multiple room correction filters though so you're likely facing the same problem with any solution - maybe some of the standalone Audyssey or Trinov units do. (Disclaimer - I have an SHD but I only took it out of the box yesterday and haven't actually set it up yet, so the details of Dirac aren't clear to me)

[morbo]

I agree with this - if all you're interested in is 2.2, what exactly is it that the SHD can't handle? Set up one preset for music with the subs off, and a 2nd preset with the subs on. I'm not entirely sure how Dirac will integrate with that, though - I think you can only have a single global dirac filter which is just switchable On/Off, which means it may not be optimal for both music and HT given that the subs and woofers would likely need different correction. I'm not aware of any product on the lower-ish end that supports multiple room correction filters though so you're likely facing the same problem with any solution - maybe some of the standalone Audyssey or Trinov units do. (Disclaimer - I have an SHD but I only took it out of the box yesterday and haven't actually set it up yet, so the details of Dirac aren't clear to me)

At least on my AVR, Dirac filters exist for each channel independently (including LFE), ahead of bass management/XO. So I have my mains EQed flat to 1 octave below the crossover frequency, and my sub EQed flat to 1 octave above. Then my AVR applies a 24db/oct symmetrical XO for bass management. But, if I turn this off and set my mains to 'large', the dirac curve for the mains is the same, just no highpass applied. I would expect the SHD is the same, but have only experience with dirac on the AVR, and minidsp software on a nanoavr without Dirac. Assuming the SHD has the same setup as my Nanoavr though, bass management is a separate section from the crossover/delay/eq section, so I'd be surprised it if was different.

[Exocer]

My general experience, as the designer, is that the NataleP will scale well over a large range of electronics, particularly if you built a larger enclosure version with extended low frequency range.

You are wise to consider the high pass crossover capacitors carefully, as they can have a considerable impact or limitation on the benefit of other upgrades.


My best equipment is in storage in the outer rim, but here I have a more modest setup suitable (on purpose) for the development of new designs in this size class- this is the first product of those efforts




Denafrips Hestia

https://www.denafrips.com/hestia-hyperion

Benchmark HPA4

https://benchmarkmedia.com/products/hpa4

The Benchmark HPA4 is also a headphone amplifier; it's gain structures are optimized to work with amplifiers requiring higher input voltages, such as professional level, and maintaining a higher than usual Ss/N ratio and very low measurable distortion.

Both of these are used in balanced mode.



Both DACs are R2R ladder DACs at different price points:


Soekris Engineering DAC1541

http://www.soekris.dk/dac1541.html

Denafrips Terminator

https://www.denafrips.com/terminator

These R2R ladder DACs, as compared with the common delta-sigma multi-bit DACs, have a denser, more tonally complete midrange and truer articulation of transients, in my opinion. With re-clocking of the digital inputs via a Mutec MC3+ on AES-EBU, or with a re-clocked I2S input, the Terminator approaches the performance of my reference TotalDAC D1 balanced.


Power amps in the local facility are relatively budget oriented, but suited to the power level needed for development activities for smaller systems:


Denafrips Hyperion, 80W per channel

http://https://www.denafrips.com/hestia-hyperion


NAD M22, 200W/channel

https://nadelectronics.com/product/m22-stereo-power-amplifier/

Interesting relative to this discussion, there is a design study underway to determine the feasibility of newer implementations of the Modula and NatalieP concept, but only if the design updates under consideration can result in significant improvements in transparency and lower distortion, especially above 150Hz, where the ear is more sensitive. And of course, without throwing money in imperial quantities at the design...

There are promising early driver tests, but much more work needs to be done. Initial testing is being readied for the MT configuration, with test cabinet construction close to completion.

This is not to be confused with the system shown above, which is a more expensive MT configuration. This is a higher performance alternative, but it comes at a price.

First of all, Jon, thank you so much for these designs! My initial interest in DIY came about after hearing an expensive B&W system at my sister's house. Such expensive speakers were out of my price range at the time so I set out to DIY a high quality pair for what I could afford. Little did I know I would still be using them (multiple crossover upgrades and components later) 13 + years later!

Many thanks for your input above. I now have plenty of other options to consider.

Since my original post I hae upped my budget a bit and am looking at maybe purchasing the Anthem STR Pre (I want to keep my Marantz and use HT Bypass). The Teac NT-505 was at the top of my list as far as streamers go. There are nothing but glowing reviews for this piece of kit. My ONLY gripe with it is the lack of digital outs, so the streamer is tied to the internal DAC indefinitely. One bonus of the STR is room correction. My room is acoustically horrible....Audyssey has done WONDERS for sound in this room and I simply cannot do without correction at this point (due to lack of a dedicated space). STR offers ARC.

If I go with another a Parasound P6 (less expensive with the HT Bypass simplicity) I could theoretically go with something like a MiniDSP SHD Studio with Coaxial out to my Topping DX7s (currently in my possession in desktop duty) to the Parasound. This seems a bit complex though but at it would check all the boxes:

1. HT Bypass\Passthrough
2. Better Pre-amp than my Marantz Av 7704
3. Streaming and MQA capability (for what that's worth)
4. Respectable DAC (DX7S measured well, and the TEAC would be good as well)
5. Subwoofer integration for when I want to go LOW

Evil Twin,
Super excited about the new designs... In the meantime I have stocked up on replacement parts for the good ol' originals

Cheers! Back to my research.

-Rob

[Exocer]

Funny, we have similar systems! My mains are Modula MT (seas tweeter) and dual Rythmik DIY kits

If you are only doing 2.2, I admit I don't understand the need for HT bypass? Would you not just have all your sources downmix to PCM and output to a common pre/pro like the SHD? If so, the SHD is IMHO the best choice by far, you will have unmatched flexibility around crossover and response shaping between your subs and natP.

I left out the part where I need HT Bypass because this is also my main TV viewing system as well. So, I need the HDMI switching from the pre\pro for up to 4 HDMI sources. The pre\pro is admittedly overkill for my application in terms of how many channels it can handle.

The perfect solution would be a high quality 2 channel pre with HDMI switching, streaming, and room correction. I couldn't possible care less for HT codecs at this point. Another fact is that my wife is familiar with the current setup so I would like to keep things familiar while taking 2-channel music listening away from the Pre\Pro.

[Exocer]

I agree with this - if all you're interested in is 2.2, what exactly is it that the SHD can't handle? Set up one preset for music with the subs off, and a 2nd preset with the subs on. I'm not entirely sure how Dirac will integrate with that, though - I think you can only have a single global dirac filter which is just switchable On/Off, which means it may not be optimal for both music and HT given that the subs and woofers would likely need different correction. I'm not aware of any product on the lower-ish end that supports multiple room correction filters though so you're likely facing the same problem with any solution - maybe some of the standalone Audyssey or Trinov units do. (Disclaimer - I have an SHD but I only took it out of the box yesterday and haven't actually set it up yet, so the details of Dirac aren't clear to me)

Valid points!

Audyssey is dialed in perfectly as-is and I would prefer to pass that through as-is, untouched. Hence my interest in the Anthem STR... as it will apparently pass-through not only L and R but subwoofers untouched via the bypass inputs.

Very interested in hearing more about your SHD experience!

[Exocer]

Brief Update - I got a deal on a 2nd hand Wyred4Sound STP-SE Preamp with Stage 2 upgrade.

I performed the following tests using my topping DX7S:

1. Tidal on PC with USB out > Topping DX7S Unbalanced out > Marantz AV7704 balanced out to the Rogue ST-100 and unbalanced to sub input. Marantz sounded best in PureDirect. (No Sub)

2. Tidal on PC with USB out > Topping DX7S balanced out > Rogue ST-100 (No Sub)

3. Heos on Marantz to Tidal with balanced out > Rogue ST-100 (My standard setup)

I don't know if it was placebo or what but Option 1 was the clear winner. Surprisingly, removing the Marantz from the signal chain in preamp duty did not result in a more enjoyable sound. I ensured all room correction was disabled and that the Natalie Ps were set to large in all of the above tests. The sound was smoother, more musical with improved soundstage and more extended high frequencies.

My wife described option 1 as sounding more live, with higher fidelity than option 3. She said something was "off" with test 2 but couldn't describe why.

Another interesting observation:

2-Channel without room correction when using the Topping DX7S as the DAC and Marantz AV7704 as a preamp sounded substantially better than HEOS streaming from the Marantz without room correction (Audyssey disabled). I am seriously questioning limiting myself to solution with room correct based on these results.

My interim setup will be streaming from my Laptop with DX7S the DAC through the Wyred4Sound STP-SE 2 preamp with balances XLR to the preamp and also from the preamp to the amp. Will report back once it arrives.

Cheers,
-Rob

[lcolbur1]

Quick hijack here: I am also building the Nat Ps and am trying to figure out how to power them. I'd like to try and keep things relatively simple and use an integrated amp. Would an Emotiva TA-100 (A/B class; 50 watts RMS per channel into 8 Ohms; 90 watts RMS per channel into 4 Ohms), or a Dayton Audio APA102BT (D class; 2 x 60 watts RMS into 8 ohms; 2 x 80 watts RMS into 4 ohms) work? Would these sound noticeably different from using a designated amp that can provide with more power?

[morbo]

One thing that may help your decision: I went from an Audessy MultiEQ XT 32 AVR (denon) to a Dirac Live AVR (Nad 758). The NAD is likely worse in terms of measured performance, both the amp and the dac sections. However, the NAD with Dirac is a clear step up from the Denon with Audyssey. I bought the NAD with the intention of returning it if the difference was subtle, and it wasn't, to my ears. The biggest difference was in matching different speakers to each other, but the imaging and subjective bass 'tightness' in 2.2 channel playback improved as well.

I am firmly of the belief that room treatment and correction make a far bigger difference than marginal improvements DAC/AMP upgrades; at least once those are at a baseline sufficient level. I'm not saying they aren't worth addressing, just that there's a lot more improvement to be had with correction.

[morbo]

Quick hijack here: I am also building the Nat Ps and am trying to figure out how to power them. I'd like to try and keep things relatively simple and use an integrated amp. Would an Emotiva TA-100 (A/B class; 50 watts RMS per channel into 8 Ohms; 90 watts RMS per channel into 4 Ohms), or a Dayton Audio APA102BT (D class; 2 x 60 watts RMS into 8 ohms; 2 x 80 watts RMS into 4 ohms) work? Would these sound noticeably different from using a designated amp that can provide with more power?

I would take the emotiva over the dayton; I'm skeptical of the low cost chinese class d amps until I see measurements of a specific model. Some are good, most are not great. In most cases a used, known quantity class AB from the likes of Rotel or Cambridge Audio is a much safer bet. I have successfully powered the Modula MT with as little as 50wpc, but they do come alive if you can give them 100-150w of power from something with good current reserves.

[MikePM]

In the spirit of DIY, have you thought about the Hypex NC 400 mono kits for amplification? Audio Science Review indicated they tested exceptionally well.

I am in a similar boat as you. I built the Zaph all metal some 15 years ago, and a few years ago built one of the Selah audio kits, the Fedele. My main room uses a Marantz SR7008, but I recently had problems with the vintage Yamaha running my analog system. I have been considering the AVA SET 400 amp along with the Odyssey Stratos since I have been a little afraid to go class D. The Hypex, however, hits that DIY bone and is supposed to be significantly better than older versions. Matching this with a Freya +, or AVA tube pre-amp seems like it could make an excellent analog system. My digital source is a bluesound node in one system and an audoquest dragonfly in the other. I use the node's coaxial out to the Marantz since the receiver converts most analog back to digital for processing which makes using the node's DAC excessive.

[ergo]

NC400 might be a very good option. In https://www.audiohobby.eu the price is 275EUR without tax ( aah and same on https://www.diyclassd.com now), so price has dropped sometime in recent months as it used to be something like 100 more per module. I guess IcePower, Purifi and other competitors are forcing the price down finally.

[lcolbur1]

I would take the emotiva over the dayton; I'm skeptical of the low cost chinese class d amps until I see measurements of a specific model. Some are good, most are not great. In most cases a used, known quantity class AB from the likes of Rotel or Cambridge Audio is a much safer bet. I have successfully powered the Modula MT with as little as 50wpc, but they do come alive if you can give them 100-150w of power from something with good current reserves.

Thanks for the inputs. How would an amp that provides 50W @ 8ohms and 90W @ 4ohms compare to an amp that can produce 125W @ 8ohms and 185W @ 4ohms for these speakers specifically? Would there be any discernible sounding difference? How do you even determine how much power these speakers require given their 88dB sensitively? Is it just a matter of how loud you can play them vs distortion at a given volume? If so, how loud could I play them on amp 1 vs amp 2?

[ergo]

https://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

the jump from 50W to 125W is some 4dB in SPL according to the above site calculation

[lcolbur1]

https://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html
the jump from 50W to 125W is some 4dB in SPL according to the above site calculation

This is excellent! Thank you. So, if I plan to do average listening in my small apartment living room (~76 dB), then I shouldn't need to power them with the 125W amp, correct? It looks like the 50W amp should more than suffice.

[ergo]

The numbers above would be max SPL while the 76dB would the the average. The difference between the max and average depends on the music style, but yes even for jazz and such it should be enough. You can get some idea from this page

http://dr.loudness-war.info

it lists the Dynamic Range for many CD-s of different styles. Especially with pop/rock you'll find that the peak will be actually just a few dB above the average. With Jazz more and with classical music probably the most.

[Exocer]

I'm okay with the hijack! Excellent topic.

I have powered my Natalie Ps with the following amps:

Beringer EP1500
Onkyo M-504
Pioneer VSX 1121
Rogue Audio ST-100

My room is a decent size and I find that the Rogue ST-100 in Triode mode (good for approximately 50-60 watts) can go louder than I would ever need it to go with the Natalie P's.

[wkhanna]

Quick hijack here: I am also building the Nat Ps and am trying to figure out how to power them.

Nelson Pass likes to say, "its all about the 1st watt", and he is not wrong.
you dont always need a ton of power to get good sound.
but the better the 1st watt (low distortion) the better the sound.
any amp spends the vast majority of time putting out less than two watts.
it is transients and low frequency that typically gain benefit from having the extra power (headroom) available.
and the NatP's will most definitely allow the benefits to be heard.

The numbers above would be max SPL while the 76dB would the the average. The difference between the max and average depends on the music style, but yes even for jazz and such it should be enough. You can get some idea from this page

http://dr.loudness-war.info

it lists the Dynamic Range for many CD-s of different styles. Especially with pop/rock you'll find that the peak will be actually just a few dB above the average. With Jazz more and with classical music probably the most.

this is an excellent source of information on the quality of recordings.
i have been using it for many many years and it has often saved me from spending good money on bad product.

Hi all!

My Natalie P's are probably 12-13 years old at this point and while I have auditioned other speakers in the $3-5k range, I am in no hurry to "upgrade" although curiosity may get me to do some in-home demos at some point... Very happy with these speakers for HT and 2-Channel listening and they've only improved with my other incremental component upgrades over the years.

I currently own a Marantz Av7704 with Rogue Audio ST-100. The sound is excellent, streaming Tidal via HEOS but I'm looking to take things to the next level with 2-Channel Music playback.

What do you guys run with your Natalie P's?

..........

-Rob

Hi, Rob!

i built my Nat-P's in 2006 & still use them today.
in fact, i still have yet to upgrade the tweeters with the ScanSpeak Revelator D2904/7100-03's i bought years ago.
reason is, i am still in love with their sound.

i have heard a lot of other speakers, well over a hundred, since building these.
i go to as many brick & mortar audio shops as i possibly can along with going to the shows like Capital Audiofest, Rocky Mountain Audio Fest, New York Audio Show and AXPONA.

the only speakers i would consider that would still 'fit' in my listing space would be the old Joseph Audio Pulsar, a set of The Maestro's Ardents, or the fully refurbished and heavily modified Quad ESL from Kent at Electrostatic Solutions.
the Nat P's are just so smooth while being so accurate there are so few other speakers that compare.
and if they do, the price is just ridiculous.

these speakers have kept up with every electronics upgrade i have made over those many years, as well.
i started out with a Cambridge audio CD player and Rotel RBX980.
these days, things are quite different with a highly modified Carver C-19 that was re-worked by Bob Carver himself, my self-modified Gungnir DAC and majorly modified Rotel 1090 amp.

i can easily recommend Soekris 1541 or 1421 r2r DAC along with most Schiit DAC's.
for amplification, aside from our Maestro, Dr Marsh's recommendations, i have found excellent value & quality from the Monoprice Monolith and the Odyssey Khartago

bottom line is, regardless of what you use to feed your Nat P's, rest assured you will be getting all that your other equipment has to deliver both now & in the future as your system matures.

LINK to my build thread

[crazyjpeters]

I’m just a fledgling and just run my NatP’s on my Yamaha RX-V1. I have yet to even build a center and surrounds for them.

[Exocer]

Wow wkhanna, thank you! I also built my pair back in 06'!

Very nice setup you have!

I'm shocked at what these speakers do with the combination of:

Rogue Audio ST-100
Wyred4Sound STP-SE stage 2
Topping DX7S DAC (this is my desktop dac in stereo duty)

The preamp + DAC are a substantial improvement over the Marantz AV7704. I no longer feel that EQ is a must in this room although I am planning to install some heavy curtains for the windows.

I was actually looking at R2R AND multibit DACs to try something new:

Soekris
Denafrips Pontus or Ares II
Schitt Yyaggy
Holo Spring KTE

I will be making the purchase soon and keep you all posted on the comparison between the Delta Sigma sound and R2R NOS sound with these speakers.

I'm blown away at how much a dedicated pre/DAC improve 2 channel listening...

Cheers!

[MikePM]

I've been frequenting this forum only sporadically since I last built a pair of speakers a few years ago, and just noticed lcolbur1 was building a new pair of Nat. P's. Is the cabinet from scratch or is a parts express pre-built?

I always assumed part of the Nat. P and Modula's popularity was due to their being built in Parts Express cabinets. Since they do not appear to be available at Parts Express, does anyone know if there is another source? I've been assured that knock down cabinets and/or woodworking is not hard or is great fun, but I really don't want to take up the woodworking aspect of this hobby.

[lcolbur1]

I've been frequenting this forum only sporadically since I last built a pair of speakers a few years ago, and just noticed lcolbur1 was building a new pair of Nat. P's. Is the cabinet from scratch or is a parts express pre-built?

I always assumed part of the Nat. P and Modula's popularity was due to their being built in Parts Express cabinets. Since they do not appear to be available at Parts Express, does anyone know if there is another source? I've been assured that knock down cabinets and/or woodworking is not hard or is great fun, but I really don't want to take up the woodworking aspect of this hobby.

I build my speaker cabinets from scratch since I have access to the tools/materials and just enough wood-working skills and time to get by. My Nat Ps will be curved and incorporate a few CNC'ed parts from MDF. Hoping to have them finished soon and will be sure to post my progress in pictures on HTguide. As for COTS cabinets, as far as I know Part-express makes the only ones, as the Nat P's were designed for them. I'll defer to Mr. Marsh though.

[Exocer]

Brief update:

It is great to see that the Natalie Ps have scaled well with everyone's equipment over the years .

Wkhanna, I will be taking delivery of a Schiit Yggdrasil A2 soon and will report back. I've also decided to try moving away from USB and use AES via the PI2AES Raspberry Pi HAT (a very good value apparently).

As for measurements from Audio Science review, I am trying not to base by DAC selections solely on the SINAD chart. The Topping DX7S measures better but I'll let my ears make the final decision 😉.

Other top contenders were:

Holo Spring 2 KTE
Soekris 1541
Metrum Onyx
Sonnet Morpheus

For now, I believe my chain is complete. Until the next upgrade bug hits...

May consider replacing the Dayton midrange caps with Jantzen superior z's when budget allows.

Cheers,
-Rob

[Exocer]

The Yggdrasil and Natalie P get along very well! Much more texture and resolution compared to the DX7S only after a few hours of listening.

[mlw]

I built some tower ModulaMTM's about a dozen years ago.
I like my Khadas Tone Board - check its measurements on the DAC SINAD chart, there are a lot of dacs under it, and can't beat the price.
My current pre-amp - amp choices are:
A Schitt Vali 2 with a Genalex Tube into a 3e-audio TPA3251 board w 36v supply.
or just finished building a DiyAudio Pass B1-Korg Nutube preamp and F6 amp (fabulous).
Collecting parts for a J2 (clone).
Michael

[Exocer]

Mlw, thanks for your input. Sounds like you have an an interesting project underway. Do let us know how it all goes together.

Here is my modest Natalie P build, made of Red Oak ply.