Suggestions / advice on surrounds...

[CADman_ks]

I currently have Klipsch KG2's as my mains, and they are the only thing I have. I'm wanting to get into the 5.1, and I also have a Klipsch Synergy S3 as a center. I'm building a sub, so I have that covered.

As much as I would like to consider building new mains, and repurposing the KG2's as my surrounds, that's not really practical in my current room. I just don't have the space at the back of the room for them.

I would like to build some surrounds that would match with this whole miss-mash of a system that I have. . So, the questions are this:. What is a good small monitor/surround project that would play nice with this collection of speakers, and still be fairly small with my limited space constraints? Or, does that not really matter a lot, and I should just build something that fits in my space? Or, is all if this crazy and a waste of money, and I should build an integrated system???

Thanks

[TEK]

Hmm, from what I’m finding out - your current mains are at least 26 years old...
I think we betyer start out by getting a bit more information about the rest of the system, your room, your listening preferences and what kind of money you are thinking about spending.

What are the rest of your equipment? Do you have a multichannel receiver that enables you to match the level on each channel? Or are you planning on getting one? I’m asking because if you do not it will be very important to have speakers with correct level. If you have it should not ve that important as you can adjust the level on the receiver.

How big are your room, and how load do you like to play?
Do you have a budget? If so, what range are we talking about?
What are you listening preferances?

[CADman_ks]

First off, let me say THANK YOU for the input, and you're absolutely correct that I should have told you more about what I have and what my plans are.

So, here goes with my specs at this point:

• The room is approx 17' x 20' (5.2m x 6.1m), however, it does have one end open
• I don't have a lot of space on the "back" wall of this room to place my surrounds, so they need to be somewhat smallish
• I'm wanting to get into home theater, but I don't want to brake the bank doing it at this point
• I would say that my "budget" is somewhere around $1000 max for all of the stuff that I need

Hmm, from what I’m finding out - your current mains are at least 26 years old...
I think we betyer start out by getting a bit more information about the rest of the system, your room, your listening preferences and what kind of money you are thinking about spending. ...

Point well taken about the Klipsch's being 31! years old. However, they still sound great, as great as Klipsch's can sound, because you hate them or love them, so I'm not really worried too much about them. They are bright speakers, and always have been, so they definitely need some bass help. They have spent their entire life in a climate controlled environment, so to me, they still sound as good as they did on day one. As for my listening preferences, I don't listen to a lot of music on this system anymore, but would still like to be able to do that if needed. I'm trying to relegate what I have to the home theater setup. As a point of reference, tonight I put some on Boston (the first CD), and I was able to comfortably get the room to 80dB. I do NOT have any intentions of listening to movies at that level, or should I say listen to movies at that level for prolonged periods of time, so I think that the KG2's should suffice for now as mains.

... What are the rest of your equipment? Do you have a multichannel receiver that enables you to match the level on each channel? Or are you planning on getting one? I’m asking because if you do not it will be very important to have speakers with correct level. If you have it should not ve that important as you can adjust the level on the receiver....

Yes, I have a multichannel 7.1 receiver, and it has the ability to match the level on each channel, so I should be good there. It is not new enough to have HDMI inputs, but that's not necessarily a show stopper for me at this point. It's an older Yamaha unit.

At the end of the day, my thoughts are this:

• build a 12" powered subwoofer, maybe even one with passive radiators, like these PE kits. This should help on music and most importantly, help on theater stuff
• build something like Paul Carmoday's Speedsters as my surrounds. I've always wanted to have speakers with ribbon tweeters, and these are small enough that they should foot the bill
• Use the Klipsch Synergy C1 (I had the wrong speaker in my OP) as the center. Seems to work well, and sounds "good" with the other KG2's

All thoughts / criticisms welcome, so fire away...

[fbov]

Modern drivers benefit from far more sophisticated engineering methods than were available to Klipsch in the days your KG2s were developed. You will eventually learn to love the new ones, so build really good ones. You may not realize you've started a life-long process of listening, learning and upgrading based on what you've learned, until it sounds really good.

Think in terms of "this year's budget" and "first year goals" then listen, learn, and upgrade next year with a new budget.

Have fun,
Frank

[TEK]

Your current speakers are quite small (bookshelf), and I think there is more to save on large speakers when going the DIY route.
Based on this I would imagine that for you the bedt solution would be to build a pair of full-size mains and move your current front speakers back and use them as surround.
For now I would just keep the center as center - but it might be a bit challinging to get it to blend in with new mains.

You say that you have a 7 channel receiver. Can you bridge two of the channels so hhar you can use 4-channels to drive your DIY mains an the other 3 to drive the surrounds and center?
And how mutch power are your amp? Thats good to know so you can evaluate if you need high efficient speakers or not.
Alternativly - can you bypass the internal amps so that you may add a new amp for your mains if thats show to be nesssarly.

So, what do you think? May you consider going full size mains and put the KG2 as surrounds?

[CADman_ks]

Keep the advice coming! You guys are making me rethink my entire strategy to a point...

Modern drivers benefit from far more sophisticated engineering methods than were available to Klipsch in the days your KG2s were developed. You will eventually learn to love the new ones, so build really good ones. You may not realize you've started a life-long process of listening, learning and upgrading based on what you've learned, until it sounds really good.

Think in terms of "this year's budget" and "first year goals" then listen, learn, and upgrade next year with a new budget.
...

I understand that drivers and technologies have changed in 31 years, but my mains are still working pretty good at this point, and I really hate to throw them out, even though they may not end up being my end mains.

Your current speakers are quite small (bookshelf), and I think there is more to save on large speakers when going the DIY route.
Based on this I would imagine that for you the bedt solution would be to build a pair of full-size mains and move your current front speakers back and use them as surround.
For now I would just keep the center as center - but it might be a bit challinging to get it to blend in with new mains.

You say that you have a 7 channel receiver. Can you bridge two of the channels so hhar you can use 4-channels to drive your DIY mains an the other 3 to drive the surrounds and center?
And how mutch power are your amp? Thats good to know so you can evaluate if you need high efficient speakers or not.
Alternativly - can you bypass the internal amps so that you may add a new amp for your mains if thats show to be nesssarly.

So, what do you think? May you consider going full size mains and put the KG2 as surrounds?

TEK, there is no way that the KG2's are bookshelf speakers. They are pretty good sized. Like 13" wide X 12" deep x 18" high, and they each weigh 25 pounds, so they are not slouches by any means. The big issue that I have with them is that I just simply do not have the room for them as my surrounds, and that's why I wanted to start with surrounds, and then if I needed/wanted new mains in the future, I would replace the KG2s. I do not know if my amp is bridgeable. I am fairly new to the more than 2 channel stereo setup, so I'm not quite for sure that I understand what that does for me in the end, even if my receiver was bridgeable.

In the end, the thing that you guys have made me reconsider is my end-game choice for mains. I've always thought that if I was going to build new mains, I would probably build Statements, or MiniStatements (probably the latter). With that philosophy in mind, maybe it makes sense for me to consider making MicroStatements for my surrounds, since they have my obligatory ribbon tweeter, and then if I ever decide to build mains, I just build the Statement of choice to match. Then, if I still need a center channel speaker, there's a statement center channel speaker as well.

In the end, the part that you guys are making me think about is this: if I build surround speakers as my FIRST speakers, I need to build something that will match down the road, and the Speedsters wouldn't allow me to do that, even though I still believe that they are really good speakers, or at least all the reviews indicate they are...

[CADman_ks]

I just re-read the Statement and Mini Statement builds, and I knew that there was something about the Statements that would be an issue, and that is the 18" away from the wall. I just don't have that kind of space in my room. They would stick out way to far in the room, and the WAF would be NO...

[TEK]

there is no way that the KG2's are bookshelf speakers

Just for my curiosity.

These are the speskers you have today?

https://www.klipsch.com/products/kg-2

«The two-way KG Series KG 2 bookshelf loudspeaker was first introduced in 1982 and manufactured by Klipsch until 1992.»
Or are the different configuration/versions?

This is really not that important, but what is important is what size you think you have room for.
Are in-wall an option for you?

About matching speakers - my point of view is that it is not that important to match rear speakers to the rest of the system -sound wise.
That’s more important between the mains and the center.
When it comes to the waf-factor thats a different issue, but with DIY we are more talking colors and finish, and there you are free tonchoose.
You are coming back to your lack of space for rear speakers - however your room is not very small.
That’s getting me to wonder:
- how are the room layout (listening positions vs screen). Is there a couch placed all the way againstvthe back wall?
- have you considered other layouts?
- are you thinking floor-standing rears, on-wall or in-wall?
(my default for rear are on-wall)
- have you considered a more side based placement instead of rear based placement?
(take a look here on both 5.1 and 7.1 setups: https://www.dolby.com/us/en/guide/su...5-1-setup.html)

If you have your receiver model I can see what it can and cant do.
Briding will give you the option to give more power to your mains -and by that be able to drive heavier loads.

[TEK]

I just re-read the Statement and Mini Statement builds, and I knew that there was something about the Statements that would be an issue, and that is the 18" away from the wall. I just don't have that kind of space in my room. They would stick out way to far in the room, and the WAF would be NO...

I think that it might be that Jim may have some alernatives crossover tweaks for that.
He is/had been hanging out around here so you might pm him to get some input.
Many here has buildt some of his design.

I buildt in-khan-neatos as my front speakers, but a in-wall edition of them might be for you...

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?42662-Building-In-Khan-Neatos-for-the-living-room

[CADman_ks]

I think that it might be that Jim may have some alernatives crossover tweaks for that.
He is/had been hanging out around here so you might pm him to get some input.
Many here has buildt some of his design.
...]

I tried searching for near wall Statements, and I couldn't really find anything, but that doesn't mean that I was searching for the right words...

[CADman_ks]

Just for my curiosity.

These are the speskers you have today?

https://www.klipsch.com/products/kg-2

«The two-way KG Series KG 2 bookshelf loudspeaker was first introduced in 1982 and manufactured by Klipsch until 1992.»
Or are the different configuration/versions?

This is really not that important, but what is important is what size you think you have room for.
Are in-wall an option for you?

...

Yes, those are the speakers that I have, and maybe the term "bookshelf" comes from Klipsch, but I would personally not call them bookshelf speakers.

...

You are coming back to your lack of space for rear speakers - however your room is not very small.
That’s getting me to wonder:
- how are the room layout (listening positions vs screen). Is there a couch placed all the way againstvthe back wall? Yes, I have a couch placed against the back wall, and while it could be moved out some into the room, the wife will not go for that.
- have you considered other layouts? This room is a tough room to layout, and there are not really a lot of different options for laying it out. One wall has a fireplace on it, which would be the ideal wall for the "front" of the room, but the mantel and surround around the mantel do not allow a TV to be placed on that wall.
- are you thinking floor-standing rears, on-wall or in-wall? Floor standing, and in wall is not an option at all, for two reasons, my walls are 100% styrofoam (look up structurally insulated panel construction), and where there isn't wall, there's window.
(my default for rear are on-wall)
- have you considered a more side based placement instead of rear based placement? Yes, that is an option that I've consided, and may end up going that route, but there isn't a lot of room that way either, with all of the other furniture that's in there.
(take a look here on both 5.1 and 7.1 setups: https://www.dolby.com/us/en/guide/su...5-1-setup.html) Thanks for this. I'll look into this!

If you have your receiver model I can see what it can and cant do. I forgot to look up the model number, so I'll do that when I'm back home
Briding will give you the option to give more power to your mains -and by that be able to drive heavier loads.

[Jim Holtz]

The Finalists will allow closed back close wall positioning or open back positioning of 18" from the wall behind. They also sound very nice. Search for builder feed back and HERE is a recent review by a builder from another board that might be of help.

HTH

Jim

[TEK]

Basically what I hear you say is that you are looking for on-wall DIY speakers with a small footprint and high WAF (Wife Acceptancy Factor).
From what you describe they do need a small footprint - even if the otherwise have a high WAF.

In addition to that your end game is to at some time replace your current mains with something newer - but for now you are happy with the mains (and center) that you already have.
Also - you are not very interested in high volume level - so that sound pressure level is not that important.

I have to say that as long as your listening position has to be all the way into the back-wall (I guess you are listening/viewing from the sofa) you do have a challenge. Your mains will reflect the sound from the back wall - and your rears will not be behind you, so that's to bad. If that sofa of yours was further into the room I'm guite sure you would have a better listening experience (even just 50cm would do a lot)

But it is what it is - not all things can be fixed.

So, then it might be possible to find some DIY design that you could evaluate. As I mentioned, I do not think that it's very important to match rears to your fronts. But you may of course do it if you want to - it will however limit your choices.

Some options I found, but I'm sure there are many others as well:
The MicroStatements seems to fit: http://speakerdesignworks.com/MicroStatements_1.html
Probably to big for you, but mounted on the wall the footprint would not be that big: http://speakerdesignworks.com/StenIIproject_1.html
If you look into something like this you will get speakers with very little footprint. A bit more challing to build....: http://www.zaphaudio.com/audio-speaker20a.html
The in-kahn-neatos (I have built them) might be a option - but probably to big for your: https://www.divine-audio.com/in-khan-neatos/

You may take a look here: https://www.divine-audio.com/
and here of course: http://speakerdesignworks.com/index_page_2.html
or here: http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/speakers.html
or here: http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Diy_Lou...r_Projects.htm

[CADman_ks]

Basically what I hear you say is that you are looking for on-wall DIY speakers with a small footprint and high WAF (Wife Acceptancy Factor).
From what you describe they do need a small footprint - even if the otherwise have a high WAF.

In addition to that your end game is to at some time replace your current mains with something newer - but for now you are happy with the mains (and center) that you already have.
Also - you are not very interested in high volume level - so that sound pressure level is not that important.

I have to say that as long as your listening position has to be all the way into the back-wall (I guess you are listening/viewing from the sofa) you do have a challenge. Your mains will reflect the sound from the back wall - and your rears will not be behind you, so that's to bad. If that sofa of yours was further into the room I'm guite sure you would have a better listening experience (even just 50cm would do a lot)

But it is what it is - not all things can be fixed.

So, then it might be possible to find some DIY design that you could evaluate. As I mentioned, I do not think that it's very important to match rears to your fronts. But you may of course do it if you want to - it will however limit your choices.

Some options I found, but I'm sure there are many others as well:
The MicroStatements seems to fit: http://speakerdesignworks.com/MicroStatements_1.html
Probably to big for you, but mounted on the wall the footprint would not be that big: http://speakerdesignworks.com/StenIIproject_1.html
If you look into something like this you will get speakers with very little footprint. A bit more challing to build....: http://www.zaphaudio.com/audio-speaker20a.html
The in-kahn-neatos (I have built them) might be a option - but probably to big for your: https://www.divine-audio.com/in-khan-neatos/

You may take a look here: https://www.divine-audio.com/
and here of course: http://speakerdesignworks.com/index_page_2.html
or here: http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/speakers.html
or here: http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Diy_Lou...r_Projects.htm

Well, I'd have to say that your summation of my predicament is spot on.

My ultimate dilemma still lies in the fact that I would like to have/build/own a pair of speakers with ribbon tweeters. So, then, if I'm going to build surrounds that utilize a ribbon, I need to be long term thinking about what mains and center I would build that would have ribbons as well. That's where the Statement series comes in, but in my current room, I can't have them 18" off the wall. I have looked at most of the links that you provided extensively in the past, and have now looked at the ones that I haven't, but I have yet to find a "series" out there like the Statements.

I know that this wouldn't be ideal, and I probably shouldn't even talk this way, but I wish that I knew more about speaker design, sound scaping, and crossover design, so that I could figure out if, and if possible, how to build a Statement speaker that had a closed back on, or could be placed 6" from the wall, and still provide the same sound. At the end of the day, I'm pretty sure that's not even possible, but I know that it's not possible with the skills that I have.

Thanks again for all the help!!!

....sigh....

PS: One final thought, which makes this situation even more depressing in a way. This room layout that I'm having so many issues with?, was ultimately designed by ME! My wife found our home plan in a book, and we tweaked it to be the way that it is now. When I built the house (we even built it ourselves), I wasn't worried about the fireplace wall, because at the time, the only TV's that existed were CRT type TV's, and I couldn't see far enough into the future to realize that someday there were be 60" TV's that were only 1" thick. If I had known that when we built, I may have designed my fireplace differently, and or not even put one in, but that's all water under the bridge now...

[CADman_ks]

The Finalists will allow closed back close wall positioning or open back positioning of 18" from the wall behind. They also sound very nice. Search for builder feed back and HERE is a recent review by a builder from another board that might be of help.

HTH

Jim

Thanks for the reply Jim!

Ultimately, I really want a set of speakers with ribbon tweeters, and I would like to have a "series" of speakers that have an entire set of speakers all voiced the same, so that my entire system would someday be all matching.

[TEK]

18 inches is 48cm
I guess that is the back of the speaker?

I think it is time for you to start building the rears from the statement series - and while you do that you may start working on some creative thinking about how you will go ahead to be able to place the statements (I or II) where they need to be.

My statement here is that you are thinking to mutch inside your existing setup and that you need to start focusing on solutions - so that you can build what you really want to build - and that is quite clearly a full statement set :surround:

If you post some room layout drawing as well as some pictures then we migh even help you with some thinking outside the box - while you build your rears

[CADman_ks]

LOL ^^^

Yes, your advice of just dive into the Micro Statements for my surrounds, is about where I'm at as well at this point. And, then, if for some reason, I can't figure out the rest of the layout, I guess that I at least have ONE set of speakers in my collection that have ribbon tweeters.

Thanks again for all of your input!!! Very helpful!!

[TEK]

Inguess qwe will se a build thread here quite soon :P

[CADman_ks]

...

If you have your receiver model I can see what it can and cant do.
Briding will give you the option to give more power to your mains -and by that be able to drive heavier loads.

I finally got around to looking into my receiver.

It is a Yamaha RX-V659, which I realize is pretty old, but it seems to work pretty good. It has DSP built in for different sound stages...

[Jim Holtz]

I just realized you were going to use these for surrounds. Curt and Meniscus came up with a Statements Micro Monitor that is based on the Fountek ribbon and NE149's in a sealed cabinet that can be mounted on or near wall if you like. They're available as a kit from Meniscus.

HTH

Jim

[CADman_ks]

I just realized you were going to use these for surrounds. Curt and Meniscus came up with a Statements Micro Monitor that is based on the Fountek ribbon and NE149's in a sealed cabinet that can be mounted on or near wall if you like. They're available as a kit from Meniscus.

HTH

Jim

Yeah, it's a little bit confusing with all of the different Statement names and variants.

I went to Meniscus, and I could not find that kit listed. I sent them an email asking them what the deal was...

PS: I just went and checked again, searching for Micro and Statement, and I can't find it there...

[Jim Holtz]

I wasn't involved in that design. It's a kit Meniscus asked Curt to put together for them. Mark should respond soon with info.

Jim