Never Heard Horns. How Do They Sound?

[Solid7]

This question is really as simple as I've posited... Just want to know what a horn speaker compares to, sound wise...

Such a fascinating concept.

[cochinada]

It sounds very loud and metallic and at the same time very 'fast', at least to me.

[Face]

Just like any flush mounted driver, some sound fantastic, some awful.

But done right, they should be more dynamic and clearer.

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[Solid7]

In what particular areas do they shine?

If I wanted bass, would they be a good choice? (like a standalone subwoofer)

Are there hybrids that improve upon the "pure" concept?

Where can I hear one? I'd love to go to a listening room in a high end audio shop, if there's a place that's known for selling these. I'm in Seattle right now.

[5th element]

The trouble with saying 'horns' is that it's such a vast generalisation.

I don't have any experience with anything other than waveguides and tweeters, but these are horns nontheless. Nothing bad about them, in fact I prefer them to naked tweeters. Yeah they require more work to get right and I think that this might be the crux of them in general.

There's so much you can get wrong with a complex horn that you really need to know what you're doing to make sure that everything gels. I'd say that bass horns are the easier end of things to get right as the wavelengths down low are so large. The only thing you have to watch out for with bass horns is the potential delay/group delay, that they present with. Some DSP this away.

When it comes to horns that cover the midrange and treble range you can end up with some pretty gigantic devices with very long front to back length and these create issues within the Z plane and time aligning/phase alignment. Now in the audiophile world lots of manufacturers struggle to even make competent non-horn designs that I really wonder when it comes to audiophile horn designs. I do not think that you're going to get a good impression of what a decent horn system can do with many of them and would even go so far as to say that this probably holds true for the vast majority of DIY designs too.

Crossover design is absolutely crucial with horns and most don't seem up to the task.

As far as I know some horn profiles sound honky and some don't. Which these are I don't know (because horns aren't something I'm really interested in) but I remember reading about this in the past. This of course is referring to front loaded horns, usually with a compression driver behind it. These tend to be wide so as to provide directivity control lower down in frequency and to provide efficiency gains down there too. This is in contrast to some bass horns which are rather compact, but these are aiming for something else - mainly efficiency gains, the horn loading improving air coupling and giving increased output, they don't, however, control directivity.

So I suppose (in one way or another) you've got two different approaches, one is using horns simply to give you increased efficiency and the other is using them to provide directivity control.

Earl Geddes, Mr famous waveguide man, with his designs, uses them primarily for the latter. He is interested in providing directivity control to create loudspeakers that integrate very well with your average listening room and then to be very forgiving of differences in one persons idea of the perfect décor. The fact that there are efficiency gains along the way is just one benefit, an extremely nice benefit, but a benefit nontheless.

Others, such as a lot of the audiophile horns you see pictures of at hifi shows, only really seem interested in the efficiency side of things. Sort of a how loud can it go with as few a watts and how hard can we pin you to the wall with a tiny SET valve amp. These obviously have their niche but I would say they aren't going to be particularly high on absolute fidelity.

Geddes designs his speakers to be neutral and authentic to the original recording. Those other horns are more about providing you with a different kind of experience, perhaps a sensory thrill that you only get when neutrality goes out the window.

Really it's about designing to your needs and understanding what cons you're going to introduce (and how to deal with them effectively) while being able to make use of the pros.

[Alaric]

Others, such as a lot of the audiophile horns you see pictures of at hifi shows, only really seem interested in the efficiency side of things. Sort of a how loud can it go with as few a watts and how hard can we pin you to the wall with a tiny SET valve amp.

Probably the reason for the original Klipschorn and LaScala. The higher end amps of the day, like Marantz and McIntosh were tube powered. The distortion inherent in tube amps may also have attenuated the potential harshness, or "brassiness" of the horns. A cheap SS amp with budget horns is one of the most awful sounding combos I've ever heard. LOL. Think Bose, but without the dynamic range or well defined bass. :roflmao:

[Solid7]

OK, I already hate horns. How does the definition of transmission line fit in with the concept of horns?

[Face]

This has taken quite a turn, lol.

I've had poor experiences with deep, narrow angle horns, those have had the most "honkiness" to them to me.

At home I rotate between speakers with SEOS 8(") and SEOS 24(") waveguides. The smaller ones use a Scanspeak Be dome and the larger ones use a BMS coaxial compression driver. In my TV room I use SEOS 12 waveguides with compression drivers. All sound very clean and smooth, no "honk", harshness, etc...

Imaging is a little precise than your typical flush mounted driver speaker, but the sweet spot can be a bit smaller, too. This can help in rooms with poor acoustics, symmetry, etc...both of which describe my room.

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[Solid7]

Yes, my intention was to try out horns as a subwoofer, thinking that they'd be more forgiving in a room with odd characteristics. However, opinions here led me to research, which led me to the notion that possibly I really want a transmission line for a sub.

[Carl V]

Yes, my intention was to try out horns as a subwoofer, thinking that they'd be more forgiving in a room with odd characteristics. However, opinions here led me to research, which led me to the notion that possibly I really want a transmission line for a sub.

OH, you were just interested in
(horn)SUBWOOFERs and not Full Range Horns.
a whole different Kettle of fish.
Physics will play into this.
Whether FR or Sub Woofer....

The 'net will provide you many Rabbit holes to go down

[Solid7]

I don't really know how to ask questions, sometimes. LOL

I don't think I really like the concept of FR horns, but I want to always give something a fair chance, before dismissal. I'd still love to hear a good pair of horns. I'd also like to hear a subwoofer application of horns.

There's so much information on everything nowadays, but none of it really means much without context.

I've pretty much decided on a T/L or hybrid vented port sub. There's even disagreement and mayhem over the definition of those, also, so we'll see what happens. In the end, I don't want to be a soundwave snob. I just want an enjoyable build that sounds good in my ears. Nobody comes to my house, anyway.

[bvbellomo]

As others have said, this is too general, what if someone asked "I never heard a speaker, how do they sound?"

A horn raises efficiency by narrowing dispersion. Efficiency could be what you care most about (school PA system) or not matter at all (high power solid state amp in a small living room).

Narrow dispersion could be good or bad - IMO this is why ribbons sound so good. It cuts reflected sound from the room, especially higher frequencies, making things seem a little "clearer". But it can also cause problems where part of the room sounds better or different, or where higher frequencies don't blend with lower ones. Linkwitz has a lot of good reading on dispersion.

As with anything else, poor implementation of horns can lead to all kinds of different bad things, such as the 'honkiness' or 'PA style' sound associated with horns.

[fatmarley]

Heard some Acapella horns at a show and was quite surprised to hear vocals hanging in mid-air like they were floating.

My current speakers use top-of-the-range 18sound compression drivers crossed at 1600hz. They don't sound harsh or honky but they do sound very dynamic. I don't think they are as detailed as a good quality soft dome tweeter though.