Center Channel Choices

[scary]

Hi all, I need all the advice and opinions you can give me:

I want to build a center channel speaker for a living rm that is open to a dining rm, kitchen and 2 hallways. 10 ft ceilings, hardwood floors. Yikes! I'm currently running a pair of home made 3 ways with twin 5.5" woofers for L&R, a Def Tech 8040 center. and a couple of home made 2 ways for surrounds. 12" sealed sub. Yamaha Aventage RX-A550 receiver. It sounds pretty good for music, but sucks for HT. (can't hear the dialogue clearly)

Music and HT are about 50/50, but I must say, my most urgent need is to hear dialogue clearly. My choices for center channels are as follows:

Speakers from Meniscus, including Swope 3 way center, Blues MTM. or maybe Mandolin MTM
The other alternative is Fusion Alchemy 8 Center (wave guide/compression drivers, 8"woofers)
Or maybe a Jim Holtz design like the Finalist

I'm pretty flexible on dimensions, but I wonder if my Yamaha can handle a 4 ohm (or so) load.

Please share your thoughts on this problem!!!!!!!!!!!

LF

[Jim Holtz]

If you have room for the Finalist/Anthology center it has excellent clarity and overall performance. Caution! It might give you the urge to build more speakers. :W

I can't comment on any of the other speakers listed. Perhaps builders of those centers can chime in?

BTW, I often get all the credit for the designs Curt and I develop. Curt is the genius, I just do the heavy lifting so he gets all the credit for the excellent sound quality.

Jim

[Tony ray]

I built the finalist centre and its the best upgrade I have ever added. Did not realize how much comes out of the centre channel until I added it. A fun build to.

[Jim Holtz]

Hi Tony,

Beautiful job! I'm glad you're enjoying it. :T

Jim

[cjd]

I don't think any of the options you're considering will disappoint.

Depending on size, a couple of the designs I've done could also fit the bill - the Khancenter (WTMW) or the Arbouriou

I want to note that what concerns me more is how well any center voice-matches your mains (you say "home made" which could be good, bad, or anywhere in between). Curt/Jim have some incredible results with their collaborations and they're very balanced - slightly differently than many of my designs (especially those targeting HT use, where I balance toward vocal clarity at lower output levels...) but all within a good discussion's range on the merits of various compromises. I can extend that to the Swope and the others (I think I've heard the Blues but am not sure, pretty sure I've not heard the Mandolin). Depending on your mains, this may or may not be an entirely good thing. Or, it'll prompt you to build new mains.

Most (all?) of these designs are likely benign 4ohm loads - unless you're *really* cranking it up, the Yamaha should be fine.

[scary]

Thank you all for your advice

I don't think any of the options you're considering will disappoint.

Depending on size, a couple of the designs I've done could also fit the bill - the Khancenter (WTMW) or the Arbouriou

I want to note that what concerns me more is how well any center voice-matches your mains (you say "home made" which could be good, bad, or anywhere in between). Curt/Jim have some incredible results with their collaborations and they're very balanced - slightly differently than many of my designs (especially those targeting HT use, where I balance toward vocal clarity at lower output levels...) but all within a good discussion's range on the merits of various compromises. I can extend that to the Swope and the others (I think I've heard the Blues but am not sure, pretty sure I've not heard the Mandolin). Depending on your mains, this may or may not be an entirely good thing. Or, it'll prompt you to build new mains.

Most (all?) of these designs are likely benign 4ohm loads - unless you're *really* cranking it up, the Yamaha should be fine.

I really appreciate the input. I wish I could describe the mains better, but I didn't build them and don't know the pedigree of the drivers. Crossovers are off the shelf. Cabinets are very well built, with individual ported chambers for each driver. They sound pretty good, but the bug is taking hold, and I'll probably build a set of mains next to match the center. One thing I am glad to see, is that my Yamaha will be able to handle (most) 4 ohm loads. Concern for the amp was what got me looking at the Fusions, plus there are some nice towers that I can add later.

My method for deciding on something like this is to seek as much advice and data as possible, then decide for myself. Thanks again, guys. I'll post a build thread as I get farther into this project.

LF

[scary]

All,

Thank you very much for your advice - just what I needed. I didn't mention that next, I will build a set of towers to match the center. One thing I didn't hear was comments on compression drivers and wave guides. Since they are so sensitive, I thought they would be a shoe in. Would like to see what others think. Chime in..

It's nice to know my present amp will be ok for now, so I can concentrate on building a center. Will post updates of the build.

Thanks again Guys,
LF

[cjd]

All,

Thank you very much for your advice - just what I needed. I didn't mention that next, I will build a set of towers to match the center. One thing I didn't hear was comments on compression drivers and wave guides. Since they are so sensitive, I thought they would be a shoe in. Would like to see what others think. Chime in..

It's nice to know my present amp will be ok for now, so I can concentrate on building a center. Will post updates of the build.

Thanks again Guys,
LF

How loud do you listen?

I doubt you're going to find compression drivers helpful without room treatment and space, but a waveguide might do you well... IF you can find a design using one.

I've sustained over 110dB (I think I peaked at around 116) with hearing protection, because that's just stupidly insanely loud and there's no way I'd ever want to get close to that for actually watching a movie. It wasn't for long and the tweeters started getting edgy (probably from heat) but... anyhow, what are your target levels such that anything beyond ~88-90dB@2.83v@1M is helpful? I know the Khan series is in that range and I'd bet the rest is too (without looking... I'm lazy).

[fbov]

...I wish I could describe the mains better, ...Crossovers are off the shelf....

That's all we really need to know. All designs we discuss here will have custom XO design based on measured driver electrical and acoustic response.

...One thing I didn't hear was comments on compression drivers and wave guides. Since they are so sensitive, I thought they would be a shoe in....

As cjd states, you don't need pro drivers to get really loud in residential spaces.

From there, preference becomes critical. I don't like compression drivers, yet they are very popular in DIY circles. Maybe our tastes vary? Therefore I suggest you do some comparative listening, to see what kinds of drivers sound good to you. Then look for speakers that use those driver types. There is no perfect speaker, but some fit your taste better than others.

The best place to do this is at a DIY speaker event. You'll likely have to travel, but it's worth it if you want to see a bunch of speaker designs, and talk with their designers. Quality varies from museum pieces to bare MDF, and sound quality varies even more. Highly recommended. Iowa is in October, I think.

http://www.midwestaudioclub.com/events/iowa2016/

Have fun,
Frank

[scary]

My greatest concern is compression drivers and waveguides

That's all we really need to know. All designs we discuss here will have custom XO design based on measured driver electrical and acoustic response.


As cjd states, you don't need pro drivers to get really loud in residential spaces.

From there, preference becomes critical. I don't like compression drivers, yet they are very popular in DIY circles. Maybe our tastes vary? Therefore I suggest you do some comparative listening, to see what kinds of drivers sound good to you. Then look for speakers that use those driver types. There is no perfect speaker, but some fit your taste better than others.

The best place to do this is at a DIY speaker event. You'll likely have to travel, but it's worth it if you want to see a bunch of speaker designs, and talk with their designers. Quality varies from museum pieces to bare MDF, and sound quality varies even more. Highly recommended. Iowa is in October, I think.

http://www.midwestaudioclub.com/events/iowa2016/

Have fun,
Frank

After taking all the advice into consideration, I have narrowed my choices to:

Fusion Alchemy 8
1- Denovo DNA-205: $34
1- Denovo EOS-8 waveguide: $11.50
1- Set of crossover parts: $40.02
1- Slot port: $3
1- CNC cut front baffle: $14


Or a Swope Center 3 way:
1 x Dayton, ND28 tweeter
1 x Hi-Vi, M5a Midrange
2 x Hi-Vi, M6a Woofers
1 x Crossover parts, using PulsX caps and suggested inductors

Both look good, get great reviews, and have similar costs. The problem I have is getting to listen to examples of each. (I can't travel to shows in other states; Magnolia doesn't have anything close.) Fusion offers a convenient flat pack, and would be easiest on the Yamaha. There are also some Fusion towers I have a Jones for.. I'm not going to do much with the room, other than add some rugs. My listening occurs at moderate levels, but again, Its a large area.

The Swope is more conventional and would be easier to match with my existing system---dum da doo...

[scary]

After lots of searching, I'm finding plenty of wonderful designs. The Zaph ZA5.3c looks great, and I like the matching tower choices. I'm sure it would do the job for me, but like most of the others, it is a 4 ohm speaker. The Yamaha is a pretty good amp, but does not have pre-amp outs, so no way to use a power amp (that I know of) I don't want to get forced into buying a whole new receiver/amp system. So that leaves me with the Fusion waveguide as the only 8 ohm speaker with matching fronts.

I read how important it is to match the 'voicing' of the LCR, so I wonder how that is quantified. How does one look at the specs for one and know it will work with others of a different brand? I'm anxious to build something, just not anxious to waste a lot of money.

Thanks for listening
LF

[scottvalentin]

I honestly don't think the Yahama will have a problem with a 4 ohm load. The Aventage line is really well built. I have Pioneer Elite receiver and have never had any trouble with it driving mains and centre overnight sensation MTMs which are 4 ohm.

[scary]

Thanks Scott. I am coming to the same conclusion. Now that I've decided to commit to 4 ohms, I have more choices.

[Steve Manning]

I've had numerous Yamaha units and have typically run nothing but 4 ohm speakers with them and have had no issues. It seems that most of their units have a select-able output for speaker loads, either in software (these days) or switch in the older units.

[fbov]

After taking all the advice into consideration, I have narrowed my choices to:

Fusion Alchemy 8 ... Or a Swope Center 3 way ...

The Swope wins this one... hard to beat a vertical TM section for CC's if you want a uniform sound field in the listening area.

The Alchemy 8 CC has a narrow uniform listening area, about +/- 15 degrees. The issue is due to wave interference between the cone radiators. The horn has to be sideways, for HF dispersion, which pushes the cone drivers even farther apart.

In an MTM, M-M center distance has a negative effect on frequency response as frequency rises. When there is a 1/2 wavelength difference in the distance sound travels to your ear from one driver compared with the other, that frequency cancels out; nothing is audible. The farther apart the drivers, the lower in frequency this effect starts, and the greater the negative impact on sound quality.

Swope CC is a 13" C-C spacing and a 350 Hz XO. C-C < 3x XO wavelength, so no issue.
My CC is a 9" C-C spacing and a 1.1 kHz XO. It works well because C-C < XO wavelength.
The Alchemy Center is a 17" C-C spacing, and the 1.4 kHz crossover, a 9.7" wavelength. C-C >> XO wavelength

Audioholics has a couple papers you may want to read.
Speaker impedance switches

http://www.audioholics.com/audio-amplifier/impedance-selector-switch-1

Center channel design comparison

http://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/vertical-vs-horizontal-speaker-designs

and

http://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/center-channel-designs

Have fun,
Frank