Anyone interested in designing a smaller WTMW center?

[Hdale85]

I'm thinking of building some NatalieP's and Modula MT's for my HT setup but the center channel options that are optimal 3 way designs are very large. Was wondering if anyone thought about or would be willing to design a crossover for a WTMW that used the RS28A, RS125's, and RS75 for mid range. OR does anyone think this design would be good enough to match up to some NatP's for HT duty?

https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-rs125-4-5-reference-woofer-4-ohm--295-370

Maybe even the truncated to get the spacing even closer?

https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-rs125t-8-5-reference-woofer-truncated-frame--295-340

Truncated mid

https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-rs75t-8-3-reference-full-range-driver-truncated-frame--295-336

Can even get a truncated plate for the RS28

https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-rs28tf-truncated-faceplate-for-rs-tweeters--275-138

So should be able to get nice spacing in a smaller cabinet size that might actually fit some TV stands out there lol. Although it appears the RS28A is not available anymore? So we'd have to use the RS28F which is fine as it's a drop in replacement for the NatalieP's. I imagine it should fit in the .75 cu ft PE cabinets, maybe a smaller enclosure for custom built.

[technodanvan]

What sort of volume levels are we talking about here? I would think a single RS75 might have a problem with the levels some people are interested in, and I'm not convinced it would offer any tangible improvement over simply an MTM with RS125s. What sort of dimensions are you limited to?

[Hdale85]

Not necessarily limited by size, Just didn't want an enormous center channel in my living room setup. I wouldn't imagine the RS75 in only midrange duty would have issues with output? But I imagine you could probably fit an RS100 as well if using all truncated mounting plates. This will of course be crossed to a sub so really only need output down to a bit below 80hz. I doubt I'd be pushing anything close to 100dB normally.

[Hdale85]

I didn't really want to go with an MTM because off axis performance is somewhat important to me.

[technodanvan]

Well in all fairness I barely know what I'm talking about, just playing devil's advocate until someone who knows something about stuff swings on by.

I believe someone made a waveguide for the RS28 series, though I don't know if it's still available.

[Hdale85]

A 3" midrange should likely be capable of very loud output in a 3 way generally lol. I'm not sure a waveguide is really needed. I want these to timbre match the NatP's.

[Hdale85]

Seems like 2 RS150's with an RS100T and an RS28FT would fit in a .75 cu ft MTM cabinet from PE pretty well. So that's probably what' I'd try and go for if possible.

[JonMarsh]

That a sounds like a good suggestion-

Something to keep in mind is the difficulty of building a small three way crossover... that phrase is something of an Oxymoron.

I should revisit the Neo D CC design, see if I can find good contemporary drivers to work in it. The HiVi D6.8B should work (other than price- but the bass performance is deep and linear for a smallish enclosure) - I'd be more inclined to use the new Dayton Esoteric, though. one of the new SB tweeters or SS could cover the top end. Not inexpensive. And don't forget, currently no RS28a is available, though they are working on a substitute.

Have to give that a little thought... even finding time for that is tough lately! That's what the NeoD CC was designed for, as center channel, though I never got around to using them that way! I'd probably look at redoing the crossover to something more like a simplified Ardent crossover...

But I will need a new CC some day... and CC is important, a lot of center channel dialog and stuff going on.

Stay tuned...

[Hdale85]

Yeah I know you've been busy and have a lot of life stuff going on which is why I didn't just send you a message.

The NeoDcc is nice for sure, kind of expensive though. Would it not sound quite a bit different than the NatP's?

I know the RS28A is not around currently, was just figuring I'd use the silk dome version. Kind of sucks that they got rid of it because of how many designs here use it! Going to have a lot of stuff to update maybe?

[Steve Manning]

Yeah I know you've been busy and have a lot of life stuff going on which is why I didn't just send you a message.

The NeoDcc is nice for sure, kind of expensive though. Would it not sound quite a bit different than the NatP's?

I know the RS28A is not around currently, was just figuring I'd use the silk dome version. Kind of sucks that they got rid of it because of how many designs here use it! Going to have a lot of stuff to update maybe?

I actually touched base with Dayton and they are moving the manufacturing of the RS28 to another location. Along with that move, they plan on making a few tweaks to improve performance. They did not have a "when" this would all occur.

[Jim Holtz]

I actually touched base with Dayton and they are moving the manufacturing of the RS28 to another location. Along with that move, they plan on making a few tweaks to improve performance. They did not have a "when" this would all occur.

Hi Steve,

I don't know how forth coming whoever you talked to was, but I also heard a very reliable rumor that the Rs28F's will soon be gone and there won't be any replacement for about a year. Usher was the manufacturer and they closed their doors. They were recently purchased and are under new ownership who are trying to get production back up and running. But, that puts Dayton replacements out up to 12 months I was told.

That puts a couple designs that Curt and I have done in limbo. I like the RS28F a lot and am sorry to see it fade away, However there are a number of other tweeters at the same price point that could be substituted with a crossover redesign by someone other than us. No drop in's that I'm aware of. For center channel's, Statements II center would be a great choice since they're all voiced the same.

Jim

[Jonasz]

I believe I read on this forum many moons ago the Vifa XT25 is a drop in as long as the crossover is high enough. I can remember wrong though, it's happened before...

[JonMarsh]

Looking at current drivers, I think this would be feasible to do with the new Esoteric 7" woofers, given that the operating range will more or less avoid the resonance around 1kHz. RS52 still on the midrange; there might be any number of smaller tweeters that might work, some from SB Acoustics, for example, or if you wanted to spend a bit, maybe one of the newer small form factor Scanspeaks.

Now, if you wanted to go pricey, we have some options for you...

Consider the Accuton AS168 Cell woofers... very nice, and will work even better with the Duelund crossover approach than the Esoterics, due to how the acoustic origin is managed.




This could wind up being a real gem, or diamond in the not so rough- the Sd is about 3/4 of the AS190, but the price is 5/9. Definitely a better value proposition. And a pair can model decently (especially for a center channel) in a 30L enclosure.

I have a pair on order- or rather, back order- not in stock at Madisound. If they have the superb off axis dispersion and very low distortion of the AS190, this will be an interesting driver to work with.

It would be ironic if I get something done with these before anything with the AS190, but such is life...

Steve and I are also thinking about a possible two way, with a custom waveguide built by him, though even with a very low crossover point I tend to doubt it would work all that well as a lay down center channel.

Wonder how long it will take to get them in? I'm guessing several weeks to a month, depending on stock in Germany...

And I have some maple piano pin block ply on hand that would be perfect for the front baffle, going either way...

[Hdale85]

Lol, I was hoping for something closer to NatP money. I mean I know it's a 3Way so it's not going to be quite as cheap, but Accuton certainly isn't in my vocabulary right now lol.

[technodanvan]

That escalated quickly!

[JonMarsh]

No reason someone couldn't do something with the RS180 and RS52 and small form factor tweeter- just remember that a three way always sets a higher cost floor because of the crossover- and dealing with the RS180 breakup modes raises the bar compared to better behaved mid woofers.


If I was to do a revised NeoD CC, I'd go with the new Esoteric 7", I think. need to model it in the box to confirm that, but the specs look Ok. It's less expensive than the newer HiVi D6.8, at least.

Now, if you have the ability to have the center channel vertical, just use a NatP to save money. Or, if you don't need a wide listening area, let's say there's just you and one other person that likes to sit close to you, then a NatP laid down is OK- just don't expect good lateral dispersion in the crossover region (1800 Hz) with that format. And that's an important area for speech.


And yeah, I escalated a bit, perhaps too much, but geez, guys, we already have so many WMTW CC's to choose from already with modestly priced drivers.... and TEK and others have been pestering me for something to go with the Ardent's in a compact form factor. This might do it nicely... :T

[Hdale85]

I mean...if we could get a MTM and matching center design that could be done in PE cabinets using the Esoterics for ~1500 parts cost I'd be all for it Most of Jon's stuff that falls outside the NatP and Modula MT don't generally fit that budget though. Love his stuff but aint got that kind of spare cash currently lol.

[Ray_D]

Zd3c

No reason someone couldn't do something with the RS180 and RS52 and small form factor tweeter- just remember that a three way always sets a higher cost floor because of the crossover- and dealing with the RS180 breakup modes raises the bar compared to better behaved mid woofers. :T

Look at the ZD3C; it has been around for a long time and is excellent: http://www.zaphaudio.com/ZDT3.5.html

[fbov]

... get a MTM and matching center design that ... fit that budget ...

Then give in, compromise, and build the Modula MTM CC. It works very well, at a price equal to a pair of NatP's.

Yes, you said no MTMs, but this one's different. Jon did it right, without exceeding driver limits. Crossover is 1100Hz, 1300Hz in my on-wall version, while the M-M center distance of 9" corresponds to 1506Hz. Despite the low crossover, that little tweeter shows no sign of distortion to my HD-sensitive ears. Even the wife noticed a marked improvement in dialog intelligibility - just what you want in a CC.

HAve fun,
Frank

[fish fingers]

I'm using the 7" esoterics in a compact tower build with a 3" eton hexcone and ribbon. I cd see a nice centre channel with this combo.. maybe overkill I dunno

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[agrippa]

Or you could use this 7". Since Jon pulled an accuton out I thought this one would be fun to work with. Any guesses?

[olu78]

That driver is the woofer from Paradigm's flagship Persona speaker series.

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[agrippa]

That driver is the woofer from Paradigm's flagship Persona speaker series.

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Winner. Beryllium frame. Not cheap

[TEK]

And yeah, I escalated a bit, perhaps too much, but geez, guys, we already have so many WMTW CC's to choose from already with modestly priced drivers.... and TEK and others have been pestering me for something to go with the Ardent's in a compact form factor. This might do it nicely...

With the numbers of Ardents beeing buildt I assume that there are a number of us (including me) that are interested in a matching center channel - although maybe not quite what the thread starter was looking for :W

[Carl V]

With the numbers of Ardents beeing buildt I assume that there are a number of us (including me) that are interested in a matching center channel - although maybe not quite what the thread starter was looking for :W

I believe Rick Craig did one for one of the ARDENT guys.
In addition Rick has other Center Channels that might appeal.
Salk has Some ambitious Center Channels in his SoundScape series.

[5th element]

Winner. Beryllium frame. Not cheap

I believe the midrange and tweeters use Be diaphragms but the woofer does not. And none of them use a Be frame.

[agrippa]

hmmm.... I think the frame is Beryllium unless their video is wrong

[fish fingers]

hmmm.... I think the frame is Beryllium unless their video is wrong

Something is, because making a frame from an astronomically expensive and toxic material doesn't make any sense.

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[Hdale85]

Hmm, well now I'm not sure what I'll do seems the RS28's are no longer available lol. I keep going back and forth on build vs buy..... It's been a while since I've built a speaker.