Separate ways

[bvbellomo]

My wife and I have decided to end our marriage. I have thousands of things going through my head right now, but at least 1 is that I no longer need to worry about the size of my speakers. Budget, of course, will be very tight or non-existent for a few months at least - but beyond that, I should have more time, money and space than I could possibly want.

So if I were to build a HUGE 3 way (or 4 way or more), is going active a viable alternative? Could I just use something like a Behringer CX2310 (or competing brand or product) a nice plate amp, and 2 decent cheap amps for the woofer and tweeter? I have all the equipment to measure, and enjoy crossover design, but I look at the cost of parts, especially high quality parts, for sub-20Hz drivers and then I see these little < $100 complete crossovers.

Considering ScanSpeak's 13" inch subwoofer, the new Peerless, any of the Dayton products, and many others. I want high quality, low distortion, accurate drivers that play full range. While I listen loud, I don't listen at ear-splitting levels, and my equipment so far (high end Yamaha receiver, HSU MK3 sub) has been more than enough.

While I do want to build something big, I don't want a refrigerator. Something bigger than it optimal from an engineering standpoint is stupid. And if I could save front-to-back space, it would help. But I want something that stands on the floor and puts my tweeters at ear level.

[TEK]

With a lot of space you could also evaluate going for horn speakers :-)

It sound as if the Isiris is a bit out of your target - but if you like crossover design and a challange you could use that cabinet and some cheaper drivers.
Many people have buildt the statements - those are more budget range.
Here sre some other designs: http://speakerdesignworks.com/index_page_2.html

However, if you are looking to build your own from scratch then I guess you ate more interested in discussing drivers, volume and crossover points?

[bvbellomo]

Was the Isiris Avalon's or Jon's version of it? Is this active or passive crossover?

I don't want something like Statements, as I don't want to accomadate that distance from the wall. But using these as an example, I could swap out the crossover for a CX2310 and 3 amps, only 1 of which needs any power, and save a couple hundred dollars. Is this a viable alternative? Or just a case of the grass being greener on the other side of the fence?

[JonMarsh]

The Isiris is my re-interpretationof the Isis, on a somewhat more reasonable budget, but with higher performance woofers.

It's a passive design; it could be done active, but then would require DSP to get the optimum slopes and driver compensation. And DSP means multiple channels of high grade DACs, or you're not really doing it right for a high end speaker. I have an untested further update to the crossover, with an active bottom end ready to build, but all that stuff has been on hold due to GF's illness, and those speakers are actually in climate controlled storage in Idaho, as retiring there some day is the most likely path forward I see, and heck, storage there costs about 1/3 versus here in CA.

The Aurasound woofers are no longer available, but likely something from AE or even the RS315HF-4 might work fairly well; I need to do some analysis to see how that might work out. I think the Dayton is most promising, and if the mechanical data looks good, I might even retrofit. OTOH, the BOM cost is in a range that is a little pricey- (remember, diamond tweeters) about double the Wavecor Ardents.

That likely won't happen for a couple of months at least, unless I get some odd moments of spare time, because of the efforts involved with clearing all my stuff out of the house here, and helping the kids with that, too, getting it ready for listing for sale by April. With my current living circumstances, and with the cabinets in Idaho, working on them soon isn't likely. But getting test cabinet data and evaluating the crossover potential to use with the existing design is a distinct possibility...

Finishing the update to this design is something that I thought would likely happen in late 2018 or 2019, but I'm also now considering working 1-3 more years beyond 2018, for a variety of factors (greed, and personal reasons for staying in the Bay Area longer) - meeting my new manager for dinner tonight- we both live in Danville, which is rather convenient. More interesting is that when I was having the hip surgery, knowing GF's cancer, he offered to go grocery shopping for us if needed. Seems to be a gentleman and a scholar, if you know what I mean.

As Yoda would say, there are so many alternate reality paths right now the future cannot be seen clearly... :W

[Supernova]

Finishing the update to this design is something that I thought would likely happen in late 2018 or 2019, but I'm also now considering working 1-3 more years beyond 2018, for a variety of factors (greed, and personal reasons for staying in the Bay Area longer) - meeting my new manager for dinner tonight- we both live in Danville, which is rather convenient. More interesting is that when I was having the hip surgery, knowing GF's cancer, he offered to go grocery shopping for us if needed. Seems to be a gentleman and a scholar, if you know what I mean.

As Yoda would say, there are so many alternate reality paths right now the future cannot be seen clearly... :W

I grew up in the Bay Area and moving Colorado was one of the best decisions my wife has made. That being said, I miss the wonderful restaurants, but certainly not the traffic.

[bvbellomo]

The Isiris is my re-interpretationof the Isis, on a somewhat more reasonable budget, but with higher performance woofers.

It's a passive design; it could be done active, but then would require DSP to get the optimum slopes and driver compensation. And DSP means multiple channels of high grade DACs, or you're not really doing it right for a high end speaker. I have an untested further update to the crossover, with an active bottom end ready to build, but all that stuff has been on hold due to GF's illness, and those speakers are actually in climate controlled storage in Idaho, as retiring there some day is the most likely path forward I see, and heck, storage there costs about 1/3 versus here in CA.

The Aurasound woofers are no longer available, but likely something from AE or even the RS315HF-4 might work fairly well; I need to do some analysis to see how that might work out. I think the Dayton is most promising, and if the mechanical data looks good, I might even retrofit. OTOH, the BOM cost is in a range that is a little pricey- (remember, diamond tweeters) about double the Wavecor Ardents.

That likely won't happen for a couple of months at least, unless I get some odd moments of spare time, because of the efforts involved with clearing all my stuff out of the house here, and helping the kids with that, too, getting it ready for listing for sale by April. With my current living circumstances, and with the cabinets in Idaho, working on them soon isn't likely. But getting test cabinet data and evaluating the crossover potential to use with the existing design is a distinct possibility...

Finishing the update to this design is something that I thought would likely happen in late 2018 or 2019, but I'm also now considering working 1-3 more years beyond 2018, for a variety of factors (greed, and personal reasons for staying in the Bay Area longer) - meeting my new manager for dinner tonight- we both live in Danville, which is rather convenient. More interesting is that when I was having the hip surgery, knowing GF's cancer, he offered to go grocery shopping for us if needed. Seems to be a gentleman and a scholar, if you know what I mean.

As Yoda would say, there are so many alternate reality paths right now the future cannot be seen clearly... :W

I suppose this is the problem of not understanding active crossovers. From what you said, I assume an active crossover is operating on a digital signal? The I can go either digital or analog input, and would need a DAC after the crossover. I also assume this means you'd consider something like the CX2310 or slightly more expensive alternative a cheap toy with no place in a high end build.

Btw - what do you think of Linkwitz Orion's crossover? Obviously dated, and not exactly low cost, it is the best example of an active crossover I can find.

[Supernova]

@bvbellomo

I'm gathering minidsp is out of the equation? I have heard they don't measure particularly well where noise is concerned. I do know quite a few people use them as active crossovers.

[JonMarsh]

Yeah, the Linkwitz Orion crossover is a good example, and is fully analog and is custom designed and built to do the necessary additional EQ... you can get basic active analog crossovers which offer standard crossover slope combinations, but that doesn't have the flexibility or the right configurations- the Wavecor Ardent and the Isiris use a weird approach I developed that is kind of like a LR 3 (if such a thing existed, which it doesn't, because with time aligned drivers it won't summon properly- but with read drivers with time offsets typical of modern midrange and woofers, you can get things to work pretty nicely, with the right technique- there are some posts I've made about how that works.

So, no off the shelf solution at reasonable price- you could get a Metric Halo or LIO-8 to get close, and has pretty good DAC channels, but still... it would be easier just to build the passive crossover- The proposed newer version with active low end could work well with much smaller amp on the upper range, as it wouldn't be padding those drivers down.

[BobEllis]

My 2 bits on active crossovers:

I was a big fan, for most of the usual reasons - easy, fast and inexpensive if you already have enough decent quality amplifiers. I started analog, following Linkwitz' topology. Changing a resistor, even high quality Vishay Dale, is a lot cheaper than a Clarity Cap. Having never heard a system using high end caps, I couldn't imagine that they would make much of a difference. Then I got a MiniDSP and used it to make my small passive 2 ways (Zaph design with Seas Excel drivers) into the top end of a 3 way. I did not hear an insertion loss, and perhaps it was a little cleaner than letting my OPPO BDP-103 do the processing and send the bass to the sub. If Excel drivers can't resolve the difference could MiniDSP be a high end solution for a fully active system? Even Linkwitz suggested as much, offering a miniDSP filter for the Orion series.

Then I started building my Ardents. I'd originally thought to do them active, but Jon suggested two way active with mid-tweet passive. I started playing with the crossover simulation to see how much I could save eliminating the woofer to midrange crossover. Not so fast - there were far too many interactions to allow stripping out the low pass section of the midrange XO without messing up the high pass. Resigned to building Ardents as designed, and reading Jon's various musings on DACs I wondered if it could really be something I could hear. I bought a Schiit Modi Multibit as my entry into the standalone DAC world. I instantly heard a significant improvement compared to several built in DACs in my collection. Even with lower resolution speakers the improvement remained. That DAC found its way onto Jon's bench, where it didn't measure particularly well. http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthr...-Modi-Multibit I eventually purchased a Cambridge Audion 851D and use that as my 2 channel preamp. Inserting the MiniDSP now noticeably reduces detail, even in passthrough mode. MiniDSP's AD/DA conversion is better than a lot of integrated DACs.

In summary, as Jon suggests, if you go active, use analog crossovers that follow Linkwitz' topology/building blocks which allows flattening driver response and adjusting phase unlike most commercial units. Linkwitz uses OPA-2134s in his crossovers, as did I. I haven't done a comparison with other op amps, but there are many said to sound better and be suitable for crossover use. Depending on your budget and system goals MiniDSP may be suitable, but higher system resolution is possible with a good DAC.

And treat yourself to some good caps, at least in your tweeter section. Replacing the GE surplus caps in the above 2 way with Clarity MRs made a huge difference in resolution. I had some left over from my Ardent build when the values changed adjusting for the -02 woofer. They changed to cabinet tuning a little since they are so big.

[bvbellomo]

So if I am looking for either cheaper or easier, active is not the way to go. If I can justify the time to build an Orion style crossover, I will get better performance and cost is negligible compared to time involved. But I can't buy something off the shelf for less than the cost of the most expensive caps and coils in my crossover just to save money and expect the same performance.

I haven't had a chance to play with anything better than the Dayton caps. I can't commit to anything, after a year of designing the most aesthetically pleasing cabinets, my crossovers have been sitting on my living room floor with wires sticking out for the next year, so I can make quick changes, most of which don't make a big difference. For me, it is easier to justify a $600 woofer I am certain I will use than a $26 cap I might change later. If my home situation were better, it would be long past time to take a few final measurements and tweeks, buy higher end parts, and do final assembly.

[BobEllis]

If, like me you've had an amplifier building habit and have amps, then active becomes more attractive. These days, at the start of your journey I'd say go with a MiniDSP. It'll get you listening a lot sooner than building an active crossover and can do all the things you need it to do. Enclosures that look good aren't inexpensive once you start building your own. Linkwitz may still sell his ASP boards - much easier than building on a prototype board or designing your own. The LIO-8 goes for $2300, plus the DSP software and a Mac to run it.

I know the difficulty justifying trying expensive caps. When you've settled on values with inexpensive caps, consider upgrading.

I don't thing measuring has been mentioned. While you may find something pleasing by ear, accurate is another story. MiniDSP has a mike available that should do a decent job.

[oneplustwo]

May I ask what your room is like? When you mentioned trying to save front to back space, I immediately thought you might be interested in something similar to the Murphy Corner Line array or something like my project. It's very dependent on the room, but it's actually a pretty simple concept at a high level.

Even if your room isn't like mine, it may work for you. Just a thought... happy to answer any questions. It was a daunting a long road for me, but it's really not as hard as it may appear.

[bvbellomo]

As I said, I am getting divorced. If I keep house, I will remarry and buy a new one.

The current room as about 14x13 with a 10 foot ceiling and the listener in the middle of the room.

If I can't find a women with shared interests or who tolerates mine, at least I can say I had the speakers before we met.

[Zvu]

What kind of a woman would ask of you to deny your passion if she loves you ? It is one of those little signs that tells you "you shouldn't marry this one".

I mean, after one marriage that didn't work i'd be looking for a kindred soul to spend my life with that can understand me - not asking me to obey and negate my passion. For what reason, feng shui?

[bvbellomo]

Plenty of those signs, and easy to see things wouldn't work looking back. But to be fair, I have a lot of passions.

[JonMarsh]

But to be fair, I have a lot of passions.

That sounds so familiar... and for people that don't, we're hard to understand or to tolerate living with, when they want a more simple ordered life.

[JonMarsh]

I grew up in the Bay Area and moving Colorado was one of the best decisions my wife has made. That being said, I miss the wonderful restaurants, but certainly not the traffic.

I lived in Colorado from 72 through 1986, so I completely understand your viewpoint on this- Bravo to your wife, and to you for listening to her.

The Boise area reminds me of Colorado 40 years ago, so from that you can see my attraction to it. Even so, there is a growing emotional anchor in the Bay Area which may force me to consider dual residences when I finally do establish my Fortress of Solitude in the frozen wastes of Western Idaho some day... where summer temperatures rarely rise above 95F (too hot for some of the delicate flowers of the SF Bay Area...) :W

Life is strange, by turns challenging and rewarding.

And so far, as regards the new manager, my assessment is: Exceeds Expectations.


this is very welcome news from my perspective... there are some real challenges ahead, but also a lot of unexpected potential upside, that I never saw coming a few months ago...

[Zvu]

....But to be fair, I have a lot of passions.

Having many passions is positive. It means that your perception of the world around you is enhanced and you enjoy certain aspects of it more then usual. I enjoy hi-fi, diving, cycling, biology, psychology, reading, plum brandy, good espresso coffee and barbecue - non of this is threatening my wife and kids, my health (i'm not greedy) or financially - in which case i'd stop before someone had the opportunity to say that i should do something about it. And the door are open for everyone who wants to join me (besides my kids that are 2 and 0.7 years old so no coffee or brandy for them, sorry ). If not, that's fine toо. My wife enjoys most of the things from my list, she likes to make jewelry and other hand crafted fashion accessories. That's not interesting to me but i feel good if i can help her when she asks me something when she is in a problem. Some of the passions we share, we discovered together.

Bottom line, there is one life that you are given. Don't spend it with wrong people, the ones that do not want to understand your perspective.

[fish fingers]

What kind of a woman would ask of you to deny your passion if she loves you ? It is one of those little signs that tells you "you shouldn't marry this one".

I mean, after one marriage that didn't work i'd be looking for a kindred soul to spend my life with that can understand me - not asking me to obey and negate my passion. For what reason, feng shui?

I wish it were that simple. My thai wife would go f ing mental if I stuck a huge pair of horns in our front room.
But I knew she was the one for me when dad was ill and she packed her job in and flew over to help. Sacrifices have to go '2 ways'

[Zvu]

I wish it were that simple. My thai wife would go f ing mental if I stuck a huge pair of horns in our front room.

Talk is the answer. I'd ask her the all important - why ? If there is a legit reason, then it is worth not doing it. Maybe if we lived in a very small apartment - but then i'd never build gigantic loudspeakers because i enjoy empty spaces. If the reason is "because i don't like how they look" - i told my wife that she'll be in charge for paint and looks of my speakers if looks is the problem. She liked the idea. I'm well aware that she could tell me to make them pink and paint flowers and butterflies on it , but hey, as you've said it - sacrifices have to go 2 ways

I really can't remember any other reason so maybe you should ask her.

[bvbellomo]

Speakers are important to me, but if I made a list of the top 10 reasons our marriage failed, speakers don't even make the top 10.

She was a lot more accepting before the wedding. I know Jon Marsh has the whole Doc Brown thing covered, but she bought me a Delorean tree ornament joking I reminded her of him. She was never that interested in most things, but always accepting of all of it.

Things got crazy fighting over the wedding arrangements, but I keep telling myself weddings are crazy and we'd be happy after. After we were married, she wouldn't even move in with me, and most everything I had or did went into the basement as a concession. From there it went to trying to fix our relationship. Now I realize I've spent 5 years trying to fix our relationship and I haven't even been married that long.

Anyhow, not sure what to expect next, but once the divorce is final, I plan to build something.

[Supernova]

I lived in Colorado from 72 through 1986, so I completely understand your viewpoint on this- Bravo to your wife, and to you for listening to her.

The Boise area reminds me of Colorado 40 years ago, so from that you can see my attraction to it. Even so, there is a growing emotional anchor in the Bay Area which may force me to consider dual residences when I finally do establish my Fortress of Solitude in the frozen wastes of Western Idaho some day... where summer temperatures rarely rise above 95F (too hot for some of the delicate flowers of the SF Bay Area...) :W

Life is strange, by turns challenging and rewarding.

And so far, as regards the new manager, my assessment is: Exceeds Expectations.


this is very welcome news from my perspective... there are some real challenges ahead, but also a lot of unexpected potential upside, that I never saw coming a few months ago...

That's interesting. We have been discussing whether to stay in New Zealand, where her family is located, or move back to the states. We still own our home in the Colorado Springs, but realize it's growing so fast and that's not ideal for us. We've talked about Idaho, Wyoming and Montana as alternatives, but know little about those states. We are going to give it another 6 months here and do a road trip to the south island for about 4 to 6 weeks.

As for the bay area, it has a lot to offer, not too far from the beach and just a few hours away from Tahoe, but boy is it expensive and crowded.

[JonMarsh]

Expensive and crowded sums it up well... though not so crowded as LA! But more expensive...

Too much of both for me...

[JonMarsh]

Speakers are important to me, but if I made a list of the top 10 reasons our marriage failed, speakers don't even make the top 10.

She was a lot more accepting before the wedding. I know Jon Marsh has the whole Doc Brown thing covered, but she bought me a Delorean tree ornament joking I reminded her of him. She was never that interested in most things, but always accepting of all of it.

Things got crazy fighting over the wedding arrangements, but I keep telling myself weddings are crazy and we'd be happy after. After we were married, she wouldn't even move in with me, and most everything I had or did went into the basement as a concession. From there it went to trying to fix our relationship. Now I realize I've spent 5 years trying to fix our relationship and I haven't even been married that long.

Anyhow, not sure what to expect next, but once the divorce is final, I plan to build something.

That sounds so familiar vis a vis my daughter's mother. My daughter and I have a great relationship, and she and her mom are not on speaking terms. I think that is diagnostic in some sense... at this point it's been so long ago, I couldn't care... success on your own terms with the people that count is what really matters.

[Scottg]

..I have all the equipment to measure, and enjoy crossover design, but I look at the cost of parts, especially high quality parts, for sub-20Hz drivers and then I see these little < $100 complete crossovers.

Considering ScanSpeak's 13" inch subwoofer, the new Peerless, any of the Dayton products, and many others. I want high quality, low distortion, accurate drivers that play full range. While I listen loud, I don't listen at ear-splitting levels, and my equipment so far (high end Yamaha receiver, HSU MK3 sub) has been more than enough.

While I do want to build something big, I don't want a refrigerator. Something bigger than it optimal from an engineering standpoint is stupid. And if I could save front-to-back space, it would help. But I want something that stands on the floor and puts my tweeters at ear level.

I'm not saying this is "your" design, based on your requirements, but rather that it is similar to your requirements and most importantly - look at the crossover as something that could work for you for your own design (scroll to bottom):

http://www.customanalogue.com/elsinore/elsinore_index.htm

-other than the Impedance correction portion of the crossover, you've really only got the tweeter's filter with smaller capacitance values. The midrange and bass sections are 1st order electrical for the signal: just an inductor for each and no high-pass filter. (..this does of course require driver's in the midrange that extend well into the treble.) Other than the Impedance correction filter, total parts value cost can be modest - even with more costly parts.

The tweeter crossover is also interesting, and reminds me of Lipinski monitors.

http://www.customanalogue.com/elsinore/elsinore_19.htm

https://www.stereophile.com/standloudspeakers/1205lipinski/index.html

https://www.stereophile.com/content/lipinski-sound-l-707-loudspeaker-measurements

[bvbellomo]

The Aurasound woofers are no longer available

Am I missing something? These appear to be back in stock at several places, and appear to have been for over a year. Are they not the same thing as the old ones? Not sure if they make sense in a 3-way in a 500 square foot room, but they are fun to think about.

[CraigJ]

Am I missing something? These appear to be back in stock at several places, and appear to have been for over a year. Are they not the same thing as the old ones? Not sure if they make sense in a 3-way in a 500 square foot room, but they are fun to think about.

I believe this is the speaker in question; Aurasound NS12-513-4A.

[JonMarsh]

Am I missing something? These appear to be back in stock at several places, and appear to have been for over a year. Are they not the same thing as the old ones? Not sure if they make sense in a 3-way in a 500 square foot room, but they are fun to think about.

The big 18" subwoofers are available several places, but I haven't seen the Aurasound NS12-513-4A anywhere. If you know of someone that carries them, I'd be very curious to know, and how they're priced. I had a set of 4 of the 10" drivers, and sold them to a guy also living in Danville who saw me discussing them on this forum; he wanted them for the mid bass for a big 4 way build. Interesting fellow...

[bvbellomo]

The NS12s occasionally show up on eBay and such. I am not mass producing these and not opposed to using a discontinue part. The NS18s are probably overkill, but fun to think about. Both are too low sensitivity to make much sense with my c173s, and if I don't keep those, I will probably build off RS270s.

[JonMarsh]

A reasonable basis for the bottom end

RS270's will require a rather large enclosure to get good LF extension. They are truly suited to monkey coffins... maybe gorilla coffins.


The RSS315HF-4 models pretty well with the RSS315-PR. Let's say use the -2 configuration for weights.

With the original Isiris cabinet volume of 110L, getting a roughly -3dB point at 30Hz seems quite feasible. Sensitivity is about 89 dB/2.83VRMS, for two wired in series. This gives a pretty easy load to drive. This is the configuration used in the Isiris and the Wavecor Ardent, two 4 ohm drivers in series, as the resulting final crossover network won't make amplifiers want to puke, unlike, say, the Avalon Indra.

You still have to factor in baffle step compensation.

[bvbellomo]

RS270's will require a rather large enclosure to get good LF extension. They are truly suited to monkey coffins... maybe gorilla coffins.


The RSS315HF-4 models pretty well with the RSS315-PR. Let's say use the -2 configuration for weights.

With the original Isiris cabinet volume of 110L, getting a roughly -3dB point at 30Hz seems quite feasible. Sensitivity is about 89 dB/2.83VRMS, for two wired in series. This gives a pretty easy load to drive. This is the configuration used in the Isiris and the Wavecor Ardent, two 4 ohm drivers in series, as the resulting final crossover network won't make amplifiers want to puke, unlike, say, the Avalon Indra.

You still have to factor in baffle step compensation.

Your first one after a break up is a rebound. That doesn't mean things can't work out long term, but I need to realize my judgement is off. Right now I am really attracted to gorilla coffins.

A single rs315-8 is spec'd at f3 of 40hz in 1.54 cu feet and 85.7db.
An rs390-4 gets me to 37hz at 2.88 cu feet and 91.2.
An rs270-4 gets me to 64hz at 0.51 cu feet and 89.2 db.

This is just from their website, no modeling. So the rs270 works in a much smaller box at the cost of extension. 2x rs315 and rs390 give me similar extension, efficiency and box size, with the 390 giving a smaller box but the 2x315 giving a better shaped box. I still wonder if the $500 scanspeak woofer is worth considering.

I don't see myself investing in the type of amp you like. Decent solid state drives 2 ohm loads fine, and 8ohm drivers doubles my inductor cost. If I use the c173, ideally I'd cross 2nd order at 200hz, but go higher if inductor cost is ridiculous.

Room issues are much bigger than baffle step compensation, and these will be actively equalized for home theater, music below 40hz is rare. So extension matters, especially compared to the c173s, which are only clean and flat to 100hz, but only matters so much.

[fish fingers]

The paper/kevlar cone RS270's don't need a huge box and still go reasonably deep.

Or how about 2x satori WO24p-8 in an isobaric - 26Hz f3 / 36litres..

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

[bvbellomo]

Why does everyone think the aluminum RS270's need a huge box? Huge is relative, but I don't see anything about these that indicates a larger box than anything else talked about on this thread. The Satori's look good but very similar to the RS270's. Probably were I'd be starting from without the C173s.

In Ohio, humidity is literally 0 in Winter, very high in Spring, and we get several weeks with Winter and Spring switching back and forth. Paper cones make me a little nervous. Anyone have practical experience or knowledge?

[bvbellomo]

Does anyone know how high the 390s can be crossed? Cone breakup looks like 1800Hz, with metal drivers, that could mean a trainwreck playing anything near 1000Hz, or reasonably well controlled to 2000Hz. Obviously I won't cross anywhere near that high, but it makes a big difference on where I can cross 2nd order and whether 1st order is possible.

A trainwreck 20db down is still a trainwreck.

[bvbellomo]

Can anyone tell me about the Scanspeak 30W? Looks very similar to the 32W, but half the price. The 32W barely got any attention on this forum, and no one even mentioned the 30W.

I only found 1 article with measurements:

http://www.audiocomponents.nl/download/scan-speak/30W-4558T00%20-%20Hobby%20HiFi%202011-4.pdf

vs the 32W, it looks really good:

http://www.audiocomponents.nl/download/scan-speak/32W-4878T00%20-%20Hobby%20HiFi%202013-5.pdf

[bigburner]

My wife and I have decided to end our marriage. I have thousands of things going through my head right now, but at least 1 is that I no longer need to worry about the size of my speakers.

I can't offer you any advice on speakers but I can recommend an appropriate CD to listen to once you have the new speakers in place - "Separate Ways" by Teddy Thompson. The anguish of separation caused him to write and record an exceptional album IMHO.

Nigel.

[bvbellomo]

I can't offer you any advice on speakers but I can recommend an appropriate CD to listen to once you have the new speakers in place - "Separate Ways" by Teddy Thompson. The anguish of separation caused him to write and record an exceptional album IMHO.

Nigel.

Thanks, the title was meant as a Journey reference, but I will give it a listen, possibly before the new speakers are in place.

[bvbellomo]

A 32W/4878T has the magnet 6 inches from the back of the front baffle. Can anyone help me determine how much space would I need between the magnet and the back of the box? I'd prefer making the box taller and wider, not too deep. From my understanding, not a lot of space should be needed, but I don't think I can test that without making 2 complete boxes to compare measurements.

I decided against the Discovery subwoofer, it measures nicely for something without a shorting ring, but I am starting to think this is a must-have for a high-end low distortion driver.

[nopomo]

I decided against the Discovery subwoofer, it measures nicely for something without a shorting ring, but I am starting to think this is a must-have for a high-end low distortion driver.

You are mistaken—the Discovery subwoofers have shorting rings. The two drivers don't seem too far apart in terms of HD: 30W vs. 32W. Maybe higher drive levels would reveal greater differences.

Have you considered the Peerless SDF-250F75PR01-06 (it's also based on the XLS but with a 3" coil) or the SB Acoustics SB34NRXL75-8? The SB34 ("L") appears to use the same motor as the SB42 and that's fared well in testing by VC and HiFiCompass.

[bvbellomo]

You are mistaken—the Discovery subwoofers have shorting rings. The two drivers don't seem too far apart in terms of HD: 30W vs. 32W. Maybe higher drive levels would reveal greater differences.

Have you considered the Peerless SDF-250F75PR01-06 (it's also based on the XLS but with a 3" coil) or the SB Acoustics SB34NRXL75-8? The SB34 ("L") appears to use the same motor as the SB42 and that's fared well in testing by VC and HiFiCompass.

I made a bad guess looking at impedance graph, now I see "Aluminum Short Circuiting Ring" advertised on the specs. This is a very similar driver then, but more similar to the 26w which measured nicely, but nowhere near as nice as the Relevator.

The peerless is another nice driver, but with high FS, I don't think I can get the same extension. I want a sealed box, and the SB34NRXL75-8 seems to want ported.

The SB42 itself is an interesting choice, but not as nice as the Relevator, the same price, and VC says it needs a shorting ring.

The more I think about my time and the cost of other components, the less overpriced the Relevator is.

[bvbellomo]

Can anyone tell me the difference between using a 32W/4878T01 and a 32W/4878T in a 3-way?

A 32W/4878T01 has higher sensitivity, which might help, but not much.

The 32W/4878T has more XMax and bottom end extension (sealed F3 45Hz vs 65Hz on the advertisers spec sheet) which is a huge difference if these are used without a sub. But I think a dedicated sub is worth the space for HT below 60Hz, at this price the cost is small relative to the rest of the system, and if I am going to have one, I am not sure how much the XMax and bottom end matter.

What I am really wondering is the hard-to-measure differences - things people say are 'subjective' but probably could be objectively measured. Will the 32W/4878T01 sound faster, more accurate or more dynamic?

I asked the vendor this same question and they made a big deal about using something marketed as a subwoofer as a woofer, vs a true woofer. I am not sure if I buy it - isn't the 32W/4878T01 just a 32W/4878T with a lighter cone?

[JonMarsh]

I would check online for swept distortion measurements for the drivers you're considering if I was you...

If I was me, (which I am) I'd just measure them and decide. If it was close. But really, the design intent should make the decision up for you right away. IM, HD, nonlinear resonance, all of these things are a factor.

It's a 2:1 difference in Xmax, and a big difference in LF cutoff even for pretty large enclosures. IF you want these to go low without a sub, then it seems like the 4878T is the reasonable choice. If you're building a PA system for your living room, with something like big 15's on the bottom, then the 4878T01 should be fun...

[bvbellomo]

I would check online for swept distortion measurements for the drivers you're considering if I was you...

If I was me, (which I am) I'd just measure them and decide. If it was close. But really, the design intent should make the decision up for you right away. IM, HD, nonlinear resonance, all of these things are a factor.

It's a 2:1 difference in Xmax, and a big difference in LF cutoff even for pretty large enclosures. IF you want these to go low without a sub, then it seems like the 4878T is the reasonable choice. If you're building a PA system for your living room, with something like big 15's on the bottom, then the 4878T01 should be fun...

Thanks. Either driver is a reasonable choice, so maybe I am getting too hung up on that.

The 32W/4878T distortion is online, the best for a low frequency driver I've seen. HD3 is 50db down at 110db.
That doesn't mean the 4878T01 isn't better, just that I doubt it is significantly better, or if it was, how much it could help real world listening.

I am not completely opposed to buying both, measuring and selling/returning the one I don't keep. But what would I measure? Transient response, dynamics, 'fast' sounding bass, other things that can't be measured or I don't know how? Besides efficiency and effects on Q, what is benefit of a lighter cone?

Madisound said "The 30W/4558T is designated as a subwoofer, and primarily designed to be used as a separately powered subwoofer driver as opposed to a woofer in a 3-way. The 32W/4878T-01 is designed for use as a woofer. While it could be used as a sub, Scan offers a different model of this driver (32W/4878T-00) for that purpose. ... This isn't to say you couldn't make the 30W/4558T work as a woofer in a 3-way, but it might be an uphill challenge compared to implementing a woofer instead." I disagree, but also acknowledge they have more knowledge and experience.

[JonMarsh]

Madisounds distinction is rather arbitrary, and probably geared to guiding relatively inexperienced people.

My best three way speaker designs all use woofers that have been designated by so called pundits as subwoofer drivers, though in relatively moderate Xmax- 11-14mm.

I wouldn't make assumptions about the T-01 LF distortion without measuring them. With half the Xmax, due to a shorter VC, sensitivity is higher, but inductivity modulation may be higher, too.

"Fast Bass" is something of an oxymoron in terms of describing what's going on- it's mainly about the system Q at Fb, and what the alignment and the resulting ringing in the step function. If true fast bass is your goal, only consider sealed or a very low tuning frequency for a ported or PR system, well below most of the low frequency program material. Unibox is a good guide for studying the impact of different alignments.

Often people would expect that a lighter woofer cone might mean "faster" behavior more faithful as regard linear response (SPL versus frequency) but the T01 has some rather high Q cone modes, which will result in distortion products resonant amplification- and its very visible in the ripples in the impedance curve.

Sorry, I'd pass on that driver. Especially for the money, I think you'd be better off with even a Dayton RSS315FH-4. Or two of them, wired in series; then the crossover impedance will be relatively amplifier friendly.

And if you are willing to work with a 4 ohm load, use two of the 8 ohm HF in parallel. You'll still have 14mm of Xmax, and with sensitivity parameters optimized for larger enclosures.

[nopomo]

Hobby HiFi measured it, too.

The Peerless/Vifa NE315W looks pretty good by comparison. The 8-ohm version would be more suitable for a sealed cabinet, which is convenient because that's the one that PE carries.